Please help.......insurance quandry

[cooperlola]

If this drags on, then there are bodies who can help you with the enforcement of European law:

III. HOW TO GET YOUR RIGHTS RECOGNISED AND ENFORCED

If you consider that national, regional or local authorities have wrongly interpreted your rights under Community law, or that they have discriminated against you or members of your family, you should assert your rights by complaining to the administration concerned. If you are not satisfied with the response, there are other ways to enforce your rights.

You may first need personalised advice on your European Union rights. For this, you can contact the Citizens Signpost Service, a fast and effective advice service which is provided free of charge in all official languages of the European Union. The legal experts of this service will provide practical information and advice on your rights and signpost you to the most appropriate body at European or national level which can assist you in solving the problem.

For more information on Citizens Signpost Service, please consult the following pages: http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/index_en.htm

If your case has a cross-border element you can submit it to your national SOLVIT Centre. SOLVIT is a network of national problem solving centres created and supervised by the European Commission. SOLVIT deals with cross-border problems caused by incorrect application of EU rules by public authorities. It aims to find practical information within ten weeks and is free of charge. For further information on how to submit a case, see: http://europa.eu/solvit.

You may also decide to start a more formal procedure at national level.  National courts must ensure that rights based on Community law are respected and, where necessary, set aside any measure which infringes it. They may also award you compensation.

Furthermore, there are also ways of raising your case more formally at Community level.

Firstly, you can complain to the European Commission (see http://ec.europa.eu/secretariat_general/sgb/lexcomm/ ). If the Commission considers your complaint well-founded, it can contact the national authorities concerned to ask for an explanation and to request that the infringement of Community law be terminated. If the Commission is not satisfied with the response of the national authorities, it can open infringement proceedings against the country concerned. This may lead to the case being referred to the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg. Be aware that such procedures may take a very long time and that SOLVIT may be able to help you a lot faster.

You may also present a petition to the European Parliament (see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/parliament/public/petition/submit.do) or raise your complaint with a Member of the European Parliament, who can put questions to the Commission and the Council. Their reply to the question must be made public.

You can also contact the European Ombudsman (see http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu), but only if your complaint concerns administrative irregularities or omissions by one of the Community institutions (e.g. the European Parliament, the Council or the European Commission), or by any decentralised body of the Community (e.g. the European Training Foundation). The European Ombudsman cannot deal with complaints concerning national or local administrations.

[Boiling a frog]

And here is advice about bringing foreign registered car to the UK.

 

Visitors to the UK

 

If you are coming to live permanently in the UK you need to re-register your vehicle onto UK plates immediately.

 

You should contact the DVLA for advice as to how to do this at www.dvla.gov.uk or the NIVLCO at www.dvlni.gov.uk if you live in Northern Ireland.

 

A vehicle with UK plates must have insurance according to UK Law, which means it must be insured with an authorized insurer and one who is a member of MIB.

 

To see if the insurer is a member of MIB please check the Members’ section of this website.

 

If you are a short- term visitor to the UK (for example on holiday) you can use your vehicle for a limited time before you need to re-register onto UK plates. If you are staying longer you must re-register the vehicle.  The DVLA have advised the legal position as follows:

 

A foreign registered vehicle can be used in this country for up to six months in a twelve month period providing it complies with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country.

 

Any foreign registered vehicle used in this country for more than six months in any twelve has to be registered and licensed in the normal way. In addition, where the keeper of the vehicle becomes resident in this country, the vehicle must immediately be registered and licensed here.

 

It is the responsibility of the driver to prove how long a vehicle has been in the UK.

 

In the event that you are stopped by the Police, or any other enforcement agency, you may be asked to provide proof of port of entry or any other evidence confirming when the vehicle arrived in the UK.

 

There are severe penalties if the law is not complied with and the Police have powers to seize and crush any vehicle they believe to be uninsured.

 

I think the problem is that the police believe that your husband,by working in the UK has become a resident in the UK and therefore should have reregistered his vehicle in the UK immediately. He has probably been caught by the clampdown on foreign registered vehicles used by Polish and others who are working in the UK but continue to drive their foreign registered vehicles.I can only suggest that you or the solicitor contacts the DVLA tomorrow and ask their opinion in these circumstances .

[cooperlola]

This, from the above, is probably relevant:

"It is the responsibility of the driver to prove how long a vehicle has been in the UK."

You might want to gather as much evidence of travel times to the UK, while you're twidding your thumbs and having kittens!  Bookings on ferries over the last year, etc.

[BJSLIV]

Mr O hasn't by any chance been in the UK for more than half of the last year and accidentally breached the six month provision?

[Georgina]

I know this probably is not helping but there has been an outcry in Britain about the number of foreign vehicles on the roads getting away with allsorts, hence why the police, unless it is immediately obvious, will not let anyone go without them proving themselves totally or being available at a later date for questioning.  I think if they do not readily find all this information, they are having a bit of a spate and if you cannot prove your address have the right to take you in.  I know from several friends in the UK that it has got out of hand recently with all the dodgers and they are clamping down on the tax big time.  I am not saying that you are dodging at all but it would explain their behaviour.  I also noticed on a recent visit how few old bangers were on the roads lately, which was immediately apparent.  Anyone who is sent on a Sunday from a solicitors, even if they are not experienced in European law, should be able to access the correct informationto help your case through their firm.

Georgina

[Patf]

Mrs. O. - what a predicament, and very difficult for you to sort out at a distance. As B a F said, the problem seems to be that he was working in the UK. You said yourself in your first post, they told him that this is what invalidated his insurance. Would it be possible to obtain a statement from his employer in the UK saying how long he has worked for them, and it was only temporary work?

[powerdesal]

Access to a fax machine.

This may not be helpful but... if you are running XP and have a fax modem built in (normal computer , ie (say) 56k US Robotics or similar) then you should be able to fax from your computer. It may be worth checking your system, if nothing else it will help take your mind off the situation in a small way.

best wishes and good luck.

[opas]

Oh all these questions to be thought about.

He left here on tuesday 22 April to catch a ferry on Wednesday, it was orriginally booked for a different car, which sprung a leak in the water pump about a week before departure. No problem with the ferry and he has probably got the documentation for that and I certainly have it on the email system, and bank receipt.

No return ferry booked as he wasn`t too sure as to how the work would pan out, I was to be booking him a ferry for Friday as things were going OK, but this last job must have not been up to scratch as he told me on the phone that he was going to Dover and was to suprise us all by being here for sometime today!

He can provide pay slips for the past 4/5 years showing that he does this regular and we have always been carefull with the 30 day rule for insurance.

I have looked at al those websites and am now bamboozled, that is what I have been doing since about 7.15 this morning,

I am a little wary of contacting the centre again as I must have rung 4 times for various reasons. I am also at the momment a little dubious about faxing any info to them , I do not want Mr O to be malteated in any way!  but If someone can use their brains for me and suggest which piece of info they should look at, I would gladly take up the offer of the poster who said they would do it on my behalf.

I really am stuck untill tomorow morning and by the time I get through to anyone he will already be in court  09.30 i beleive.

 

oh one last point, he is on a French driving licence , we both have been for about 4 years..........how will that work out?

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Puzzled"]

A Sunday solicitor will probably be just a solicitor's runner with little legal experience and even less knowledge of EU law.  Best chance of finding answers today is probably going to come from this forum. 

[/quote]

What a load of ill informed tosh, a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor, and as for this Forum being the answer to outcast's problems, well as they say "you are having a laugh mate".  "Let me go because some bloke in France on French Forum said you can't keep me locked up[:-))]

It might escaped some people's attention and I appreciate that some, though not all, are trying to help,  that you don't get arrested and kept in cells for driving whilst uninsured nor is it an EU law offence.  He has been arrested for an offence under UK law which a UK policeman and/or custody sergeant are probably quite well informed over and the duty solicitor would be a darn sight better inforned about UK law than any of the barrack lawyers on this Forum.  You sure old outcast was not his charming old self to the boys in blue???

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Puzzled"]

A Sunday solicitor will probably be just a solicitor's runner with little legal experience and even less knowledge of EU law.  Best chance of finding answers today is probably going to come from this forum. 

[/quote]

What a load of ill informed tosh, a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor, and as for this Forum being the answer to outcast's problems, well as they say "you are having a laugh mate".  "Let me go because some bloke in France on French Forum said you can't keep me locked up[:-))]

It might escaped some people's attention and I appreciate that some, though not all, are trying to help,  that you don't get arrested and kept in cells for driving whilst uninsured nor is it an EU law offence.  He has been arrested for an offence under UK law which a UK policeman and/or custody sergeant are probably quite well informed over and the duty solicitor would be a darn sight better inforned about UK law than any of the barrack lawyers on this Forum.  You sure old outcast was not his charming old self to the boys in blue???

[/quote]

 

I am giving advice based on 30 years service in the police,part of that time as a custody sergeant ,so I am not a barrack room lawyer.As for duty solicitors,most of them are the junior with very little experience in criminal law.To say they only know the basics is being kind to them.

The police do have a power of arrest when any crime or offense is committed .

The Serious and Organised Crime & Police Act 2005 changed the power to arrest in England & Wales. The main change was that the term 'Arrestable Offence' has now gone and any Constable can arrest for any offence.

 

(1) A constable may arrest without a warrant-

(a) anyone who is about to commit an offence;
(b) anyone who is in the act of committing an offence;
(c) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence;
(d) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an offence.

(2) If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it.

(3) If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant-
(a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;
(b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

(4) But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1), (2) or (3) is exercisable only if the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (5) it is necessary to arrest the person in question.

(5) The reasons are-
(a) to enable the name of the person in question to be ascertained (in the case where the constable does not know, and cannot readily ascertain, the person's name, or has reasonable grounds for doubting whether a name given by the person as his name is his real name);
(b) correspondingly as regards the person's address;
(c) to prevent the person in question-

(i) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(ii) suffering physical injury;
(iii) causing loss of or damage to property;
(iv) committing an offence against public decency (subject to subsection (6)); or
(v) causing an unlawful obstruction of the highway;

(d) to protect a child or other vulnerable person from the person in question;
(e) to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question;
(f) to prevent any prosecution for the offence from being hindered by the disappearance of the person in question.

(6) Subsection (5)(c)(iv) applies only where members of the public going about their normal business cannot reasonably be expected to avoid the person in question.

[opas]

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Puzzled"]

A Sunday solicitor will probably be just a solicitor's runner with little legal experience and even less knowledge of EU law.  Best chance of finding answers today is probably going to come from this forum. 

[/quote]

What a load of ill informed tosh, a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor, and as for this Forum being the answer to outcast's problems, well as they say "you are having a laugh mate".  "Let me go because some bloke in France on French Forum said you can't keep me locked up[:-))]

It might escaped some people's attention and I appreciate that some, though not all, are trying to help,  that you don't get arrested and kept in cells for driving whilst uninsured nor is it an EU law offence.  He has been arrested for an offence under UK law which a UK policeman and/or custody sergeant are probably quite well informed over and the duty solicitor would be a darn sight better inforned about UK law than any of the barrack lawyers on this Forum.  You sure old outcast was not his charming old self to the boys in blue???

[/quote]

 

You malicious Bastard. the word edited out was mild compared to the one I wanted to use

 

I do beleive he would have put up resistance to arrest, and has told me he was kicked in the head by one of the coppers who jumped out of the 6 yes six cars that turned up!!!!  The only reason he is there now is because he does not have a UK address, he will not give my fathers as he is 83 and in ill health. I assume that they think he would skip the country if they had just issued a summons.

 

EDIT BY OPAS Tues19 th .

HE HAS TOLD ME HE DID NOT RESIST ARREST

[powerdesal]

So basically BaF, if I give my name and address to a Constable and he chooses not to believe me, unless I have "proof" on me he can (and will) arrest me without any other grounds. Sounds a bit like mainland Europe in the early 40s to me.

[opas]

All his ID papers will marry up, passport with photo, TDS with photo Driving licence with Photo, insurance docs with same name and address in France.

It is the insurance issue we are discussing here , not charactar assasin . some folks just cannot wait to have another pop can they. Well leave of you misserable git because it is my emotions you are playing with now NOT OUTCASTS got it!

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="powerdesal"]So basically BaF, if I give my name and address to a Constable and he chooses not to believe me, unless I have "proof" on me he can (and will) arrest me without any other grounds. Sounds a bit like mainland Europe in the early 40s to me.
[/quote]

 

I suspect you deliberatly missed out the first bit  to make it sound like a police state.

1) A constable may arrest without a warrant-

(a) anyone who is about to commit an offence;
(b) anyone who is in the act of committing an offence;
(c) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence;
(d) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an offence.

(2) If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it.

(3) If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant-
(a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;
(b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

 

Can I ask what is so bad about that ?

You need to be suspected of committing an offence not just asked for your name and address

[BJSLIV]

It all sounds a rather disproportionate response, both in terms of the number of cars attending and the subsequent incarceration, if we are only talking about a minor documentation problem. On the other hand resisting arrest can only lead to further aggravation.

[Cat]

Whatever your personal feeling are towards or about Outie, we are trying to help Opas, who has done nothing whatsoever wrong here.  She must be out of her mind with worry, do you really want her to feel worse than she does already?  Show some compassion, for goodness sake.

EDIT:  sorry BJSLIV, I wasn't referring to your mail, you nipped in with your reply before I posted mine.

[Bob T]

I have been watching this thread with interest as I never believed that the UK police would, or could, arrest anyone without good reason and would never get them to court either.

I can now see cracks appearing. Why would six police cars turn up to arrest someone? They must have had good reason to send six as they would not have all been there at the same time for a routine check. I cannot imagine the cash strapped UK police calling for backup because someone has suspect insurance documentation.

Refusing to give an address where one is staying, having told the police that one is working temporary, is an arrestable offence in itself.

I am sure that if the person arrested is guilty of nothing then there will be no problem and everything will be fine in the end.

[Ole Git]

Unfortunately  most of us on this Forum are of a certain  age and even today believe that Mr Plod is always right.

Whilst it is the Custody  Sargent's duty to oversea the Prisoners being detained, he will only Judge if the original reason for arrest was correct.

As now days they arrest innocent demonstrators under the terrorism act, the Custody's Sargent duty of care has long gone.

As far as Opas is concerned she quite rightly wants her man home.

We can all pontificate but all Police stations are a Black hole over the week end and unless she has some one with clout he will be appearing tomorrow before a group of worthies who always support the Police.

There is no reason why if he pleads "Not Guilty" tomorrow  that he and his car should not be released.

Bob T 24 if the Mr Plods send van loads to arrest Pensioners for Council Tax offences why shouldn't they do the same for Opas's Husband.

Chief Constables have been proved to be corrupt and they are allowed to resign keeping thier full pension.

Wake up smell the Coffee

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

[quote user="powerdesal"]So basically BaF, if I give my name and address to a Constable and he chooses not to believe me, unless I have "proof" on me he can (and will) arrest me without any other grounds. Sounds a bit like mainland Europe in the early 40s to me.

[/quote]

 

I suspect you deliberatly missed out the first bit  to make it sound like a police state.

1) A constable may arrest without a warrant-

(a) anyone who is about to commit an offence;

(b) anyone who is in the act of committing an offence;

(c) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence;

(d) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an offence.

(2) If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it.

(3) If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant-

(a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;

(b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

 

Can I ask what is so bad about that ?

You need to be suspected of committing an offence not just asked for your name and address

[/quote]

No, I did not deliberately miss out any part, I simply mis-read your para 4. I have no desire to make the UK sound like a Police state

[Boiling a frog]

My sympathy for the OP has now somewhat diminished following the revalation that the husband appears to have resisted arrest and that an assistance call by the original officer resulted in 6 police cars turning up.

I am afraid that I can never find any justification for resisting arrest and neither can the courts

That I suspect is the real reason he remains in custody.

Perhaps if the OP had revealed all the facts to start with then appropriate advice would have been given but I feel somewhat put apon having wasted time searching for information and giving advice without the true facts being revealed[:@] 

[opas]

[quote user="Bob T"]I have been watching this thread with interest as I never believed that the UK police would, or could, arrest anyone without good reason and would never get them to court either.
I can now see cracks appearing. Why would six police cars turn up to arrest someone? They must have had good reason to send six as they would not have all been there at the same time for a routine check. I cannot imagine the cash strapped UK police calling for backup because someone has suspect insurance documentation.
Refusing to give an address where one is staying, having told the police that one is working temporary, is an arrestable offence in itself.
I am sure that if the person arrested is guilty of nothing then there will be no problem and everything will be fine in the end.
[/quote]

He wouldn`t have refused to give an address , he hasn`t got a UK address to give!  Sometimes I have stuff sent to my Dads that cannot be sent to France...they are then picked up by whoever goes to the UK first, if it is Outie, he may cadge a bed and use of the washer , but it would not be fair to say it was his UK address as it is not.

[cassis]

I don't understand.  Would he not have had an address where he had been staying while working? 

[opas]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

My sympathy for the OP has now somewhat diminished following the revalation that the husband appears to have resisted arrest and that an assistance call by the original officer resulted in 6 police cars turning up.

I am afraid that I can never find any justification for resisting arrest and neither can the courts

That I suspect is the real reason he remains in custody.

Perhaps if the OP had revealed all the facts to start with then appropriate advice would have been given but I feel somewhat put apon having wasted time searching for information and giving advice without the true facts being revealed[:@] 

[/quote]

Well sorry to have wasted your time!

I think even I would have thought it was a joke if I was told that I was under arrest for not having valid insurance when I knew I had. I couldn`t beleive it myself this morning when I was told.

 

 

Mr O is no spring chicken you know, he will be 47 next week and is an unfit16 stone (he doesn`t sound too apealing when put like that) I cannot see why it would take more than 3/4 people to handle him.

....

 

Come on be serious , would you go willingly and say it is a fair cop, when it is not?

 

The real reason as given to me for him being there is because the green card  insurance is not valid.

[Bob T]

[quote user="opas"]

Mr O is no spring chicken you know, he will be 47 next week and is an unfit16 stone (he doesn`t sound too apealing when put like that) I cannot see why it would take more than 3/4 people to handle him.

 The real reason as given to me for him being there is because the insurance is not valid.

[/quote]

I cannot see why it should take more than one person to handle him, or even ask him to come with them. Being stopped under the suspision of not having valid insurance is one thing. Then to refuse to give an address in the UK where you were staying and on top of that needing backup to be called would indicate to me that you do not know all the facts. I am sure that the court will be given them in the morning and it will all be sorted out.

I realise that you are finding things very difficult, and you have my sympathies, but the facts will come out in the end and worrying about it will not help you or your husband.

[cooperlola]

I'm sure that Bob is right, although I know that it is more difficult than it sounds not to panic in these situations!

Immediately, I would try to establish who the solicitor is who will go to court with him, and make sure they're aware of all the legislation which has been posted, which pertains to EU regs - I can't see that they will be upset, if you help to push them in the right direction re research.

Whether or not there was more to this than meets the eye is another matter, and none of my business, but the solicitor should, to my mind, be your best method of sorting this out.  They - however inexperienced - are at least on the spot and will get the facts from the horse's mouth.