Carte Vitale

[Ken]

Just curious but---! The Government (French) are cracking down on fraud, at least that's the impression given on the news channels. What I don't understand, but perhaps someone here could enlighten me, is why is it linked to the Carte Vitale? The only use my Carte gets is when I present it to a doctor or at a chemist. As far as I know that's its only use. A credit card and other banking tools I can understand, but this card defeats me with regard fraud. I'm assuming that fraudsters are obtaining money with it, but how?

[Lehaut]

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/replay-radio/le-vrai-du-faux/y-a-t-il-vraiment-des-millions-de-cartes-vitales-en-trop-qui-circulent-en-france_5231911.html

Might be something they have seized on in an attempt to digitalise, linked to the ID card and introduce a new system?  From the article there may be more floating about than there are people.  Like you say (if it indeed you and not the other Ken!) there does not seem to be massive financial fraud. I can be used in cases of false ID too.

Cartes en surnombre ne veut pas nécessairement dire fraude

Avoir une carte vitale ne signifie pas nécessairement avoir des droits ouverts qui permettent une prise en charge. Ce donc n’est pas parce qu’il existe un reliquat de cartes vitale en surnombre que celles-ci sont utilisées à des fins frauduleuses.

Deux principaux mécanismes de fraude à la carte vitale peuvent se rencontrer, précise par ailleurs la Direction de la sécurité sociale: le détournement de la carte vitale ou la fausse carte vitale. Or, les cas d’usurpation d’identité par l’utilisation d’une carte vitale par un tiers ne concernent qu’un nombre réduit de situations du fait de la couverture très large de la population par l’assurance maladie obligatoire.

Concernant l’existence de fausses cartes Vitale, la Sécurité sociale précise qu'elle  "est en réalité très limitée, les caisses gestionnaires d’un régime d’assurance maladie ayant mené de manière continue depuis 2019, un important travail de fiabilisation du parc de cartes Vitale ".

Invité jeudi 4 août, sur RTL, à donner des chiffres précis sur le nombre de cartes en surnombre qui circulent et la fraude potentielle associée, le ministre de l'Economie Bruno Le Maire a répondu que "même s'il y avait une seule une carte conduisant à une fraude cela justifierait qu'on mette en place des mesures de contrôle plus strictes".

[betise]

My sister in law used to be a midwife here, she said that it was not uncommon for several people to use the same card. It seems no checks were made, and that one "card holder" gave birth to 3 children in the space of a year!

[Lehaut]

This topic was also on the French news at lunch time 30 May.  I think there is going to be a move to copy Belgium - incorporating the Carte Vitale into the ID card chip.  This should reduce the fraud aspect of it.  It can be scanned at the pharmacy and Drs/Hospital with new equipment.

[menthe]

There are 2 personal annecdotes that I can recount on this subject of fraudulent use of cvs.

Admittedly, the first annecdote concerned something that happened several years ago.  A friend had left France to go back to the UK.  After a year or so back there, she wanted to return to France to have her cataracts extracted.

Nobody had asked her to return her cv when she left France.  She wanted to use my address to give to the clinic that was going to do the op.  Friend as she was, I refused to be part of such a fraudulent activity and so I said no.  I believe she got someone else to agree to provide her  with a base and the operations were done.

The second annecdote happened just about a year ago.  My French neighbour came to me for help to "verify" her cv.  As she had no internet or computer, she came to me.  As she is a good friend as well as a neighbour, I agreed to look at what was involved.

The site looked authentic and it requested that she paid in €1 to confirm her details and they would authenticate and mis à jour her card.  She had no bank details or card with her (in fact, I am not sure she even has a credit card).  So, I just went through everything with her and paid with my card.

After she went home contented and happy, I began to doubt the authenticity of the transaction I had done on line.  After only a couple of minutes' googling, I realised it was indeed a scam so I got on to my bank immediately and cancelled my card.

When I told the neighbour what had happened, do you think she was concerned about my bank details having been compromised?  Not a bit of it, she went on about her details and how someone might steal her identity.  In vain did I try to convince her that the only person who stood to lose anything was me!

 

[Riggers]

6 hours ago, betise said:

My sister in law used to be a midwife here, she said that it was not uncommon for several people to use the same card. It seems no checks were made, and that one "card holder" gave birth to 3 children in the space of a year!

My niece did her midwifery in London,there were two common scams, One “was we’ve come to visit our relatives before the baby is born but I have gone into premature labour”,she would then produce a bouncing full term baby,and say she’d got her dates wrong. The other was “ I didn’t know I was pregnant “ they would check the records and discover the same thing had happened to her the year before in another of the trust hospitals a mile or so away 

[Ken]

19 hours ago, betise said:

My sister in law used to be a midwife here, she said that it was not uncommon for several people to use the same card. It seems no checks were made, and that one "card holder" gave birth to 3 children in the space of a year!

I'm still non the wiser I'm afraid! If several people use the same card, and I can see that would be possible, any monies paid out would be reimbursed to the card holder, not to the people using the card. So; what would be the point of using someone else's card in the first place?

[Ken]

15 hours ago, Lehaut said:

This topic was also on the French news at lunch time 30 May.  I think there is going to be a move to copy Belgium - incorporating the Carte Vitale into the ID card chip.  This should reduce the fraud aspect of it.  It can be scanned at the pharmacy and Drs/Hospital with new equipment.

I believe the Government is, by the end of the year going to make the combining of the Carte Vitale and I.D into one. Aside from not knowing what fraud is actually taking place just why, if there is fraud, don't the government ( and chemists, doctors et. al.) ask for I.D when giving over the Carte Vitale. Surely that would be just as valid and a lot less  expensive than setting up a whole new system! It also raises another question for ex pats who don't have an I.D. card. How are they going to accommodate us, there are many in this situation!

[Lehaut]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

How are they going to accommodate us, there are many in this situation!

 I doubt this consideration is very high on the agenda of the French Government,  given the attitude of the authorities the last time they tried to reverse the health cover for "ressortissants britanniques" .

If you are worried about it, the solution is relatively simple thought time consuming.

[ssomon]

On 31/05/2023 at 07:09, Ken said:

just why, if there is fraud, don't the government ( and chemists, doctors et. al.) ask for I.D when giving over the Carte Vitale. Surely that would be just as valid and a lot less  expensive than setting up a whole new system! It also raises another question for ex pats who don't have an I.D. card. How are they going to accommodate us, there are many in this situation!

My Titre de Séjour has always been accepted as identification in situations like that. Try using yours.

[menthe]

Me too, I use my carte de séjour, accepted instead of my passport at the private hospital where I had my last operation.  It's a relief not to have to take my passport, for one thing, it doesn't fit into my cardholder🙂

[ssomon]

I think the only people who have problems are those who don't have the correct paperwork.

[Judith]

Finally back online - no probs, just been having a lovely holiday - and what a lot I have missed!

But as far as the ID / CV combining idea goes, maybe it will work, but for those who use their passport as ID (in particular we Brits), I cannot see how that would work.  My CV has my photo on it anyway, and I can only think of 2 people who might be mistaken for me, my sister and my neice, neither of whom are likely to want to use it, nor likely to try to do such a silly thing.  And if I know anything about introduction of big computer systems, it'll fail if they try it, anyhow!!

Must get on, loads of catch up to do!

[Ken]

On 02/06/2023 at 09:49, ssomon said:

My Titre de Séjour has always been accepted as identification in situations like that. Try using yours.

You have missed the point completely. The French will combine their i.d. card with the carte Vitale, you don't have an I.d. card. It isn't about proving who you are, I would have thought that obvious; it is about combining two documents, one of which ex-pats don't have!!  I have a Titre de Séjour, Passport , Driving licence even a gun licence; all with a photo on.  Proving who I am is easy.

[Judith]

That's not what it says, however, not only does it not worry me, and I am not going to get into arguments, it is highly likely it will not happen given it's a big computer system and we all know how many of those  land up on the cutting room floor!

[betise]

On 31/05/2023 at 07:09, Ken said:

 if there is fraud, don't the government ( and chemists, doctors et. al.) ask for I.D when giving over the Carte Vitale. Surely that would be just as valid and a lot less  expensive than setting up a whole new system! It also raises another question for ex pats who don't have an I.D. card. 

This is what is *supposed* to happen in hospitals, anyone with an appointment is supposed to show a form of ID and their carte vitale. The problem arises when someone who is entitled to free healthcare "lends" their card to someone else, who then profits from free healthcare, creating an extra strain on the system. 

[anotherbanana]

That doesn't surprise  me at all. I imagine that there is quite an “industry” in passing cards round, faking them etc as there is for claiming benefits.

[DraytonBoy]

I had an op last week and during my two day stay no one asked for any ID.

[alittlebitfrench]

9 hours ago, DraytonBoy said:

I had an op last week and during my two day stay no one asked for any ID.

I have been in and out of hospital for the last two months…..including three times going to A&E.

Every time I have to show my ID with my CV.

[DraytonBoy]

The only time I was asked for my CV was when I was leaving and that was just to settle the bill. 

[Ken]

16 hours ago, betise said:

This is what is *supposed* to happen in hospitals, anyone with an appointment is supposed to show a form of ID and their carte vitale. The problem arises when someone who is entitled to free healthcare "lends" their card to someone else, who then profits from free healthcare, creating an extra strain on the system. 

I'm not at all sure that is what is 'supposed' to happen.  The Carte Vitale has my photograph on it, surely that is the purpose of it, to prove my I.D!   If cards are being 'lent' then surely the same fraudulent activity would apply to any other card , be it I.D. or a combined ID and CV if the person receiving it can't be bothered to even compare a photograph it doesn't matter what you present to them!! Incidentally, I have never been asked for I.D. when presenting my CV. I would ask the person why;  given the CV has my photo on it, it's an absurdity!

[DaveLister]

The only time I haven't been asked for my carte vitale and insurance details was when I was taken into hospital under blues and twos.

Yesterday I had a clinic appointment. Before getting to the receptionist there was a terminal where you had to enter your CV, then scan in your insurance, and ID. This was then checked by the receptionist and put on file. I'm sure, if the combined card comes about, there will be a means of accepting other forms of ID just as there is now.

[alittlebitfrench]

1 hour ago, DaveLister said:

The only time I haven't been asked for my carte vitale and insurance details was when I was taken into hospital under blues and twos.

Yesterday I had a clinic appointment. Before getting to the receptionist there was a terminal where you had to enter your CV, then scan in your insurance, and ID. This was then checked by the receptionist and put on file. I'm sure, if the combined card comes about, there will be a means of accepting other forms of ID just as there is now.

Yep, it is the same system here for hospital based appointments. You have to talk to a machine. It is fun watching the old folk trying to use it. It passes the time.

[alittlebitfrench]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

I'm not at all sure that is what is 'supposed' to happen.  The Carte Vitale has my photograph on it, surely that is the purpose of it, to prove my I.D!   If cards are being 'lent' then surely the same fraudulent activity would apply to any other card , be it I.D. or a combined ID and CV if the person receiving it can't be bothered to even compare a photograph it doesn't matter what you present to them!! Incidentally, I have never been asked for I.D. when presenting my CV. I would ask the person why;  given the CV has my photo on it, it's an absurdity!

There are thousands and thousands of fake CV’s in circulation. It is big business. I think that is point. There must be a way of cross referencing your ID against your CV.

There is health tourism in France as well you know. 
 

Go to any city A&E in France and half the people if not more look very dodge….or just very scary. Which is why you have bodyguards.

A&E is horrible in France. It is OK once you pass through to the care bit….but the waiting room. Horrible.

[DaveLister]

6 minutes ago, alittlebitfrench said:

It is fun watching the old folk trying to use it. It passes the time.

Down here the 'old folk' ignore the machines and go straight to the receptionist. Normally interrupting whoever is at the desk.