Please help.......insurance quandry

[opas]

OK here goes , I will not be thanked by my other half when you read this.

Mr O as some on the forum will be aware goes to UK a few times per year with our fully comp insured car, he goes for around a month to work, he is a HGV driver.

Yesterday he had had enough and decided to cut his stay short and was heading towards the ports (still in Greater Mancester) he was stopped , I believe on the motorway, I do not know why he was originaly stopped (perhaps the french plates?!)  anyway the upshot  is that when they looked at his insurance documents, in french obviously, they said they were not valid for UK, he asked for an interpretor so they could read the documents, but he had the Green slip that comes with the vignette for the window, somehow it came into the conversation that he had been working here and they said it automaticcally invalidated insurance as he was no longer a visitor! he had no UK address to give them so he was locked up for the night and will remain there untill tomorrow when he goes befoe the court, they have impounded the car and will not release it without UK insurance.

 

I have tried every number under the sun this morning, french  ebassy, british embassy , foreigh office , insurance(but that is only for breakdowns today) I have even tried the Motor insurers bureau listed on my groupama policy, either that is busy or not open like all the others.......they could only help in case of a death(fair enough)

 

Someone please help.

[Owens88]

Many sympathies. Dunno what to say though.

 

A few years ago I was hit repeatedly by a LHD Artic while I was on the M1. He was in the 'slow lane' trying to get into the middle lane where I was. He hit my rear left hand side 4 times before he noticed that the space was occupied.

TG I was in a heavy car on a dryish road otherwise I would have spun and not be here now (crowded M1 70ish  mph  !).

 

Anyway that truck was part of a fleet of 50 lhd artics owned and  insured in Austria but had been working Britain for 6 months at least. Yes I had the police there and yes MIB eventually kicked in (Months rather than days) for the truck's insurers but NO nobody impounded a vehicle and NO nobody was in the slightest way disciplined. Apparently the police officesr concerned only filed a minimal report as I had no apparent injury at the time.

Mr O seems to be on the wrong end of a bizarre story. I hope he is out soon.

 

Bon Courage.

 

John

[Cerise]

Opas - if you actually know your local insurance person, try ringing them at home.  I know it is not the sort of thing you would normally do but being locked up is a bit of an emergency!  Our own insurance agent was great help to friends in big emergency (fire) and didn't mind being disturbed on a Sunday - they can usully get hold of the appropriate emergency person. 

Good luck - you lust be worried.

 

[cooperlola]

Baf found this piece of legislation and quoted it on another thread recently:

The european commission appears to disagree with you SD.

From

TAXATION OF CARS TRANSFERRED WITHIN THE COMMUNITY OR USED REGULARLY ON CROSS-BORDER JOURNEYS

INFORMATION DOCUMENT FROM THE COMMISSION ON THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF THE EUROPEAN CITIZEN (TAXUD/255/02)

09.09.2002

The Directive provides that the exemption may be granted for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months (not necessarily coincident with the calendar year; Articles 3 and 4(2)). This applies whether the car is used for private or business purposes.

The Directive does not indicate what kind of proof has to be brought to show how long the vehicle has remained in the territory of a given Member State. Although Member States are free to decide what proof should be brought, the means they choose have to comply with the legislation on freedom of movement.

37 Here it is appropriate to refer to Article 62 of the EC Treaty which prohibits Member States from using checking methods which require the completion of formalities at the Community's internal borders.

38 The Commission considers that the six-month period provided for in the Directive will generally be sufficiently long to enable citizens to exercise in full their right of freedom of movement in a Member State other than the one in which they are normally resident. It is not unreasonable to suppose that, if a citizen remains in another Member State for more than six months, this implies a degree of permanence which allows the Member State in question to levy the regular road tax and even require registration involving dues (fees) in connection with the registration of that car.

However, so as to ensure respect for the principle of the free movement of persons, the condition should be applied reasonably, guided by common sense and taking account of its aim, which is to prevent abuses as well as fraud.

I would suggest that in the given circumstances providing that the person is a UK resident and that the vehicle is legally taxed and insured there is no intention to defraud and as per the EU commisssion common sense applies.

Boiling a frog

You might try faxing this to the police station?  Or a local solicitor - which he may well need, by the sound of things.  Good luck.

[JMB]

Wow this sounds grim. Have you got protection juradique on your motor or household insurance? They should be able to help. Or perhaps your breakdown insurance. Anyway I really hope you have good ending and Mr. Opas escapes the clutches of the vehicle gestapo.

   

[opas]

I had already thought of trying to contact our agent, but all I know is her first name and the village she lives in, nothing else.

If he is illegal in UK driving on Green insurance whilst working, what about all the cross boarder workers ? half of the south of france must have illegan cars right now with the prtuguese here for the fruit.

[opas]

Coops , I do not have access to a fax, if anyone on the forum does and will do this on my behalf I will do a search for the fax no NOW

 

Thank you in advance/

[woolybananasbrother]

My daughter broke every rule in the book for years but was only stopped once because the car had been picked up a number of times late at night on surveillance cameras and was therefore suspect, but at no time was her legality questioned as in the present case. Sounds to me as if plod is trying for an easy prosecution.

The not having an address thing so kept overnight in nick is not uncommon though. Been threatened with it myself.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="opas"]

Coops , I do not have access to a fax, if anyone on the forum does and will do this on my behalf I will do a search for the fax no NOW

 

Thank you in advance/

[/quote]I don't myself, sorry.  But maybe post the request elsewhere, as somebody who does might not read an insurance/driving thread?

Why does sh*t always happen on a Sunday?

[opas]

Coops do you know where this piece of legislation came from...ie the full version .

[Boiling a frog]

I have got to admit I am puzzled by this.

Your husband is driving a French registered car with insurance issued by a French insurance coy.

This insurance, unless highly unusual, will cover him driving in any european country.

It matters not a jot whether he is working in the UK or any other circumstances.

It will cover him for third party risks and the insurance coy cannot, by law, void this part of his cover.

Neither can the police.

Third party cover is all that is legally required.

I would suggest that you contact a solicitor in the UK and also contact the police office where he is being held  and ask to speak to the senior officer and explain these facts .

Police officers do make mistakes

[cooperlola]

I too, cannot see anything wrong with what opas's o/h has done, BaF.  There must be loads of people who drive all over Europe working in different countries - it cannot be realistic to be insured in every single one.  I'm sure the police are wrong, but persuading them of that on a Sunday is something else entirely..

[woolybananasbrother]

Mistakes in their favour. Yes definitely a solicitor, which the police should already have supplied I think.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="opas"]Coops do you know where this piece of legislation came from...ie the full version .[/quote]

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/other_taxes/passenger_car/index_en.htm

[opas]

thanks again Coops.

 

On reading this through I do not actually find anything relating to insurance, perhaps I have missed something. I am sorry but my head is spinning and my stomach churning as I cannot do anything at the moment.

[cooperlola]

Although I agree it relates to taxation primarily, it is the free movement principal which is on point, to my mind.  But the insurance company must be at the forefront here and the above suggestion of contacting your agent seems to be a good one.  If the insurance is valid for using the car to get to and from work and covers Europe, then what is wrong with it?  Your o/h should definately talk to a solcitior, imo - there should be one on duty, even on a Sunday.

[gosub]

I can send a fax for you, if you give me the details.

[opas]

I have just re telephoned the place he is being held, he has seen a solicitor. I asked to speak with MrO but they said they had too many in the cells to deal with phone calls, but I could try this evening and if it has quietened down then we could speak.

 

I was also told off for telling him that they were holding him under false pretenses........it was his job to decide who is right or wrong not mine!

oh joy

[woolybananasbrother]

Funny, I thought that was the job of the magistrate.

[opas]

[:D]

 

Never been to court myself, except on jury sevice about 30 years ago.

So what if the powers that be tomorrow are using the same bit of mis-information that the police have obviously used?

I do not see some magistrate reading our forum today and then using that in court tomorrow, How do they get the clear cut answer and where do they get it from.....because I want to see that same bit of info.

I am so frustrated . I know I should not leave the house for fear that I miss an important call....but I feel some fresh air is needed now.

[woolybananasbrother]

solicitor should help

[woolybananasbrother]

Fax from insurance company might help

[cooperlola]

When you speak to your o/h, I would also find out who the solicitor is and try to get some info' to them, as - as Puzzled says - it's unlikely they'll be up to speed on the ins and outs of European law.

 

Here's the insurance stuff, and it seems to me to confirm that your o/h is not in the wrong:

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/living/car/insurance/index_en.html

[Boiling a frog]

Here is advice from the Motor insurance Bureau for police

Visiting Motorists – Information for Police

 

The points and summary chart below are intended to provide a brief guide to the insurance position on foreign registered vehicles and UK vehicles with foreign insurance.

 

The chart will be completed as information becomes available.

 

Foreign Vehicles

 

•           A Green Card on a foreign registered vehicle – This provides evidence that the third party liability cover required by law is in force. However for visitors from the EU and certain other countries a Green Card is not legally required. A Certificate of Insurance or equivalent may provide proof of insurance. For further information please see the chart below.

 

•           If no documents are produced some countries allow general access to their insurance database – see chart.

 

•           Many European policies cover any driver even if not named on the documents. There is no driving other vehicles extension.

 

•           It is an offence not to re-register the vehicle if it is in the UK in excess of 6 months within a 12 months period. If there is an intention to reside permanently in the UK from the outset, the vehicle should be re-registered immediately (See also the “Visitors to the UK” area.

 

•           In some European countries, for example Poland, if the vehicle is sold, there is a legal obligation to transfer the insurance to the new owner.

 

UK Registered Vehicle – Foreign Insurance

 

General Position

 

•           The insurance may have been obtained and provided in good faith but it does not comply with Section 145 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 unless the insurer complies with the following criteria:

 

-           Cover on a UK vehicle should only be given by an authorised insurer who is approved under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and who is a member of MIB - Section 145(5) of the Road Traffic Act refers.

 

-          If the insurance company is not a member of MIB the third party liability insurance does not comply the law here.

 

UK Vehicles being exported

 

There is an exemption from the general position following the implementation of the 5^th Motor Insurance Directive into UK Law.

 

If a UK vehicle is being exported to another EEA state (the EEA comprises EU countries plus Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein), an insurer in that state can give cover on the vehicle for 30 days, to allow it to be taken to that state and re-registered there.

 

The risk is assumed by the insurer in the member state of destination of the vehicle being imported, who will ultimately be responsible for compensation in respect of any accidents occurring during the 30 day period".

  

The enclosed link provides further information:

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20072403_en.pdf

 

 

Accident with a foreign motorist

 

•           If the insurer’s name is known check the MIB website for any Green Card agents who will handle the claim on behalf of the foreign insurer.

 

•           If the insurer’s name is not known contact the MIB’s Green Card Department on 01908 830001.

 

•           If the accident involves a foreign lorry take the registration number from the front of vehicle (there may be a different number on the trailer) as well as the policy and Green Card numbers.

 

•           For security reasons we can’t reproduce a Green Card here. However the numbered boxes relate as follows:

 

o 3 - Validity dates

o 4 - Green Card number

o 5 - Registration or chassis number

o 6 – Category and make of vehicle

o 7 - Policyholder and user name and address

o 8 - Insurer’s name

 

For details of arrangements for individual countries please see the chart.

 

 

Country	Green card essential	Policy contract covers any authorised driver	Insurance transfers with sale of vehicle	Website for insurance check (if applicable)	Signatory to Multilateral Agreement*
Albania	Yes				No
Andorra	No	Yes	No		Yes
Austria	No			www.vvo.at	Yes
Belarus	Yes	Yes	No		No
Belgium	No	Yes	Only for 16 days and subject to strict conditions		Yes
Bosnia & Herzegovina	Yes			http://www.bzkbih.ba/en/stream.php?kat=101	No
Bulgaria	No				Yes
Croatia	No			www.huo.hr	Yes
Cyprus	No	No	No		Yes
Czech Rep	No	Yes	No	www.ckp.cz	Yes
Denmark	No	Yes	No		Yes
Estonia	No			www.lkf.ee	Yes
F.Y.R.O.M.	Yes	Yes	Yes	http://www.nibm.com.mk/advanced_searchbox_en.php	No
Finland	No	Yes	Only for 7 days		Yes
France	No	Yes	No		Yes
Germany	No	Yes	Yes		Yes
Greece	No	Yes	No		Yes
Hungary	No	Yes	No		Yes
Iceland	No	Yes	Only for 14 days		Yes
Ireland	No	No	No		Yes
Islamic Rep Of Iran	Yes				No
Israel	Yes				No
Italy	No	Yes	Possible		Yes
Latvia	No	Yes	No	www.ltab.lv/en/infosys/default.htm	Yes

 

Country	Green card essential	Policy contract covers any authorised driver	Insurance transfers with sale of vehicle	Website for insurance check (if applicable)	Signatories to Multilateral Agreement*
Lithuania	No	Yes	Yes although new owner must advise insurers within 15 days	www.cab.lt	Yes
Luxembourg	No	Yes	No		Yes
Malta	No	Can be any driver with age restrictions	No		Yes
Moldova	Yes				No
Morocco	Yes				No
Netherlands	No	Yes	No		Yes
Norway	No	Yes	No		Yes
Poland	No	Yes	Yes		Yes
Portugal	No			www.isp.pt	Yes
Romania	No			www.cedam.csa-isc.ro	Yes
Serbia & Montenegro	Yes	Yes	Yes		No
Slovak Rep	No	Yes	No	www.skp.sk	Yes
Slovenia	No	Yes	No	www.zav-zdruzenje.si	Yes
Spain	No	Yes	No		Yes
Sweden	No	Yes	No		Yes
Switzerland	No	Yes	No		Yes
Tunisia	Yes				No
Turkey	Yes	Yes	Yes		No
Ukraine	Yes				No

 

* The Multilateral Agreement is an agreement between Bureaux where each Bureau guarantees the cost of claims involving vehicles normally based in its country on the basis of a valid registration plate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cat]

Could you phone the police again, and ask them for the name of the solicitor, and a contact number for him/her?  It would save you having to wait until tonight.

Just a thought, is the driving licence a French one as well, or is it still a UK one, as that could pose problems if you have no UK address?