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This side-bar needs to close - right now.

Since when did facts become 'rascist'; - I made NO rascist comment - none whatsoever and I will NOT be accused of that - that is libellous and I will not have it.

I did not mention any group by name - and as that 'group' is NOT  a race - even though I mentioned facts and nothing more, nothing I said could possibly be regarded as rascist.

That is libel.


I think it is extremely sad to see the European dream die;  it was a wonderful idea while it was restricted to 6 or 7 very similar in culture, standard of living and background of 6 or 7 countries.

It became flawed when it expanded, and was infiltrated by power-mad ideologues who had their own fixed ideas -

and refused to listen to the ordinary people.

Why a dream - that should have been kept to 6 or 7 countries - was destroyed by the power-hungry is something historians will write about in 100 years time.

For now, BECAUSE the power-hungry, ego-mad elites did NOT listen to the concerns of ordinary people - they are the ones to blame for the destruction of the dream -and ALSO for the far-right - AND far-left political parties.

When ordinary people are ignored they are forced into extremes.   Maybe if we had had people in charge who were more concerned with the ordinary citizens of their countries and listened - then maybe we would not find ourselves in the situation we are now in.

It is the fault of the power-mad, ego-driven, ideological twits - they never listened to their own people.

Funny how there are now remarks from Corbyn, and the eu 5 Presidents actually admitting that 'maybe, possibly, the eu needs reform'.

Well if they had listened in the past 10 years the dream would not have died.   But to see the eu now trying to work with 27 countries, with 5 more accession countries, plus Turkey (european ?), plus extending its tentacles into North Africa really should make us all stop and think.

The UK citizens have given a b---y nose to the autokrats - funny how it's the Brits yet again, like 1914 and 1939 has to take action to rescue european citizens, and give them back their democracy and self-rule.

Still love the Chines curse - 'May you live in interesting times'....

We just need to stop panicking;  reciprical arrangements have always existed between countries;  as for selling our homes - don't the French buy homes, or the Dutch, or the Germans, or the Spanish.   Would be interesting to know the numbers about how many French properties, owned by Brits, are actually sold each year.

We've all had the chance of an adventure, we're all rather independent and have the 'can do' attitude otherwise we wouldn't have taken this adventure anyway.

We'll survive, our country won't throw us to the French wolves;  the UK stock market has rebounded, the european stock-market is in trouble - but it'll settle back down once people have time to take stock.   Life will go on, exporting and importing will go on, businesses will function (and I hope the Ford Transit factory which was moved from the UK to Turkey - WITH EU FUNDING - has problems.

Have a lovely afternoon everyone - enjoy life while we can - there's always worse...................................!!!
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But it would seem that it is a done deal. There is a petition with over a million votes:

The petition, set up by William Oliver Healey, states: "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60%, based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum."

Thursday saw a 72.2% turnout, significantly higher than the 66.1% turnout at last year's general election, but below the 75% mark suggested by Mr Healey as a threshold.

This is reported on the BBC website:


Now, if it was the older generation that voted LEAVE they may have second thoughts now that it is being rumoured that the BoE will put the interest rate down to 0% which will lower interest rates for their savings and they will normally be the ones with the largest savings.

As the petition has exceeded 100,000 signatures it will be considered by Parliament.

As to Mr Junckers telling the UK to get on with it, it is up to the UK to invoke Article 50 not him and who knows what reflection will do.

Whether the EU will reform as it is indicating, would it not be a shame if the UK left and then the EU reformed into a worthwhile organisation....I would type more but they are fitting me for my straight jacket.
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[quote user="chessie"]

As for NZ lamb - heard of quotas.   And totally as a side-bar - why do you think that NZ and Oz are now responsible for the cruelty and disgusting obscene export of live animals to certain Muslim countries ?   Any of you heard or know about the disgusting and appalling animal abuse that takes place?



I think it is VERY clear what you meant and the countries you are talking about are not exactly "white" are they, they are Hamites.

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I was wondering when the Leave supporters would bring up the lie about Turkey. So far it only just about meets one of the six main criteria sub sections and that is probably going to be reversed given recent events there.


That said all the remaining 27 members have to agree once and if it meets all the criteria and there is one huge elephant in the room, Cyprus (research Operation Atilla for more info). So Turkey joining simply won't happen in our lifetime unless Cyprus leaves the EU of course.

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It's definitely not down to M. Junkers to dictate when to invoke article 50, but down to our government.

The petition for a second referendum seems an interesting idea; I seem to be hearing of more and more people who didn't really believe what they were told about problems if the vote to leave won. They wanted to give the polititicians a bloody nose, no more.

It wasn't a case of fear tactics from the Remain group, it was what has started to happen. The margin the leave group has isn't sufficient; a 60%, 70% or 75% margin should have been established, as they have in Switzerkand, where they regularly vote in referendums.

The bigwigs of the EU realise things must change; it would be good to be part of that.

All the young people who voted to remain need to see a good future ahead of them, or they will head off to other countries such as Commonwealth countries where their skills and qualifications are recognised.
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Gardegirl said...

"It's definitely not down to M. Junkers to dictate when to invoke article 50, but down to our government"

Yes, exactly. After the billions that the UK have invested in the EU and France....Junkers and his mob should get back their box and shut up. He should have resigned by now. He is a hated figure across Europe.

BTW, what is it with Scotland wanting to join the EU ? More Scottish live in England than in Scotland.

The world is going mad.
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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] 

BTW, what is it with Scotland wanting to join the EU ? More Scottish live in England than in Scotland . [/quote]

Before the UK was formed Scotland had always  more trading and cultural contacts with other European countries than England. There was also the Auld Alliance with France.

I was interested in your assertion that more Scots live in England than in Scotland. Do you have the figures for this? How many of these are people born in Scotland who live in England and how many are English born of Scots parents? I personally know of quite  a few English who live in and enjoy Scotland. Perhaps the relatively high Remain vote in London is due to Scots living and working there

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I have always been led to believe that more Scottish people live in England than Scotland. Maybe it is outside of Scotland ?? or maybe it is just an myth.

Nevertheless, the worst fear of Brexit was always going to be Scotland thinking of breaking away from the UK.

Scotland in the EU and England out is beyond comprehension.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Nevertheless, the worst fear of Brexit was always going to be Scotland thinking of breaking away from the UK.[/quote]I cast my vote guided solely by my principles as a libertarian and democrat. 

But I have to admit that the possibility of the secession of Scotland from the Union did cross my mind as an unintended but beneficial consequence.

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Well I am almost enjoying the whole Brexit thing now, and if it wasn't so serious for not only people living in France, and the whole of the UK I would find it totally hilarious.

The whole leave argument seems to be unravelling by the minute. Shock horror, Farage has admitted that the 350 million pounds 'savings' from the EU will not be spent on the NHS, and was a mistake to have been plastered across their battle bus. Admittedly he will have no say in the matter but has admitted this major plank of the leave argument was a lie. Gosh I really can't believe a politician would lie to the general public.

Immigration, well yes there will still be free movement to the UK from the EU, some MEP called Hannan has admitted, so another porky out in the open.

The economy, the leave campaign stated that the day after a vote to leave the EU there would be no fundamental change. Crash the pound hits a 30 year low against the dollar. Estate agents are saying property sales could now fall through. Commercial property deals signed before the referendum had a get out clause inserted, that in the event of a Brexit the contracts could be ripped up. What is that tearing sound that I am hearing. Retailers have stated that food and clothes prices are likely to rise next week, along with petrol. Obviously no fundamental changes there then.

We now have a petition running to have a second referendum with over 2 million people signing it. A labour MP is now asking parliament to overturn the referendum vote in parliament.

I think the funniest/saddest thing that I have read and watched are people being interviewed who voted to leave now wishing that they had not voted that way, as they didn't realise that it would hamper the economy.

Still Gove stated that all 'experts' are related to Hitler or something similar I can't remember now, but then latter had to retract the statement. The line was constantly used throughout the leave campaign the experts don't know what they are talking about. Really lads I think the British public are just realising that the whole leave campaign was a complete pack of lies, unfortunately it has come too late for any sensible thinking person who voted to remain.
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Look on the bright side Grecian.

At lest Farage will be out of a job - and given his now self proclaimed level of honesty should probably never be employed again.

Well maybe UKIP might be stupid enough to do so but then..................................................
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[quote user="Grecian"]Still Gove stated that all 'experts' are related to Hitler or something similar.....[/quote]


Goebbels but other than that your spot on.


I can't believe the stupidity of people when they say how dare the EU treat us like this when they read that most members want the UK out like asap, personally I would rip the membership card up on Monday morning. Some Leave campaigners explain the EU as a club for the elite well if that is true, that it is a club, and you went in and said "my family and I have had a vote and decided to leave" you would be told to feck off and close the door on the way out. If your very lucky you might get a refund on your subs till the end of the year but probably not. Honestly, what the hell did they think was going to happen if they voted to leave. So now it turns out Cameron was right and Garage was wrong along with Gove (snide shite that he his) and his mate Boris who is not much better. Personally I say let Boris be PM, Gove deputy and give Garage a job in the government and let them try and negotiate a deal for the UK. They got us in the mess so they can sort it out. Problem is they just aren't up to the job as people will soon discover.

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Cathar Tours, being able to leave is built into the system, so why are too many of these EU leaders now being petulant and not wanting  it to play out like adults.

 This has not even gone through our parliament yet, and I would suppose that it has to. Also, it is not unreasonable for us to have a new PM to start the ball rolling.

Re us baby boomers ruining things, I agree, I believe we have left a rotten legacy and actually I am wondering if this is righting the wrongs of the past. Radical change is not necessarily negative.

Incidentally, all the stuff there is still on tv about immigration being the deciding factor....... well, I have spoken to many friends in the last few days and it was never ever  mentioned. It was a vote against Cameron  and also a vote against Brussels and all it represents and they felt conned by the vote in 1975, because they wanted good trade, but that was all and not all the interference or a federal europe.

I must add that I have quite a lot of friends who are tories and they all hate Cameron and Osbourne with a passion. And that in spite of last years election and as one friend said, I just wanted to stick it to Cameron..... this has certainly got people I know motivated and worked up.

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Actually they are not being petulant or playing outside the rules at all, read Article 50. Negotiating trade deals is not part of the process, that comes later. It should, I believe, cover things like reciprocal healthcare, visa's etc.


I can understand why they want it done quickly and to be honest it is good for the UK as well. There is a lot of uncertainty at the moment which hurts both the UK and the EU. It really is like a divorce and we all know the longer it drags out the more nasty and expensive it becomes.


Whilst Article 50 has not been invoked yet it does not require a parliamentary vote because of the form of question on the referendum voting paper. That does not mean you can't have one if you wish but then they would probably vote to stay by voting not to invoke Article 50. Given that Cameron said it was a one referendum deal I doubt they would do such a thing for it would be against the wish of the people.


I can't believe that people are so stupid as to vote on something that will effect them, their children and their grand children just because they don't like Cameron and Osbourne. As it all unravels people will see what a massive mistake this attitude is and how much it will cost them. Some it appears already are claiming nobody told them about some of the problems facing the UK now. In some areas of the UK immigration did play a big role and in others it didn't. Basically in areas of high unemployment people voted to leave because of immigration.


I have just been reading the NYT and lots of stuff in that. Interestingly Russian, China and the US have now called into question the UK's permanent place in the UN Security Council and that it should be replaced with somebody from the EU because the UK has so little power on it's own and the EU is the biggest trading block in the world. We also have a permanent place at the WTO which again is being bought into question for much the same reasons. Even NATO where we hold some special place (I don't know exactly what it is) apparently that is being called into question. This does not mean anyone wants us to leave, they just want to treat us the same as all the other little countries. Most think it is simply the UK and the EU but it goes much further than that. How it all unfolds and what actually happens is anyone's guess because we can't control it. In fact we have no control over the rest of the world and how it will react.

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Jako said. "The UK is not even a WTO member, the EU is. The WTO had warned before the referendum that a new UK application will not be copy-paste: FT.com


But Boris said it was inconceivable that the EU would not be falling over itself to offer the UK an advantageous trade deal. After all is Boris not an honourable man?. Indeed are they not all honourable men?

Seriously though this is not going to be as simple as some campaigners suggested. Divorces are rarely that amicable And common sense is often a casualty
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During the last few weeks I recalled a remark made by one of my History masters in the 1950's.

Something to the effect that countries with weak governments relied on referendums (referenda in Latin) to make decisions, but that nothing like that is necessary in Britain.

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On Channel4 News last night a claim was made that the great Bozo was in fact pro EU but led LEAVE because he never thought it would win but thought it would help with becoming PM.

Spoke with my mother this morning. She vote Leave because of the immigrants. The main reason for phoning her was because she had to go to A&E yesterday and she told me that she saw a very nice helpful Indian consultant!

Anyway, the Tartan Lassie has said that she will veto leaving.

I have always thought of it as being a member of a golf club and you do not like the fees and rules so you resign and expect to carry on playing without paying the fees or obeying the rules.

Anyway, if anyone is looking for a job Corbyn has some.
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Well, the understandable comment has been said, and we're all none the wiser. It'll be a couple of years or more before we can begin to understand our personal effect. I forecast moans and petitions etc.

Just a thought: amongst all the blame being cast, I don't see much directed at the EU. It should have been a no-brainer

to remain, but instead they, with their arrogance over the last 10+yrs, made it more than possible.

Back to the CdR !
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Agree with most of that, but I'm not looking for an argument anyway.

What flabbergasts me is the number of feckless voters now whining they didn't understand the importance of/issues etc of the Referendum - but voted anyway ?

"Sir, I didn't read the question properly - please let me write the exam again").

To ask for another referendum because you made a mistake with your vote in the previous one, or do not approve of the result is ludicrous, even if the whole populations of Antarctica and the Vatican too, disagree with me. lol.

Agreed, it is the strict modus operandi of the EU/EC hegemony to keep voting until the required result is obtained, just ask Irish, French, Danish and Irish voters why they had two bites at the bitter EU cherry.

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