Please help.......insurance quandry

[Russethouse]

I don't think it was a case of being able to afford a victory parade, it  was more a punishment for previous bad behavior, wasn't it ?

[powerdesal]

[quote user="cooperlola"]I think in your shoes, I'd be adding my response to that quoted piece, Opas.  It seems that the Greater Manchester police feel they need at least 10 officers to do anything then?[/quote]

I think Swinton nick must be overmanned and underworked!!!!

[opas]

[quote user="Russethouse"]I don't think it was a case of being able to afford a victory parade, it  was more a punishment for previous bad behavior, wasn't it ?[/quote]

 

I thought it was because of the situation between Glasgow? and whoever it was that played at Trafford the week before...lots of trouble and not a United shirt playing.

[PaulT]

Opas

Just read all of this which is a little concerning - glad that they did not then try adding a bogus charge to try to justify themselves.

Should you go for compensation - should you be locked up for three days when you have done nothing wrong?

As for when the car entered the UK - are there not number plate reading cameras just outside the ports and they must save the numbers read.

At the least they need to refund the car pool charges.

Also perhaps they have shown such ignorance as stating that green cards are not valid if you work in the UK.

It is obviously up to you but unless a fuss is made then the police will just sweep this under the carpet and carry on.

I dare say Mr O is a little concerned about travelling to the UK for work.

Do give an update on this.

Perhaps this should also provide a lesson to some of those who leapt to wrong conclusions and must have caused you even greater concern.

Paul

[opas]

Let me assure you that this will not be swept under the carpet.

It is in the hands of the IPCC and as such at the momment everything is in mid air.

He is not at all put off by all this as he has followed the law as it is written to the letter, and not as it was construed by a Traffic cop who obviously woke up halfway through a training session.

We know that our car can be tracked through the UK , it has been proven before with other cases, but if the police were not prepared to phone the Ins Helpline on the back of the green card then they are not going to put themselves out to prove date of entry......the onus is on US or  Joe Public!

He has contacted various MPs and the Home Office as well as Euro MPs and had various responses.

The funniest thing we have done out of all this is to contact the car pool company who painted the acc no on the bonnet of our car, and has taken 2 car washes and a T Cut to get off, and ask them to send the monetary equivallent to our chosen charity........Shelter, which tickled us as he was also locked up as he couldn`t provide a UK address[:-))]

[BJSLIV]

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. I fear that their get out out will be based around the legislation that lies behind this phrase on the DVLA / OpenGov  website.

Concerning the temporary import of EU vehicles

It is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country.

[AnOther]

I can well understand the desire to purge your outrage but in the cold light of day I too fear that it's probably futile and ultimately doomed to failure.

My advice: forget it and move on [8-|] 

 

[mint]

Erns, I am in total agreement with you on this one.  Sometimes the hassle could be more energy-draining than the original incident.

[powerdesal]

Sometimes you really have to take a stand, and, as long as it doesn't cost more than any other hobby, it can be quite fun and entertaining.

[Chancer]

I agree with both Ernie and Steve, oh dear I sound like a liberal!

It all depends on your character and how you will deal with an unsuccessful outcome.

I have taken both paths in the past, in fact it was letting something go that would have grown into an internal cancer for me had I pursued it (being taken for a huge some of money by a long term friend and customer) that was ultimately responsible for me ceasing my business and retiring to France.

I am so happy with my new life now that if I met him again I would probably thank him rather than try to kill him.

On second thoughts..............[6]

[woolybananasbrother]

Go for the bast ards. They need to be reminded of their place. And never let go. Use your teeth on their privates.

[mint]

Only if you're sure they've washed their privates and only if you still have all your own teeth!

[opas]

I keep saying I am not going to add anymore but here goes.

there is one simple issue here, the fact that the Traffic cops could have used the 24 hour Insurance no on the back of the green card and refused.  My husband was then arrested by 2 police who thought he was being smart because he wouldn`t give them a UK address. Once arrested he could not be released untill he went through the courts. There is information to suggest that these 2 did not do their job properly which resulted in 3 days loss of liberty for Mr O , a day of me wondering why the hell he was not answering his phone and another 2 of a nightmare situation. A huge bill for enforced parking, which was made longer than necessary as thee is an appointment system to release the vehicle.

All those who feel that we are silly to persue this are free to do so,  but can i reiterate that IF this had gone the way the cops wanted it to , my husband would have ended up with 6 points on his license , a crushed car and in the end no job.

[PaulT]

You stick with it Opas as you clearly have it in you to take this forward.

It was your husband this time, who will it be next time.

The courts rule that there is no case to answer, i.e. innocent and you husband has lost three days of his liberty, a large bill to get his car back and a lot of anxiety. This is made especially worse whereby the police did not make any enquiries, which they could, as to whether the car was insured and they would also have discovered your husbands address - in France.

Paul

[Russethouse]

While I have quite a lot of sympathy with Opas, what you are suggesting P2, is that the police start investigating cases, take that forward, where do they (or we, as in society) draw the line.Surely the onus is on the person concerned to make sure everything is in order regarding their paperwork? ( Simply changing the car details on the ferry ticket in this case)

Be careful what you wish for.

What I think this case underlines is the need for a uniform approach regarding identifying the vehicle you are traveling in, if this is important to the police then the ferry companies should adjust their regulations accordingly.

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

While I have quite a lot of sympathy with Opas, what you are suggesting P2, is that the police start investigating cases...

[/quote]

But isn't that part of their job already?

[BJSLIV]

As I said yesterday it all revolves around the precise meaning of.......

It is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country.

If the driver is unable to provide proof, just how much digging should the  police be expected to do? The answer will be interesting.

[opas]

Please re read this thread.

 

It all started because the police stoped a car with French plates, no offence was being commited, ie  all the tyres are legal (one of the ways we proved that the car was in France in early April...2 new front tyres) none of the lights misfunction, he was not speeding, no breath test requested, he had all paperwork needed, clean Licence(albeit French) French TDS, Brit passport (issued in Paris........no UK address to obtain a cheaper Brit version from[Www]) and last but foremost all his insurance documents.......There is no need to investigate anything there, it is a European motor certificate, look at yours it even says so on the back........there is a phone no for every number in the EU, so it is not hard to phone through to check a valid document and may I remind you he was stopped on the motorway by the Traffic cops....there is a clue in the tittle there[geek]  God help us if they cannot get a the easy bit right!

These 2 then go on to be inspector Clueless and put 2 and 2 together and reach a silly figure. 

There was no need for arrest, I could have faxed all the car maintenance records to that station on Saturday morning, I do not have a fax but would have knocked on doors untill I found a house with one........they had access to a 24 ins line, I only had office hours Mon to Fri. They could have used their brains and took his passprt of him, untill the said documentation came through.

 

But no they decided it was illegal to work whist driving on a green card. Someone find me a piece of paper that officially says that and I shall eat my Catalan Dragon hat!

When this is finished(in about 5 years time, if I have not been banned before then for loosing patience) I will fill you in with all the missing gaps, as there are quite a few, but I will not publish them to the web as I do not want anyone to backtrack on their statements (ie the Police) as there are a number of issues here that really make them look stupid, nasty and malicious.

I shall save my energy for the fight ahead!

[Maricopa]

Go for it opas

The Police wasted a lot of time, energy and money for the sake of a two minute phone call.  They should be made to usefully spend more, time, energy and money explaining themselves, so that lessons can be learned to prevent future visitors from Europe going through the same thing.

Well done.

[AnOther]

I will continue to watch the thread but also intend this to be my last post to it.

I'm not neccessarily defending plod and you can call them stupid or incompetant or anything you like but I think it is extremely unlikely that there was any malice in their intent when Mr O was stopped, and we still don't know why that was BTW. If everything was as white on white as you say then what exactly was the reason, it surely cannot be simply because the car was on Franch plates ? 

What subsequently transpired at the road side we can never know for sure, indeed the truth is that you were not their either so only have Mr O's version. That's not to say or even suggest that he's lying but in any given situation, especially a stressful one as this obviously turned into, you will always get different accounts and perceptions.

The crux of the matter is that, for whatever reason or reasons, be they proven right or wrong, plod were not satisfied that all was in order and without a provable UK address to later trace him they had little if any option but to arrest and detain him.

As for holding his passport, I may be wrong here (I hope not !) but I do not believe the police (yet) have the authority to summarily deprive an individual of their passport. I doubt also that your faxed documents would have been acceptable as hard evidence of anything as they are completely open to forgery.

Murphy's law dictated that this was at the weekend and although the insurance helpline might be open 24/7 the vast majority of other places where information can be checked and advice sought are not, hence the delay in his release.

I cannot and will not attempt to justify the crude and unjust system under which his car was impounded and he was still forced to pay for it's release depite being found completely innocent.

All in all then I am still of the opinion that, other than trying to get that money back, you're on a hiding to nothing but good luck all the same.

 

[PaulT]

Russethouse wrote:

While I have quite a lot of sympathy with Opas, what you are suggesting P2, is that the police start investigating cases...

Phil & Pat wrote

But isn't that part of their job already?

RH I do not know whether your comment was meant for real but I like Phil and Pat thought it was the police job of investigation.

Surely, if you are accused of something it is their job to prove it - innocent until proven guilty comes to mind. The way they could prove guilt is by contacting the insurance service and being told that the car was not insured. That way they would know they have their man - or as in this case that the insurance was in order and he was innocent.

Perhaps if they had investigated whether with a job in the UK you required UK insurance even if you were resident in another country they would have discovered that they were in the wrong.

However, things do seem to be changing. Someone told me the other day that they had reported something to the police and the police asked them to gather some information.

Perhaps all this form filling is taking up time so they cannot properly perform their job.

The police might, at times, do a very difficult and harrowing job but boy do they know how to generate bad publicity.

I remember once when I was a teenager I was stopped, on a dark night driving my car. The policeman in a very loud and intimidating way ordered me out of the car and was totally abhorrent in his attitude. I did not have anything on me to prove who I was but then the passenger door opened and my passenger stated 'I can vouch for him'. It was my father. There was a great deal of coughing and spluttering and with a 180 degree reversal of attitude I was told I could go. I just wonder what would have happened if I was on my own - not all police are guardian angels.

Opas I wonder if it was a cold wet night when they arrested your husband - that way they spent the rest of their shift in the station with the added benefit of going to court etc.

Paul

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. I fear that their get out out will be based around the legislation that lies behind this phrase on the DVLA / OpenGov  website.

Concerning the temporary import of EU vehicles

It is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country.

[/quote]

As you rightly say, the Direct.Gov web site says:

European Union vehicles

It is the responsibility for

the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country. This

can be achieved by producing ferry tickets.

Also, from the Brittany Ferries FAQ section:

"Do I need to provide my vehicle registration number at the time of booking?

If you are travelling to Spain,

your vehicle registration number will be taken at the check-in booth in

Plymouth when you arrive.

We do not currently take vehicle registration numbers for travel to France."

Has anyone yet asked them why?

EDIT>

Interestingly, a closer read of the Direct .Gov statement assigns responsibilities as follows;

"... it is the responsibility of the keeper to demonstrate that he or she is

eligible to use the vehicle in the UK without registering and taxing it.

It is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country."

I don't know if the concept of keeper as distinct from driver exists in France, but it might be interesting to know what would happen if the 'keeper' was not in the vehicle.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Phil and Pat"]Also, from the Brittany Ferries FAQ section:
"Do I need to provide my vehicle registration number at the time of booking?

If you are travelling to Spain, your vehicle registration number will be taken at the check-in booth in Plymouth when you arrive.

We do not currently take vehicle registration numbers for travel to France."

Has anyone yet asked them why?

[/quote]

Breaking my promise already but to answer this specific point:

Something related to THIS maybe ?

PS: Quoting does not like & it seems [blink]

 

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="opas"]

But no they decided it was illegal to work whist driving on a green card. Someone find me a piece of paper that officially says that and I shall eat my Catalan Dragon hat!

[/quote]

Not wanting to be argumentative and I agree that on the facts we have been given Mr O has been badly treated and some kind of redress is needed.

I would just like to add that last month we came to France with our transit van to do some private work on our own house, and as the same as last year I had to go to our insurers (NFU) to get a 'green card' because it is a commercial vehicle and therefor does not have the required wording (green card) printed on the back of the cover note as does our car. I was asked by the insurance company if we intended to work while we were away in France as they could not issue one if we were.

So may be it's the same whether you drive a car or commercial vehicle you may not be entitled to work and drive on a green card! I might ask next time I am in their office what insurance we would need IF we intended to work, just for curiosity. 

[opas]

No it was a cold wet morning!

At no point was he asked when the car came into the country by the police, they were stuck on the no insurance and working on a green card issue (even though according to them he had not got ins)

The proof of entry was brought up in the courts to release the car along with a valid ins cert.......he gave the same document to the police on duty to  get a paper to release the car as the one that was dismissed by the traffic cops.....only this desk policeman had the noggin to use the phone number on the back to check its validity.

I am repeating myself now.