Jump to content

Charlie Hebdo


Pickles
 Share

Recommended Posts

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

Watching the film of this terrible killing I (and Mrs 'Q') were wondering how they came up with these two. As far as we can see they had their heads covered in all the video's. We both appreciate they are 'known' but can't see the actual physical link unless of course the French security services were watching them in which case why did they let it happen. I also think the word terrorist is incorrect as far as these two are concerned. The normal 'mode' would have been to go in and simply blow themselves up along with everyone else or to shoot them all then blow themselves up. The martyrdom comes from dying in the act which does not seem to be the case. Another thing, if possible, the police need to take these two alive to deny them of any form of martyrdom and also for intelligence purposes.

I have been to visit the guy in our village with the B&B this morning. His wife went on a flight to Denmark last night (they are both Danish citizens) and he has boarded up his B&B and will be following her shortly. Certain villagers are walking around with a smug smile on their face this morning. So thats one less Muslim Le Penn needs to worry about.

[/quote] Well, I think even Inspector Clouseau would have considered the fact than one of them left his Identity Card in the first getaway car as worthy of consideration as a clue...l[/quote]

And the driver who handed himself in after which everyone in his class tweeted that they were with him in class at the time of the shooting (BBC News). An identity card left in a car does not mean the person was in it at the time. They may have been in the car before and dropped it then. Personally if it is them I think somebody f*cked up somewhere and there will be a lot of people trying to cover the a*ses which is why I suspect they will never make it to court. Don't forget the French police are not that clever, they still have not caught the person or persons who shot the British family in the Alps. Perhaps the problem with the French polce is that there is too many Inspector Clouseau's in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 245
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

[quote user="Quillan"]And the driver who handed himself in after which everyone in his class tweeted that they were with him in class at the time of the shooting (BBC News). [/quote]

I read that. And then I read it again. The tweets concerned the brother (or similar relative) of the driver, who was arrested in the general sweep-up of related persons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Catalpa"][quote user="mint"]OH says it might be brutal and unethical and the State couldn't do it but he would line up all the families and relatives of the killers and stand them  in front of the police and move in. [/quote]

[8-)] So he would be happy with assuming guilt by association and irrespective of the family's beliefs or even horror at what their relatives have done, your OH would be happy to walk them towards two proven psychopaths?

Would your OH recommend an age cut off? For example, if there are siblings aged under 11, say, would they be excused being used as a human shield... would they be let off but risk becoming orphans if the gunmen think that killing their own family is for the greater good?

[/quote]

Well, Catalpa, we are back to the age-old dilemma of whether the end justifies the means.

This is a desperate situation and with men who have nothing to lose.  Some unusual and desperate action might indeed be called for.

And, Q, with respect, we haven't the faintest clue what the mullahs or indeed any of these desperados want, do we?

We can't read their minds, we can't understand them, we assume that we all share a common humanity and so we will have common feeling; of love, of respect for life, of compassion.  I know these 2 individuals have not shown the slightest trace of any of the above but it stands to reason that they MUST have some common characteristics with us unless they are completely deranged, of course.

It will play out in death and injury but I have some doubt that these are actually who the police think they are.  As has been pointed out, it seems strange that an identity card should be so conveniently found.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Who ever they are, I'm sure that we will see soon enough, whether it'll be their bodies that leave the factory, or them, alive.

What they want, well, they want to send us all back into the dark ages judging by the daesh, women's rights gone and everyone under the yoke of tyrannts that we probably have not seen the like of on this planet for a very long time.

There is no humanity involved in this, it is a power struggle.

What gets me is that I often read that 'we' cannot do XY and Z because we want to be better than 'them'. However, once extremism comes to call, then how far can 'we' go and still be better than them, rather a long way IMO ofcourse.  So often, justice just doesn't feel like it exists any more and maybe we are reaching the point where we have to defend ourselves in whatever way we can. And when I say 'we', I reckon sunni muslims and shia, who won't tow the line, are as much risk from the current terrorists as anyone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst you and your OH might be happy to shoot innocent women and children being used as human shields (could you really look them in the eye and pull the trigger, because if not then they are of no use), I doubt the average or even the elite French soldiers would have the stomach for it. They are professional soldiers and not trained as terrorists, able to put their emotions to one side and shoot bystanders. There is no doubt in my mind that these men know they will be caught and will not be taken alive if they can help it. They will instigate a shoot out, trying to take out as many other people as they can in the process. The role of the army will be to put them out of action and limit the damage they do.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

Watching the film of this terrible killing I (and Mrs 'Q') were wondering how they came up with these two. As far as we can see they had their heads covered in all the video's. We both appreciate they are 'known' but can't see the actual physical link unless of course the French security services were watching them in which case why did they let it happen. I also think the word terrorist is incorrect as far as these two are concerned. The normal 'mode' would have been to go in and simply blow themselves up along with everyone else or to shoot them all then blow themselves up. The martyrdom comes from dying in the act which does not seem to be the case. Another thing, if possible, the police need to take these two alive to deny them of any form of martyrdom and also for intelligence purposes.

I have been to visit the guy in our village with the B&B this morning. His wife went on a flight to Denmark last night (they are both Danish citizens) and he has boarded up his B&B and will be following her shortly. Certain villagers are walking around with a smug smile on their face this morning. So thats one less Muslim Le Penn needs to worry about.

[/quote] Well, I think even Inspector Clouseau would have considered the fact than one of them left his Identity Card in the first getaway car as worthy of consideration as a clue...l[/quote]

And the driver who handed himself in after which everyone in his class tweeted that they were with him in class at the time of the shooting (BBC News). An identity card left in a car does not mean the person was in it at the time. They may have been in the car before and dropped it then. Personally if it is them I think somebody f*cked up somewhere and there will be a lot of people trying to cover the a*ses which is why I suspect they will never make it to court. Don't forget the French police are not that clever, they still have not caught the person or persons who shot the British family in the Alps. Perhaps the problem with the French polce is that there is too many Inspector Clouseau's in it.

[/quote]

Quillan, you asked how they "came up" with these two. I explained. Just because you didn't catch that on the non stop rolling news, don't blame the police for following an obvious clue which has ultimately led them to the perpetrators!

I did, incidentally, choose my words carefully when I said "worthy of consideration as a clue" I am sure they did not blindly drop all other avenues of enquiry on the basis of the find, but no doubt pursued it as one of many. It panned out. That's often the way with these things. Apparently, they were said to have arrested seven people. One nutter gave himself up and "confessed" . How much more criticism would they have had if they'd just let him go or ignored him without first checking his story? Or if they'd said "well thanks for 'fess ing up, we will come and see you after we've checked if you're a time waster.

As is alway the case in all these horrible situations, armchair experts could all have done better. I am sure that Ahmed Merabet and his family would welcome your comments on police ineptitude.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="lindal1000"]Whilst you and your OH might be happy to shoot innocent women and children being used as human shields (could you really look them in the eye and pull the trigger, because if not then they are of no use), I doubt the average or even the elite French soldiers would have the stomach for it. They are professional soldiers and not trained as terrorists, able to put their emotions to one side and shoot bystanders. There is no doubt in my mind that these men know they will be caught and will not be taken alive if they can help it. They will instigate a shoot out, trying to take out as many other people as they can in the process. The role of the army will be to put them out of action and limit the damage they do.[/quote]

In pedant mode, I think that what was proposed was not to threaten to shoot the relative, but to use them as a human shield whilst the forces entered. If the relatives were shot, it would be by the murdering thugs, not by the gendarmes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Quillan"]

I have been to visit the guy in our village with the B&B this morning. His wife went on a flight to Denmark last night (they are both Danish citizens) and he has boarded up his B&B and will be following her shortly. Certain villagers are walking around with a smug smile on their face this morning. So thats one less Muslim Le Penn needs to worry about.[/quote]

I am so sad to read that, but maybe expected in small rural communities.

A French Basque from near Pau, who I worked with in the late 60's, told me there was a large influx of Algerians into his area after 1962.

He boasted that when an Algerian allegedly raped a Basque woman the word was put about that any Algerian left in the "Basque Country" in a week's time would be risking their life, and maintained that they all left before the deadline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Quillan"]

I have been to visit the guy in our village with the B&B this morning. His wife went on a flight to Denmark last night (they are both Danish citizens) and he has boarded up his B&B and will be following her shortly. Certain villagers are walking around with a smug smile on their face this morning. So thats one less Muslim Le Penn needs to worry about.[/quote]

I am so sad to read that, but maybe expected in small rural communities.

A French Basque from near Pau, who I worked with in the late 60's, told me there was a large influx of Algerians into his area after 1962.

He boasted that when an Algerian allegedly raped a Basque woman the word was put about that any Algerian left in the "Basque Country" in a week's time would be risking their life, and maintained that they all left before the deadline.

[/quote]

It would appear Le Penn is calling for the death penalty to be reinstated ..........perhaps if she gets into power and they give her the blade she will sharpen it for them .
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I'd actually say that CH is probably more like Private Eye with more than a dash of OZ thrown in, for those that can remember it above and beyond the infamous Schoolkids' Issue...[/quote]

Look, there is no comparison between Charlie Hebdo and Private Eye, believe me, that is a complete distraction. I gave up the Eye(after many years) when it became much too silly and published simply too many blasphemies, but I did not pick up my AK 74 and go down to Greek St looking for the smug, grinning Hislop.

What is the "Infamous Schoolkids" ? Don't like the sound of it ...

Offending people deliberately regardless of the consequences is quite different from offending accidentally, perhaps because someone does not agree with your own views. So often, when a strong viewpoint is expressed, rather than a vague, woolly and platitudinous general statement, one of the hate-speech condemnations is hurled out. This is seen on many TV programmes, for example when having to face unpleasant facts.

“Free speech” – what does it really mean ? Is it that liberal left wing ideas automatically trump right wing ideas (“nazis”) ? Who decides this and on what authority ?

I need to know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ernie"] 

“Free speech” – what does it really mean ? Is it that liberal left wing ideas automatically trump right wing ideas (“nazis”) ? Who decides this and on what authority ?

I need to know.[/quote]

I think the row of asterisks which magically appeared in your post begins to answer your question[:)]

Maybe you could have written "National Socialists"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ernie, please do not take my name in vain!

However, to get my oar in; these people are now beyond the appeals of humanity, probably yearning for heaven or hell, no doubt high on something or other. Nothing can be done to bring them in from the cold; reluctantly therefore, they and their ilk have to be put down, like rabid dogs. In this case, preferably by a lady with a gun, so that their last thought will be that heaven is not possible for them, so they will die in mental anguish.

There remains the wider issue as to how two young men got to this state- deprivation, lack of opportunity, overcrowding, overbreeding, bad education, discrimination, leading to mind bending by violence determined extremists. These issues are for the long term, not now, but will be very difficult to deal with.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="lindal1000"]Whilst you and your OH might be happy to shoot innocent women and children being used as human shields (could you really look them in the eye and pull the trigger, because if not then they are of no use), I doubt the average or even the elite French soldiers would have the stomach for it. They are professional soldiers and not trained as terrorists, able to put their emotions to one side and shoot bystanders. There is no doubt in my mind that these men know they will be caught and will not be taken alive if they can help it. They will instigate a shoot out, trying to take out as many other people as they can in the process. The role of the army will be to put them out of action and limit the damage they do.[/quote] You might well be correct, but do I detect a suppressed desire nascent in some posters here to have the guilty persons (not that I know who committed these atrocities) killed/executed on the spot by Army/Police/Gendarmes ? That would show a predilection for rough/mob/vigilante justice. Utterly wrong. I believe in the rule of law. Once you start on that downward path it is almost impossible to leave it I’d say. It would also be a vote in favour of capital punishment, a concept many millions of French people support. It’s their country. Marine le Pen (not Penn) has promised a referendum on capital punishment if elected President. The British voter does not have this opportunity, although the likelihood of the average British voter voting on anything anyway is about 30%. Of course, I can see this sort of talk immediately outs me (in some minds) as a raging fascist, far-right wing, foam and spittle-flecked raging Hitler-clone. I worry deeply about it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ernie"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]I'd actually say that CH is probably more like Private Eye with more than a dash of OZ thrown in, for those that can remember it above and beyond the infamous Schoolkids' Issue...[/quote] What is the "Infamous Schoolkids" ? Don't like the sound of it[/quote] I'm sure Google will enlighten you, Ernie. And the schoolkids weren't especially infamous, but that particular issue of the magazine most certainly was.....hence my use of the lower case "i" ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are now three separate incidents.

The initial attack, the killing of a policewoman in Montrouge and today hostage-taking in a Jewish grocery possibly by the same person.

This rather confirms my fears of a guerilla campaign and what I said earlier about the magazine being just a pretext for something else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ernie"][quote user="lindal1000"]Whilst you and your OH might be happy to shoot innocent women and children being used as human shields (could you really look them in the eye and pull the trigger, because if not then they are of no use), I doubt the average or even the elite French soldiers would have the stomach for it. They are professional soldiers and not trained as terrorists, able to put their emotions to one side and shoot bystanders. There is no doubt in my mind that these men know they will be caught and will not be taken alive if they can help it. They will instigate a shoot out, trying to take out as many other people as they can in the process. The role of the army will be to put them out of action and limit the damage they do.[/quote] You might well be correct, but do I detect a suppressed desire nascent in some posters here to have the guilty persons (not that I know who committed these atrocities) killed/executed on the spot by Army/Police/Gendarmes ? That would show a predilection for rough/mob/vigilante justice. Utterly wrong. I believe in the rule of law. Once you start on that downward path it is almost impossible to leave it I’d say. It would also be a vote in favour of capital punishment, a concept many millions of French people support. It’s their country. Marine le Pen (not Penn) has promised a referendum on capital punishment if elected President. The British voter does not have this opportunity, although the likelihood of the average British voter voting on anything anyway is about 30%. Of course, I can see this sort of talk immediately outs me (in some minds) as a raging fascist, far-right wing, foam and spittle-flecked raging Hitler-clone. I worry deeply about it.[/quote]

Spot on Ernie.

Regional paper today (Independent), shots fired at mosque down on the coast (Port-la-Nouvelle) and two grenades thrown through another mosque window (can't remember the name now). Also we are seeing other attacks it would seem in Paris. This all needs to stop and quickly before it gets out of control.

For these two alleged killers their behaviour is not something we have seen before.

Betty - your comment about armchair experts is spot on there are an awful lot of them around. We will only know IF they come out of this alive. Questions are also (according to BBC 2 World News) being asked of the French intelligence services as they knew apparently about a possible attack which is why they upgraded the single policeman outside the offices to two. Of course this may also be a rouse what with the left ID card and the real killers may be hundreds or thousands of miles away by now. Who knows?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ernie"]Firstly, I don't use Google as I don't like being followed. And from what and the way you write, I certainly do not want to know about that sort of thing[/quote]

It was something put together by school kids, for school kids and published by adults. Today it would not raise many eyebrows except perhaps in the WI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting a little closer to home now for me. My oldest, dearest friend lives just outside Vincennes, having moved out of Vincennes itself quite recently. Her large, extended Jewish family are mostly shopkeepers in Vincennes itself.

In a slightly ironic twist, they're Tunisian Jews.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Getting a little closer to home now for me. My oldest, dearest friend lives just outside Vincennes, having moved out of Vincennes itself quite recently. Her large, extended Jewish family are mostly shopkeepers in Vincennes itself. In a slightly ironic twist, they're Tunisian Jews.....[/quote]

You would be supprised where us Jews turn up and how many different colours we are as well. From white to jet black and anything in between.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="NormanH"]There are now three separate incidents.

The initial attack, the killing of a policewoman in Montrouge and today hostage-taking in a Jewish grocery possibly by the same person.

This rather confirms my fears of a guerilla campaign and what I said earlier about the magazine being just a pretext for something else.

[/quote]

You are correct Norman Things have now changed for ever...The shock and chaos that can be inflicted on a city and government by a handful of armed fanatics bent on murder to support their aims is being witnessed right now and was not unexpected

It will only get worse now these fanatics see how much damage they can cause with so little effort.

There will now have to "soft targets " identified and protected all over France .

The Jewish community will demand their food outlets to be protected and places of worship along with newspapers offices Radio and TV Stations... anywhere that employees fear that they could be singled out .the list will be endless .

Police officers now knowing they are targets when on the street may quit when pressure from wives demands they put them and their kids first.

The cost is going to be huge not only in money needed but also to the disruption caused to peoples lives ... The anger from the population that is being triggered today may well result in a lot more support for political parties that will be expected to "lean " on the Muslim community..... Lets hope they have the will to act and clean out those among them that will bring the whirlwind down on their communities before it gets out of hand with people on the streets planning to do more than just march !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...