idun Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Had my son on the phone about an hour ago, he was distraught, I thought something horrible had happened to him by the sound of him......... and from what he said, he felt like it had.I agree, there has been too little done by the vast majority of muslims to show that they cannot tolerate those that do abhorrent acts in their name and as the imans do as they please, I cannot see it getting any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="powerdesal"]Catalpa wrote:......''And we didn't define a whole section of the British public after Hungerford or Dunblane''Didn't we ?The whole shooting community was effectively punished for the actions of a couple of nut cases.[/quote]Indeed, PD; and post Snowdrop and the subsequent cack handed law, gun crimes in the UK have ceased, haven't they![Www]No doubt the Met's Operation Trident (and its successor) is just to avoid any real work........[/quote]It is my opinion and possibly that of a fair number of others, that the words"shooting community" and "nutcases" are not mutually exclusive. Just as it appears that there are some contributors to this thread who seem to be suggesting that the words "Muslim" and " terrorist " are not mutually exclusive. Some of the opinions being expressed here are disturbing, to say the least. "Not like us" seems to be, in the minds of some, to mean intellectually inferior, incapable of independent thought, brainwashed by religious conviction......oh dear. I would like to believe that if someone from another country or religion were to meet you and hear your views, they would not automatically assume that I, simply by virtue of my shared nationality and religion(or lack thereof) shared your views and opinions. In other words, I hope "they" don't lump "us" all together in quite they way that some people seem to be doing to "them".And lest anyone wishes to suggest that I've contradicted myself above, I'd just add that I will never fathom why anyone with a brain would want to own a gun. I am sure there are situations where guns are required, but they are rare and, IMO, do not justify the ownership of one. You may disagree. In the spirit of what 12 people died for today, that's your prerogative.(edited by a Mod for html) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I was not impressed by the cartoons, and felt they were ill-judged.I think that the combination of Charlie Hebdothe Prophet's birthdaythe first day of the salesprovided an ideal moment for an attack.I still see this as an inevitable escalation in the conflict between the French State which has not seen a way of giving any ground to a whole sector of the population and an increasingly radicalised and manipulated group who feel abandoned and disenfranchised.The problem is that I feel that France is a tenderbox; not stable in the 'British' tradition, and I really fear for much more widespread events of different sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="You can call me Betty"] ....... it appears that there are some contributors to this thread who seem to be suggesting that the words "Muslim" and " terrorist " are not mutually exclusive............[/quote]I thought the thread was turning into a recruitment drive for a French wrinkly expat chapter of PEGIDA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I think that, if France has anything to be worried about now, it's whether (or rather, to what extent)this will advance the political influence of Marine Le Pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindal1000 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I was staying in a hotel in Bordeaux last night and there was an interesting interview on BBC world news (hardtalk). I can't remember the name of the guy but he appeared really knowledgeable about the issues underlying the development of ISIS and power struggles in the middle east. Worth listening to. I do feel when I hear people bashing all Muslims that you have allowed the terrorists to achieve their aims of creating an atmosphere of terror, hatred and anger. I know it sounds trite and old fashioned but you cannot fight hatred with more hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="nomoss"]I think that disgusting defamation of people's deeply felt beliefs goes far beyond freedom of expression, and is actually a deliberate intent to offend, not a particularly witty and artistic creation.Preaching on the rights to freedom of expression is a little curious on a forum where you can't even say shit if you step in it [8-)][/quote]And yet the people that have committed this attack - and their supporters - would wish to impose on everyone else a regime that would suppress all forms of criticism and expression of thought that was contrary to their limited mindset.I don't think that you think that the killing of 12 people was a proportionate response to "offence" caused by cartoons in a very-small-circulation rag ... I have deeply-felt beliefs (not necessarily religious) that are deeply offended every day, but somehow I don't think it would even begin to cross the minds of anyone here to try to understand me if I decided to kill those who offended me.(off topic) Interesting ... when you go into "quote" mode you can actually see what naughty words the quoted poster used ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonemachine Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="nomoss"]I think that disgusting defamation of people's deeply felt beliefs goes far beyond freedom of expression, and is actually a deliberate intent to offend, not a particularly witty and artistic creation.Preaching on the rights to freedom of expression is a little curious on a forum where you can't even say shit if you step in it [8-)][/quote]Are you trying to justify the revolting murder of 10 journalists/illustrators and two policemen in the name of a "deeply felt belief" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]I think that, if France has anything to be worried about now, it's whether (or rather, to what extent)this will advance the political influence of Marine Le Pen.[/quote]I suspect if there were an election at present, the FN would win without needing a second round. And I don't think that that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="bonemachine"][quote user="nomoss"]I think that disgusting defamation of people's deeply felt beliefs goes far beyond freedom of expression, and is actually a deliberate intent to offend, not a particularly witty and artistic creation.Preaching on the rights to freedom of expression is a little curious on a forum where you can't even say shit if you step in it [8-)][/quote]Are you trying to justify the revolting murder of 10 journalists/illustrators and two policemen in the name of a "deeply felt belief" ?[/quote]Of course not. I am just pointing out the stupidity of insulting people for little or no reason. Or is there a justification which I have missed - apart from the esoteric notion of freedom of speech, which is only an illusion.I'm saying that deliberately insulting people via their belief system is not a particularly good way of winning hearts and minds, and that the people that did so were quite aware of the possible effects. France and the French used to be noted for diplomacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Unfortunately it's high on impossible for me to do a link or reproduce the cartoon here due to software constraints, but the New Yorker reproduced an excellent cartoon from a couple of years ago in tribute.Basically, it shows a blank square, above which are the words:" Please enjoy this culturally, ethically, religiously and politically correct cartoon responsibly. Thank you" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="nomoss"]I think that disgusting defamation of people's deeply felt beliefs goes far beyond freedom of expression, and is actually a deliberate intent to offend, not a particularly witty and artistic creation.Preaching on the rights to freedom of expression is a little curious on a forum where you can't even say shit if you step in it [8-)][/quote]Oh I quite agree, Nomoss.Excepting..........If you want me to "respect" mentally challenged and deranged persons who follow a "religion" called Scientology, because a nut from California, L Ron Hubbard wrote a SciFi book in the 1930s; or Rastafarians, high on ganja; or even Trekies, then sorry.Californian Americans invent a new "Religion" on an almost weekly basis.Insofar as Islam is concerned, before mounting any valid opinion, I would suggest one firstly needs to make a study of Qur'an (The Koran) and the essential Hadiths and ponder just why there were so many different schisms and sects. For example, the Wahhabic sect from Saudi Arabia, which is unfortunately, behind so many terrorist groups.Next I do suggest you ponder why exactly, the British government repealed the Blasphemy Act? And why is it, the Anglican and Catholic churches and the Pope; Judaism and etc are fair game for satirists with no let or hindrance? Yet, Muslims, Hindus, etc are sacrosanct?Good reading on such topics emerges from, for example, John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath. Sinclair Lewis's wonderful book (made into a film) called Elmer Gantry, parodies the life of the fundamentalist preacher, Aimee Semple McPherson, who raised huge sums of money and err, sort of vanished......American fundamentalist "Christians", enjoy such esoteric adherents as Snake Handlers.I believe what one has to accept is Islam has been hijacked by various sociopaths, in the name of religion, whose agenda, however is rather different.As a grasp of consideration of Qur'an might show.But of course, the Leftwing Liberals, intent on their destruction of balanced and organised Western democratic society in their myopic pursuit of a utopia on Earth are intent on creating a dystopia, without actually realising it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Duplicated post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]Basically, it shows a blank square, above which are the words:" Please enjoy this culturally, ethically,religiously and politically correct cartoon responsibly. Thank you"[/quote][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6wUoKACcAEe2hU.jpg[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 It sounds oh so right and reasonable to defend people's entitlement to their deeply held beliefs. Unless of course you consider that these deeply held beliefs were imposed on them by brain-washing so that they can be manipulated by power freaks.What about the rights of these murdered innocents and their families? The dimwits who carry out these attacks no doubt have deeply held beliefs, based on what? Superstitious clap-trap - which applies to religious dogma in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thanks, Sue. I honk it says all I want to. I'd rather just leave this now, as I can see we are off into the realms of a pseudo-intellectual pissing contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote user="Pickles"] And yet the people that have committed this attack - and their supporters - would wish to impose on everyone else a regime that would suppress all forms of criticism and expression of thought that was contrary to their limited mindset.[/quote]That is true, but deliberately upsetting them is not a constructive nor intelligent approach to countering their ideas.[quote user="Pickles"] (off topic) Interesting ... when you go into "quote" mode you can actually see what naughty words the quoted poster used ...[/quote]I was quite aware when I posted the remark that the "naughty word" could be viewed that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote]I'd rather just leave this now, as I can see we are off into the realms of a pseudo-intellectual pissing contest.[/quote]The corollary to which statement, of course, implies anyone with much of a brain who bothers to study and research the subject and reaches conclusions, which they state is, a self-delusion-ist who, arrogantly, believes they are smart.Interesting perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just thinking 'of course those whose origin is firmly routed in the West would not act badly against one another'Then you think about the trouble between national sides as well as local sides. And where were the two World Wars located - all based on beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 This article gives a pretty good account of the background leading up to all this:www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11331840/France-a-nation-on-tenterhooks-since-three-lone-wolf-attacks-before-Christmas.htmlThe feeling I have spoken about in earlier posts is backed up by this paragraphThe anger of second- and third-generation Muslims exploded into riots in poor suburbs around Paris and other cities in 2005. Today those deprived neighbourhoods are awash with guns, including Kalashnikov automatic rifles that flooded into France after the Balkan wars of the 1990s, security sources say. Police admit that many such areas are virtually beyond their control. They face attack when they try to enter them, and are forced to go in large numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 ''I'd just add that I will never fathom why anyone with a brain would want to own a gun. I am sure there are situations where guns are required, but they are rare and, IMO, do not justify the ownership of one. You may disagree. In the spirit of what 12 people died for today, that's your prerogative.''I do disagree.This thread is however, not the place for any subsequent discussion of that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 From the recent reports, it sounds like the culprits want to die in a hail of bullets. I doubt whether they are going to survive their next encounter with the French law enforcement agencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yes, which is why women should be used to kill them because then they cannot go to heaven and get all their virgins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 But if they had wanted to be real marytyrs they would have allowed themselves to be killed en situ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I have tried several times to post on this thread, but I just cannot find the right words to express how angry I am.I am also appalled and dismayed by some of the comments here.That's all I can say right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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