Will Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I'd have thought that even the most rudimentary school French would enable any English police officer to see that the French insurance certificate that Mr O was carrying (and the vignette that he would have had in the windscreen) was likely to be valid. After all they do say 'certificat d'assurance' and carry both the index number and dates in normal Roman numerals. So the charge is plainly ridiculous in anybody's book."Flogging a dead horse" sounds quite correct, in so far as some people are never likely to accept that Mr O might have been in the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 My feeling is that assuming he is the right he is still pretty unlikely to get satisfaction....I think there comes a time when there are better things to do than chase a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Boy, will I be glad to see the end of this thread. "Flogging a dead horse" is right. How can we comment without hearing both sides of the story?Sid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Exactly, since when did simply being in the right guarantee justice or a positive outcome [:-))]Still, some people seem to need a bit of strife and confrontation in their lives whilst the more pragmatic know when a battle is unwinnable [Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanb Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="Will"]I'd have thought that even the most rudimentary school French would enable any English police officer to see that the French insurance certificate that Mr O was carrying (and the vignette that he would have had in the windscreen) was likely to be valid.[/quote]This raises an interesting point (slightly off-topic, but not much). The green card is essentially a single-language document; only its title appears in more than one language. However, it is supposed to be valid evidence of insurance throughout the "EU plus" group of countries. It is clearly unreasonable to expect all European policemen to understand seventeen languages (or whatever the number is), so the official expectation must be that they are trained to recognize the format - especially since not all the countries use the same alphabet.I don't know whether this is realistic, but is there any other explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="allanb"][quote user="Will"]I'd have thought that even the most rudimentary school French would enable any English police officer to see that the French insurance certificate that Mr O was carrying (and the vignette that he would have had in the windscreen) was likely to be valid.[/quote]This raises an interesting point (slightly off-topic, but not much). The green card is essentially a single-language document; only its title appears in more than one language. However, it is supposed to be valid evidence of insurance throughout the "EU plus" group of countries. It is clearly unreasonable to expect all European policemen to understand seventeen languages (or whatever the number is), so the official expectation must be that they are trained to recognize the format - especially since not all the countries use the same alphabet.I don't know whether this is realistic, but is there any other explanation?[/quote]Yep.All coppers are *******s [6]Must be true my Dad used to sing it to me at bed-time.I dont want to trek back through the thread but I seem to recall that Mr O had to change to Mrs O's vehicle at the last minute, it is just possible that "technically" there could have been an issue with the international insurance card.As most (but probably not all of us are aware) the insured should this document but did you now that for the UK, Northern Island and Cyprus only you must add the signatures of all other users of the vehicle?I thin it is something to do with on the continent a valid vignette is sufficient to tell les flicks that the vehicle is insured no matter who is driving whereas in the UK te insurance certificate will state who is insured or say "any driver" or the driver may have his own policy stating that he is insured to drive other vehicles with the owners consent.I dont think the lack of a signature means that another driver is uninsured in the UK just perhaps that it makes it easier to verify at the roadside.My sympathies are with Mr and Mrs O, I think that they have been treated vey badly and I hope that they do get some closure.I agree with Will that a traffic officer should understand an international insurance certificate, they are in a common format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Very true. The need for all users to sign is something that I suspect a lot of owners of French-registered vehicles are unaware of, and I certainly wouldn't expect a Manchester police constable to know about it. Nevertheless, if the certificate was not signed in this case, it could provide just the sort of technicality that the police could employ to justify their actions. I don't know if it was or wasn't; but I'd have thought that as a professional driver Mr O would most likely have ensured everything like that was in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="allanb"][quote user="Will"]I'd have thought that even the most rudimentary school French would enable any English police officer to see that the French insurance certificate that Mr O was carrying (and the vignette that he would have had in the windscreen) was likely to be valid.[/quote]This raises an interesting point (slightly off-topic, but not much). The green card is essentially a single-language document; only its title appears in more than one language. However, it is supposed to be valid evidence of insurance throughout the "EU plus" group of countries. It is clearly unreasonable to expect all European policemen to understand seventeen languages (or whatever the number is), so the official expectation must be that they are trained to recognize the format - especially since not all the countries use the same alphabet.I don't know whether this is realistic, but is there any other explanation?[/quote]Bravo Allanb, this is exactly what I have been saying since day 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="Will"]Very true. The need for all users to sign is something that I suspect a lot of owners of French-registered vehicles are unaware of, and I certainly wouldn't expect a Manchester police constable to know about it. Nevertheless, if the certificate was not signed in this case, it could provide just the sort of technicality that the police could employ to justify their actions. I don't know if it was or wasn't; but I'd have thought that as a professional driver Mr O would most likely have ensured everything like that was in order.[/quote]Lets hope that they dont read this forum then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="Chancer"]Yep.All coppers are *******s [6]Must be true my Dad used to sing it to me at bed-time.I dont want to trek back through the thread but I seem to recall that Mr O had to change to Mrs O's vehicle at the last minute, it is just possible that "technically" there could have been an issue with the international insurance card.As most (but probably not all of us are aware) the insured should this document but did you now that for the UK, Northern Island and Cyprus only you must add the signatures of all other users of the vehicle?I thin it is something to do with on the continent a valid vignette is sufficient to tell les flicks that the vehicle is insured no matter who is driving whereas in the UK te insurance certificate will state who is insured or say "any driver" or the driver may have his own policy stating that he is insured to drive other vehicles with the owners consent.I dont think the lack of a signature means that another driver is uninsured in the UK just perhaps that it makes it easier to verify at the roadside.My sympathies are with Mr and Mrs O, I think that they have been treated vey badly and I hope that they do get some closure.I agree with Will that a traffic officer should understand an international insurance certificate, they are in a common format.[/quote]I call the xantia my car cos its the one i will take first , but technically it is Mr Os as all the paper work is in his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Will"]Very true. The need for all users to sign is something that I suspect a lot of owners of French-registered vehicles are unaware of, and I certainly wouldn't expect a Manchester police constable to know about it. Nevertheless, if the certificate was not signed in this case, it could provide just the sort of technicality that the police could employ to justify their actions. I don't know if it was or wasn't; but I'd have thought that as a professional driver Mr O would most likely have ensured everything like that was in order.[/quote]Lets hope that they dont read this forum then![/quote]If they don`t now, I am sure there is some miserable git on here somewhere who will contact them to read it and help them get a few more victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I really do hope that you get somewhere with this, personally I dont subscribe to the, forget about it, it is only going to cause you grief, you may lose, it may cost you more money etc, viewpoint, as long as it does not interfere with your health or well being sometimes you just have to make a stand and this IMHO is one of them.Thanks for keeping the forum updated even if you are still taking some flak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 So here is a scenario.Mrs and Mr average in their right hand drive car they have imported from UK, now French reg`d and their 2 kids go to the UK from France for a half term break to tour the lakes and Blackpool, but have not booked a Band B as they are not sure where they are going to visit first. They arrive in the UK on a Saturday, its October and dusk by 3pm. They cruise up the motorway and their now French reg`d car gets stopped for having a defective light. The coppers then decide to do a full check on the car and ask for insurance documents.They booked their ferry online one way because they were waiting to see how the weather was and if not so good would book the tunnel for their return. They tidy their car after a mc Do at the services and throw their spent ferry ticket away with the rubbish.They then cannot prove how long they have been in the UK . They have no address to give, and their re regd car is checked off the chassis /vin no and comes up as unlicensed,The asked for Ins document is in French, the Officer says he does not understand it , says they are not insured and impounds their car and they are left at the roadside.If you ever watch the Traffic Cop type programmes on TV the un insured driver just gets kicked out of his vehicle and the car seized, until of course he turns up with valid insurance and a sum of money for the seizure.I suppose now I am just going round in circles. I only came back on to update the situation. The facts are in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="opas"][quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Will"]Very true. The need for all users to sign is something that I suspect a lot of owners of French-registered vehicles are unaware of, and I certainly wouldn't expect a Manchester police constable to know about it. Nevertheless, if the certificate was not signed in this case, it could provide just the sort of technicality that the police could employ to justify their actions. I don't know if it was or wasn't; but I'd have thought that as a professional driver Mr O would most likely have ensured everything like that was in order.[/quote]Lets hope that they dont read this forum then![/quote]If they don`t now, I am sure there is some miserable git on here somewhere who will contact them to read it and help them get a few more victims.[/quote]I don't think a comment like this is going to gain you any friends on here or elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="opas"]They have no address to give, and their re regd car is checked off the chassis /vin no and comes up as unlicensed,[/quote]Not if they've properly exported it it won't.[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="AnOther"][quote user="opas"]They have no address to give, and their re regd car is checked off the chassis /vin no and comes up as unlicensed,[/quote]Not if they've properly exported it it won't.[;-)][/quote] Oh yes it will, try it and see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Surely the couple in the car would have a spare bulb on them as its part of French regulations isn't it ?Also I'd suggest the liklihood is that they'd have other info confirming their residence.......I suspect the scenario is something like that in the Eurotunnel thread, the policeman asks questions and if the answers aren't what's expected it's red flagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Yes they would have spare bulbs, but they have now been stopped so they just decide to do a roadside check.Yes they probably would have other paperwork relating to where they lived...........Just as my husband did, but that was not accepted was it! I suppose you could put it down to the individual Officers discretion common sense[blink]I will find another true case later, which was posted on another forum and copy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="opas"] Oh yes it will, try it and see![/quote]I have, with my own car, and it shows as exported and did within about a month of registering it in France [;-)]Also a UK regged 2CV I bought shows as exported.EDIT: True it does also say unlicenced but as it's exported it's irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 QUOTED FROM ANOTHER FORUM. A few weeks ago details were posted of theimpounding of my Spanish-registered vehicle by Northamptonshire Policeon the ridiculous grounds that it had "been in the U.K. for more thansix months in twelve without U.K. Road Tax having been paid."It had actually made two visits, in June/July 2008 and then in February/March 2009, a total of 67 days.The police had spotted it on Automatic Number Plate Recognition Cameras on June 21st 2008 and March 27th 2009.They therefore claimed that the car had been in the U.K. for ninemonths. It did not occur to them that the reason they had not seen itfor nine months was because it had returned to Spain.Another nightmare from another foum.The Association of Chief Police Officers has now confirmed to theA.A. and to the U.K. Liberal Democrats, who took up my case, that anyforeign vehicle, seen twice, more than six months apart, WILL beimpounded.The D.V.L.A. confirm this and have refused to moderate their policy.They say that it is up to the driver to prove that his vehicle hasreturned to the continent - a negation of English Common Law, whichstates that you are innocent until proven guilty.In my case, the police officer refused to examine my documents and, quite frankly, just stole the car and tried to extort money.The implications are horrendous for both ex-patriates and tourists visiting the U.K. more than once in a year.So, please warn everyone to keep all ferry tickets, take them in the car and DEMAND that the police officer examines them.Finally, a message to your member, "St. Florentin," who doubted theveracity of the story when it was printed and stated that the policewould show common-sense - "Start living in the 21st Century, when theU.K. police are more interested in milking motorists than fightingcrime."UNQUOTE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 AnO - the DVLA system seems inconsistent. Of three vehicles which we officially exported (on export certificates) back in 2002, only one comes up as exported; the others say 'unlicensed'.I think Mrs O should make it clear that she is quoting above from another forum about a different case, under the aforementioned Operation Andover by the Northamptonshie police. Contrary to some other reports, this is not a country-wide operation - it concerns Northamptonshire, albeit with the apparent backing of DVLA. Certain other forces have seen its somewhat unsound nature and are refusing to apply its flawed logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosub Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="AnOther"][quote user="opas"]They have no address to give, and their re regd car is checked off the chassis /vin no and comes up as unlicensed,[/quote]Not if they've properly exported it it won't.[;-)][/quote]I legally exported my vehicle in 2003, it still shows on the UK site as unlicenced, with no export marker. So I could be in the same deep do-do has Mr O, if I get checked on a visit to the UK. Nothing is ever black and white, what happened too, presumed innocent until proven guilty. If it was me I would pursue it as far as possible.If this was anyone, other than "I,am here in france" they would have got a lot more symphathy and encouragement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 But we are 14 months down the line and the liklihood of getting this money returned doesn't seem that great.....and its quite an investment of time.I think it highlights a bigger issue, do we trust the police force to use their instinct , or not ? If we do we have to accept that sometimes mistakes are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 But the police also have to be prepared to accept their mistakes, and be prepared to drop charges and apologise when they get it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosub Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 [quote user="Russethouse"] But we are 14 months down the line and the liklihood of hood of hhood of ghood of hof time.I think it highlights a bigger issue, do we trust the police force to use their instinct , or not ? If we do we have to accept that sometimes mistakes are made.[/quote]I think not, I sometimes watch those cops and driving programs and in every one I see, the police go out of their way not to take anyone into custody, even if they don't have a driving licence, insurance, MOT etc, (although they will impound the vehicle) the only criterea seems to be, that you can give a verifiable address, so they can send a summons by post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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