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Please help.......insurance quandry


opas
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If this is indeed does all boil down to plod's inability to grasp or comprehend the validity of French insurance on a French car driven by a French resident then I'm absolutely certain that nuances such as whether the driver was going to work or not could ever penetrate their skulls [:-))]

Besides which, in UK at least, that is not a criminal matter anyway but something for the insurance company to argue about in the event of a claim.

 

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Incidentally, I think this is this is an extremely important thread as, notwithstanding anything we have perhaps not been told but which is germain to Mr O's predicament, it's potentially a situation which any one of us who drives to UK in a French car could unwittingly find ourselves in !

 

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Or, indeed, anybody who drives a vehicle registered and insured in any European country to any other European country (including Britain to France) because vehicle insurance laws are one of the areas where European harmonisation is actually a fact, subject to the laws of individual countries.
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The OUTCAST is free..........no case to answer. He has been told he has to produce a copy of his travel document , which he didn`t have because for some reason Our computer chose not to download the info so he just wrote his confirmation number down. so I shall contact norfolkline to see if they will fax a duplicate through to the relevent department. And an english translation of his green card so I am off to see the chocolate fireguard at Groupama in a mo.

 

Big thankyou to all who supported me and my family through this , and a big Raspberry to the not so nice people, you each know which category you fall into!

 

 

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For future reference, this is a quote taken from the FAQ's  on the Total France forum it may be of use.

Following extended discussion on another thread, I provide the following extensive post from Mr J H Punchard - www.direct.gov.uk/motoring;

Thank you for your email.

Foreign vehicles brought temporarily into the country by a person

resident outside the UK for their own use, are permitted to circulate

in the country for a period of 6 months in any 12 month period provided

they are able to satisfy the authorities that the vehicle is licensed

and registered in the country of normal residence and they are resident

outside the UK. The Motor Vehicles ( International Circulation) Order

1975, as amended, provides temporary exemption for vehicles which

comply with the provisions of Council Directive 83/182, from licensing

and registration requirements during this period.

Normal residence means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year.

Drivers may be asked to produce proof of their place of residence to

the authorities of the country the vehicle is being used in.

If at any time a vehicle being used here on foreign plates is stopped

by the police, it is the responsibility of the keeper to demonstrate

that s/he is eligible to use the vehicle here without registering and

licensing it.

Should you require an extension of the 6 month period allowed, you must

immediately contact your nearest HM Revenue and Customs Advice Centre

giving a reason as to why you wish the vehicle to stay in Britain. It

will depend on HM Revenue & Customs whether or not you will have to

register the vehicle under the British registration and licensing

system. If an extension to the 6 month period is not allowed, you will

be issued with a HM Revenue & Customs status certificate

(C&E386/388).

On receipt of this certificate, you should apply immediately to

register and licence the vehicle at your nearest DVLA Local Office.

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You must be very relieved.

So what, exactly, have the Greater Manchester (presumably) police said to justify their heavy-handedness that kept him away from you for a couple of days longer than it should have been?

(Can't say I'm surprised by their actions, I used to know a certain chap who became a policeman in Brighton, progressed to chief superintendent in Manchester, and is now chief constable of North Wales. He has been voted 'most hated person' by car-related groups on several occasions)

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To put this into perspective - I checked out of a hotel in Alicante on Friday morning before driving back to my home in Languedoc. I was driving my French reg car, with French ins cover, French permis, French CdS but UK passport.

Had I been stopped in Spain on Friday I would have been in exactly the same circumstances as Outie. And what about the numerous cross border "day trippers" buying booze, fags, fuel, etc. ?

Given the circumstances - Outie was doing nothing illegal, or unusual

(lots of people drive to work across borders every day) - the UK police

were at fault.

It would be worth looking into the question of compensation. Some info here : http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/actionsagainstthepolice.htm

Contact with a journalist may highlight the problem and help

with any compensation claim.

Peter

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I'd be wary of journalists, speaking for myself.  It's good that it's all resolved and I'd just want to get on with my life.

Those who court the media could end up with a lot of egg on their faces.  Just look at the McCanns and Cherie Blair.  Makes me shudder just thinking about the press.

It's like a giant beast which, once you've awakened it, could be difficult to control.

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[quote user="sweet 17"]

I'd be wary of journalists, speaking for myself.  [/quote]

Not all of us are driven by tabloid sales or political agendas. Some of us can be nice helpful people [;-)]

It might be worth contacting the guy who writes in the Motoring bit of the Telegraph on Saturdays, who often features overseas insurance questions, particularly with regard to those living in France who insist on keeping British registrations - www.honestjohn.co.uk. Or maybe go for the big guns, Clarkson etc - http://www.jeremyclarkson.co.uk/  http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/  or http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/

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[quote user="opas"]

The OUTCAST is free..........no case to answer. He has been told he has to produce a copy of his travel document , which he didn`t have because for some reason Our computer chose not to download the info so he just wrote his confirmation number down. so I shall contact norfolkline to see if they will fax a duplicate through to the relevent department. And an english translation of his green card so I am off to see the chocolate fireguard at Groupama in a mo.

 

Big thankyou to all who supported me and my family through this , and a big Raspberry to the not so nice people, you each know which category you fall into!

 [/quote]

Is he free as in free to go or free as in you can go after producing said documentation ?

It strikes me that the court are taking the mickey, copy of a travel doc?????? Its the EU, you surely can buy a ticket on arrival at a ferry port. Translation of green card - you must be joking, the courts are (I believe) required to have translation services available, I cant imagine a translation service to (say) Urdu not being available (for example only).

If there was no case to answer then asking for the docs is trying to imply that the Police were really justified.IMHO.

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And the hight mare continues!

The car was put in a pound with an extorionate daly rate and thee is an appointment system to get it out, nearest apiontment is Wedneday...so their bill adds up nicely. But one of the stipulations of getting the car out is to produce a valid ins docket...and so we go back to square one! if you look on the back of your green document where your window vignette comes from it actually says in English european insurance card, so I phoned the Motor ins Bureau again and was put throught to the cross boarder section, she asked me what was in box 2 box 3 etcand confirmed that the document is valid and that whoever is being awkward should phone them, Ihave told this to Outie and he said the man refused to do it, so I suggested he do it on his mobile and explain the situation then pass the phone to this guy. I have been to groupama and spoken to 2 agents to ask for an english trasnslation of my insurance and they think I am mad....it is french insurance and is written in french, I explained the principle of the green card and how we used to have to get one with a french translation for our holidays in france but "   il `nexiste pas en France ".  So does it  or not?

 

Next , I am not sure if I mentioned in my OP that he was supposed to be going in our Astra, but it sprung a leak in the water pump, the orriginal ferry doc were booked for the Astra. Nothing was said at the port(unfortunatly ) when he went through with the Xantia.........do the ports have video tape running and do they keep them, he has to prove how long the Xantia has been in the UK,

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[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Puzzled"]

A Sunday solicitor will probably be just a solicitor's runner with little legal experience and even less knowledge of EU law.  Best chance of finding answers today is probably going to come from this forum. 

[/quote]

What a load of ill informed tosh, a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor is a duty solicitor, and as for this Forum being the answer to outcast's problems, well as they say "you are having a laugh mate".  "Let me go because some bloke in France on French Forum said you can't keep me locked up[:-))]

It might escaped some people's attention and I appreciate that some, though not all, are trying to help,  that you don't get arrested and kept in cells for driving whilst uninsured nor is it an EU law offence.  He has been arrested for an offence under UK law which a UK policeman and/or custody sergeant are probably quite well informed over and the duty solicitor would be a darn sight better inforned about UK law than any of the barrack lawyers on this Forum.  You sure old outcast was not his charming old self to the boys in blue???

[/quote]

So  No case to answer" which was made after the CPS  withdrawing the charges, clearly proving that Plod and Custody Plod do not know how many beans make five.

They certainly do not know the UK Road Traffic Act and the related insurance and overseas provisions, the MIB have a special Doc for Plods clearly outlining the Insurance Regs, which is available in the reserve and the custody suite.

here is a link

http://www.mib.org.uk/GreenCard/en/Default.htm

contrary to your protestations, you can be arrested and held in custody for driving correctly and being Insured.

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[quote user="Ole Git"]" No case to answer" which was made after the CPS  withdrawing the charges, clearly proving that Plod and Custody Plod do not know how many beans make five.

They certainly do not know the UK Road Traffic Act and the related insurance and overseas provisions, the MIB have a special Doc for Plods clearly outlining the Insurance Regs, which is available in the reserve and the custody suite.

Ron here is a link for you personally!

http://www.mib.org.uk/GreenCard/en/Default.htm

[/quote]

There again, as it says in the link:

[quote]It is the

responsibility of the driver to prove how long a vehicle has been in the UK.

In the event

that you are stopped by the Police, or any other enforcement agency, you may be

asked to provide proof of port of entry or any other evidence confirming when

the vehicle arrived in the UK.

There are

severe penalties if the law is not complied with and the Police have powers to

seize and crush any vehicle they believe to be uninsured.
[/quote]

This is something I'm sure I'll be more aware of following Outie's experience.

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Just what was there in my post that caused Opas so much angst?  The fact that I pointed out it was outcast involved?  There is nothing else that I can see that would have caused any offence.  I have not been proved wrong of every count only that I had forgotten that he would be treated as a foreign national which Ernie politely corrected me about, the rest was 100% accurate, he did kick off as we knew he would charming chap that he is. 

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Without wanting to procrastinate the above,  It actually refers to foreign registered vehicles, A EU plated vehicle is not considered foreign ( Except obviously to Greater Manchester Police), Russian is foreign where as Latvia and Estonia are  not that is why there has been in certain National Press great indignation that EU truckers are only summonsed for RT offences where as Foreign Truckers would be immobilised.

There has recently been EU legislation to allow EU Fixed Penalty Tickets to be collected  in the Residents country.

Guess which EU Country has not enacted the Legistlation??  the UK.

But as  Truckers organisations both EU and Foreign point out the UK does not have the designated Truck Stops, Toilets and washing facilities are non existant and where they do have limited spaces like Granada Services they are not Free unlike in mainland Europe, and truckers have to use lay bye's where they are continually harrased by the police for a variety of reasons, including the noise from refridge units.

There were numerous cases a few years ago of attempted prosecution of non UK truckers for using TV's with their cabs without a UK licence.?????

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[quote user="Ole Git"]

Without wanting to procrastinate the above,  It actually refers to foreign registered vehicles, A EU plated vehicle is not considered foreign ( Except obviously to Greater Manchester Police).), Russian is foreign where as Latvia and Estonia are not ...

[/quote]

I don't understand where you get that idea from.  The DVLA and HMRC class EU plated vehicles as foreign registered vehicles.  Why shouldn't the GMP?

Are you an ex-trucker by any chance?

 

 

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

I don't understand where you get that idea from.  The DVLA and HMRC class EU plated vehicles as foreign registered vehicles.  Why shouldn't the GMP?

Are you an ex-trucker by any chance?[/quote]

The DVLC differentiate between EU and Foreign.

HMRC have had lost virtually every decision of theirs when appealed to the ECJ including personal use imports, over their failure to abide by European regulations.

The only Trucks I have been in was in my youth when Hitch Hiking, never driven one, Nowdays you have to be an attractive Blonde Female  to be a trucker, well they are the ones I see driving in France[:P]

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Just what was there in my post that caused Opas so much angst?  The fact that I pointed out it was outcast involved?  There is nothing else that I can see that would have caused any offence.  I have not been proved wrong of every count only that I had forgotten that he would be treated as a foreign national which Ernie politely corrected me about, the rest was 100% accurate, he did kick off as we knew he would charming chap that he is. 

Post edited by the moderators.
Users must not post messages which are insulting, abusive, racist, sexist, or derogatory in any way to others, whether they are individuals or companies, users of the Forum or not. This includes material sent via personal e-mails through this forum.
[/quote]

Hey Ron Your second sentence in that statement must mean you have a very high Mensa.[:-))].......

Ron and the reat of the forum.

I have put a footnote on the post where I said I had immagined he would resist arrest.

He has told me he did not resist arerest, which in one way supprised me and in another didn`t.

So Ron , you think you know my husband better than me because you KNEW he would kick off...............well you are almost 100% wrong, you are right about the fact he is a charming chap[:P]

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I may be able to throw some light on this mystery, in the meantime I wish opas well with trying to repatriate both her car and husband and hope that she can post the precise reason for his incarceration when she knows.

This morning I was concerned that the same could happen to me so I went to check my green international insurance document, the first surprise was that it was not in the car so I would have definitely been running a risk in the Uk where plod are unlikely to recognise the vignette.

I have been delayed due to being in hospital all day and evening following a ladder accident but I have it in front of me now.

At first glance it is clearly written in english, "international motor insurance card" and you dont need a translator to see the reg of the vehicle and the name of the insured but that is where the problem may have been, given that "outlaw" (whoever he is, perhaps someone before my time on the forum) was not the owner of the vehicle or the insured.

I have never before noticed it but there is a second space under the one for the insureds signature, (I am assuming that this had Opas's signature).

This second space is to be used only for travel in the UK, Ireland and Cyprus and is for the signatures of those permitted to use the vehicle, - it actually uses "peuvent" meaning able/can.

On the reasonable assumption that outlaw had not signed here there are two scenarios both of which would require him to be detained as a "foreign suspect", the first is that the arresting officer understood the significance and the absence of  his name or signature on the form implied that he was uninsured until such time as he/you could prove otherwise.

The second is that they did not understand the significance but would be looking for an insurance certificate bearing his name and the vehicle reg as would be the case in the UK.

Again an assumption but if the carte grise was not in his name this would have reinforced their view that he may not have been  permitted to drive the vehicle, insured or even have stolen it.

I would recommend all forum members who use their French registered and insured cars in the UK to check their "green cards" and fill out this box with the names of all other users to avoid potential problems.

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No mystery, as stated above  when he was stopped he was asked for insurance papers ,The police did not want to listen when he said that it was a valid ins, showed tham all the details on it but they wouldn`t take his word for it and refused to get an interpretor (which it turns out they didn`t need to do.....all they had to do was phone the MIB...on the back of the card) The car is in his name, the insurance is in his name. The cart gris is in his name , his passport has another 6 years to run.

I feel they thought he was being smart when he said he had no UK address to give them.......he had not been staying with anyone, the irony is that he is now with my dad, but as I have also mentioned earlier he would not put my dads address formard just to tick a box.

I would have thought that in the days of free and easy accross boarder travel that the transport police....yes you read that right  , would know how to deal with a foreign looking document. It was not a beat bobby on the street that made this blunder it was the tranxport police.

As also stated before, the custody seargent told me in no uncertain terms that it was ILLEGAL to work whilst traveling on a green card!

There are a lot off irregularities on behalf of the police, I have an independant witness to prove one of them, which I shall not be dicussing on an open forum as Outcast has contacted various authorities and is taking the matter further.

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[quote user="J.Rs gone native"]I have been delayed due to being in hospital all day and evening following a ladder accident [/quote]

I sometimes wonder if you should be allowed out on your own JR [:-))]

You're not Michael Crawford  in mufti by any chance are you [Www]

[:D]

 

PS the " causes the same quoting problem as the previous ' [blink]

 

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