DSK, can we believe this?

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"]There needs to be more public awareness, and better reporting procedures, especially in the workplace where - even now - the majority of bosses is male.  I do think that attitudes are changing,

the tacit acceptance of "flirtatious" men

discussing this now (not just on here but all over France), that can only be a good thing.  [/quote]

I hope you'll agree with me that all men are not predatory, and certainly flirtatious men are not a problem (any more than flirtatious women)
in fact in my book both add something to joie de vivre, so there is a need not to sanitise behaviour, gawd knows there is already too much PC;
However, there is a line that needs to be drawn and this can only be done by women making it clear where that is and reporting undesirable incidents;
only this can modify and change ferral men and bring acceptable behaviour norms to society, imho.

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Frenchie"]

Interesting post again, Coops, I wonder if pornography doesn't have a responsibility in that .

In those films, women say " NO", then, they seem to be happy with what forcibly happens.

[/quote]

You seem to know a bit about pornography Frenchie, certainly more than me, I thought all you Catholic girls were good girls.[:$]  [;-)]

[/quote]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am no expert at all, just that I work in a school in which we have 15 to 22 year old students ( 1200 of them...... ) So, as you can imagine I guess, we take them to conferences about all sorts of topics including " vie sexuelle et affective" ; and what I wrote is what the experts say about it .

Moreover, the famous psychiatrist Marcelli ( hôpital de Poitiers, but known all over France ) , came for a conference at the start of the year, this time only for us , teachers , and he talked about that. He said pornography on the internet is a very big problem for relationships between teenagers.

 

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Frenchie"]Very clear to me : An affair, both want it !

A predatory behaviour: one of the persons ( man or woman) does not want it, is forced into it .[/quote]

OK then! We agree on this point at least! [:)]

Next, let's see if we can find common ground on another point...

By several accounts, DSK is said to have pressured women to engage in sexual behaviour they did not want.

There

is what DSK's wife called a one-night stand, with his IMF subordinate

(Piroska Nagy said that without question he had used his position to

pursued her, until she felt damned if she did, damned if she didn't).

There

is the alleged assault (I have to say alleged) described by his

daughter's friend Tristane Banon (she said she was forced to fight him

off, she had to kick him).

There is the account of the Socialist

politician Auriele Filipetti, who said she was groped and vowed to never

find herself alone in a room with him.

So Frenchie, I ask: in your opinion, is this the behaviour of a dragueur, or is it the behaviour of a sexual predator?

Edit:

what Anne Sinclair called a one-night-stand was described by the woman

in question as an affair she felt coerced into by a superior. DSK was

cleared of having abused his position.

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Quillan"]

 The fact that a politician has an affair whilst still married (obviously) means he/she is being deceitful to their wife/husband. If they can do this then what else are they capable of plus it sort of gives them a green light because nobody will ever know least of all those who believed in him/her and voted them in to office, quite frankly it's an insult to them. This is why these people should be exempt from this law, they have to be whiter than white and the fact they could be 'outed' should they have an affair may well deter them.

[/quote]

I disagree with that, but I guess this is where the gap is . 

Would you stop seeing friends if you learnt they happen to have affairs?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="cooperlola"]There needs to be more public awareness, and better reporting procedures, especially in the workplace where - even now - the majority of bosses is male.  I do think that attitudes are changing,

the tacit acceptance of "flirtatious" men

discussing this now (not just on here but all over France), that can only be a good thing.  [/quote]

I hope you'll agree with me that all men are not predatory, and certainly flirtatious men are not a problem (any more than flirtatious women)
in fact in my book both add something to joie de vivre, so there is a need not to sanitise behaviour, gawd knows there is already too much PC;
However, there is a line that needs to be drawn and this can only be done by women making it clear where that is and reporting undesirable incidents;
only this can modify and change ferral men and bring acceptable behaviour norms to society, imho.

[/quote]Of course not all men are predatory. 

I used the word "flirtatious" in inverted commas for a reason, as was appropriate to the subject of this thread.  My point being that some commentators describe DSK's behaviour in this way when, to me  it sounds more sinister and predatory than that.  No, of course when two people flirt with each other there's no harm in that.  There's no harm in one person flirting PROVIDED that they stop the moment it's obvious that it's unwelcome because that's the first sign that the line has been crossed,or should be.  I'm sure that all those men who have contributed to this thread know where the line is, but I have also encountered many who do not.  The statistics I've been looking at for several countries, suggest that one in four women has been assaulted in some way in her lifetime.  I don't believe that none of those women didn't make it abundantly clear to the men in question that their atttentions were unwelcome.  The problem is not just in the lack of reporting of these horrible crimes, they are NEVER the fault of the victim but always the fault of the perpetrator.  When a woman says no, then it's up to the man to believe her.

No such thing as too much PC to me, if by that you mean speaking, behaving and communicating in a way which does not cause offence to others - I have never seen what is wrong with that and I never will.

[Christine Animal]

Those who have (consenting) affairs are perhaps healthier than those who don't (or don't dare), yet revel in the scandal about those who do.

Just a thought.   [:D]

 

[Frenchie]

True .

Reminds me of that famous book by Nathaniel Hawthorne " The scarlet letter " ...........

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Those who have (consenting) affairs are perhaps healthier than those who don't (or don't dare), yet revel in the scandal about those who do.

Just a thought.   [:D]

 

[/quote]Idun started a thread about this a while ago.  As I said then, I'd rather have an honest partner than a dishonest one.   Given the number of married men who've come on to me over the years, I think there are probably quite a few of the latter since so few people seem to own up to such things (well, in Britain at least.)  But that's a long, long, way from condoning predatory behaviour in a partner.  I couldn't stay married to a man whom I knew (or even strongly suspected) had forced a woman into anything she didn't want.  In fact, I'd even help her get him locked up.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Quillan"]

 The fact that a politician has an affair whilst still married (obviously) means he/she is being deceitful to their wife/husband. If they can do this then what else are they capable of plus it sort of gives them a green light because nobody will ever know least of all those who believed in him/her and voted them in to office, quite frankly it's an insult to them. This is why these people should be exempt from this law, they have to be whiter than white and the fact they could be 'outed' should they have an affair may well deter them.

[/quote]

I disagree with that, but I guess this is where the gap is . 

Would you stop seeing friends if you learnt they happen to have affairs?

[/quote]

OK then put it another way how would you feel if your husband/partner had an affair for lets say a year and you never knew, would you consider he had cheated on you and had been deceitful with you? Would you still be able to trust him?

Sorry I forgot to answer your question. Yes I would because like in most cases I would know how long it had been going on and they say the partner is always the last to know. I wouldn't want to become involved because at some stage the partner will ask you why you never said anything. Personally I disapprove of people having affairs, if you want to lead that life don't get married, don't commit to another person, it's not right, it's not fair and it's not moral behavior.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Quillan"]

 The fact that a politician has an affair whilst still married (obviously) means he/she is being deceitful to their wife/husband. If they can do this then what else are they capable of plus it sort of gives them a green light because nobody will ever know least of all those who believed in him/her and voted them in to office, quite frankly it's an insult to them. This is why these people should be exempt from this law, they have to be whiter than white and the fact they could be 'outed' should they have an affair may well deter them.

[/quote]

I disagree with that, but I guess this is where the gap is . 

Would you stop seeing friends if you learnt they happen to have affairs?

[/quote]

OK then put it another way how would you feel if your husband/partner had an affair for lets say a year and you never knew, would you consider he had cheated on you and had been deceitful with you? Would you still be able to trust him?

Sorry I forgot to answer your question. Yes I would because like in most cases I would know how long it had been going on and they say the partner is always the last to know. I wouldn't want to become involved because at some stage the partner will ask you why you never said anything. Personally I disapprove of people having affairs, if you want to lead that life don't get married, don't commit to another person, it's not right, it's not fair and it's not moral behavior.

[/quote]Whilst I'm not altogether in sync with Frenchie's stance on the DSK matter, I do think you keep moving the goalposts here Quillan.  We're talking about affairs here (open ones), not deceit.  Nobody was condoning lying long-term to your spouse.  On that, perhaps (or perhaps not?) I think we probably have common some ground?

[Russethouse]

My experience of people I know or knew  has been that most affairs are not 'open' and that quite a lot of deceit is common.

[NickP]

Quillan wrote: Yes I would because like in most cases I would know how long it had been going on and they say the partner is always the last to know. I wouldn't want to become involved because at some stage the partner will ask you why you never said anything.

So Q,  when the other persons partner says "why don't you visit or socialise with us anymore", what do you tell them then?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Russethouse"]My experience of people I know or knew  has been that most affairs are not 'open' and that quite a lot of deceit is common.[/quote]Yes, I believe that to be so, especially in the UK. As I've said, I know plenty of people who've had affairs or are having them, and who lie on a regular basis to their spouces.  Personally, I think that stinks, and I'm not sure I could do it myself (I'm a lousy lier).

 However, one of the defences put forward for DSK has been that his wife knew of his affairs and was happy with them (I assume she's had a few of her own) and that it was accepted within the circles within which they move.  I think - and I am trying not to speak for anybody else here but just get straight what I think everybody means here - that that is where the dividing line between Frenchie and Quillan falls.  I'm not sure that Frenchie has condoned either sexual assault or deceit amongst married couples, just open, casual affairs.  That was my point.

[Jazzer]

I read the following article last week regarding the differing attitudes of the Ango-Saxon and French perspectives.

www.thefirstpost.co.uk/79090,news-comments,news-politics,dominique-strauss-kahn-and-the-very-french-crime-of-vulgarity

I need to re-read Madame Bovary and Little Dorrit.

[Quillan]

The thing is Frenchie gave me the opinion that she felt it OK for politicians to have affairs and them being protected from anyone knowing because of French law.

I on the other hand am saying that this is not right because irregardless of if the affair is open (in their minds) or not it won't be published nor talked about so the public would never know anyway. These people run the country, the public have the right to know, as others in this thread have also stated. Having an affair and using the law to keep it secret if you are a politician is no different, in that it stops the press reporting it, than super injunctions for cheating footballers (and others).

When people have affairs there is a certain amount of lying, cheating and general deception. If the politicians can practice these things on their partner then they can practice these things on others and the public. How can you have a person that knowingly lies, cheats and is deceitful in politics. Oh sh*t I have put my foot in it haven't I because just about every politician in the world fits that bill [:'(]. Whats the saying, "how can you tell when a politician lies, their lips move".

I am trying to understand this cultural difference but I find it very difficult. I cannot get my head round this naive belief that what politicians do in their private life has absolutely no effect on what they do in their public life. It's like Frenchies example of pornography, if you follow the logic then watching pornography should not effect what you do in public because you watch porno in private. We know this not to be true, that it does overlap in to peoples public life because it's in their nature and whilst we are talking about two totally different things the starting place, what goes on in private and the finishing place, what they may do in public are the same because basically they can't help themselves.

If I could I wouldn't vote for DSK now all this has come out even if I supported his party because I don't trust him and I think, from what I have read, he is immoral.

[Patf]

Immoral and amoral.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]

Quillan wrote: Yes I would because like in most cases I would know how long it had been going on and they say the partner is always the last to know. I wouldn't want to become involved because at some stage the partner will ask you why you never said anything.

So Q,  when the other persons partner says "why don't you visit or socialise with us anymore", what do you tell them then?

[/quote]

If I know for sure, like seen it with my own eyes or the guy tells me rather than just gossip I would tell them. After all I won't be mixing with them anymore and it's better to tell the truth than lie. And yes I have unfortunatly had to do that once many years ago.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Patf"]Immoral and amoral.
[/quote]

Opps, yes, sorry.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Quillan"]

When people have affairs there is a certain amount of lying, cheating and general deception. You are assuming facts not in evidence.

 

If I could I wouldn't vote for DSK now all this has come out even if I supported his party because I don't trust him and I think, from what I have read, he is immoral.  Me too, but not because he had affairs which his wife knew about, but because he appears from various reports - even before the offence for which he has been indicted - to have forced women (either by physical force or extortion) into sexual acts against their wills.   If this is the case then he is unfit for public office.

[/quote]

[Quillan]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Quillan"]

When people have affairs there is a certain amount of lying, cheating and general deception. You are assuming facts not in evidence.

 

If I could I wouldn't vote for DSK now all this has come out even if I supported his party because I don't trust him and I think, from what I have read, he is immoral.  Me too, but not because he had affairs which his wife knew about, but because he appears from various reports - even before the offence for which he has been indicted - to have forced women (either by physical force or extortion) into sexual acts against their wills.   If this is the case then he is unfit for public office.

[/quote][/quote]

Come on Coops you said yourself

"Yes, I believe that to be so, especially in the UK. As I've said, I know plenty of people who've had affairs or are having them, and who lie on a regular basis to their spouces. Personally, I think that stinks, and I'm not sure I could do it myself (I'm a lousy lier)."

and I am talking in general not specific terms which fits in with what you and RH are saying.

As far as DSK's wife goes all I have seen is comments like "it has been said she knows about his affairs" etc, has there been a direct quote from her on this matter and did I miss it?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Quillan"]

When people have affairs there is a certain amount of lying, cheating and general deception. You are assuming facts not in evidence.

 

If I could I wouldn't vote for DSK now all this has come out even if I supported his party because I don't trust him and I think, from what I have read, he is immoral.  Me too, but not because he had affairs which his wife knew about, but because he appears from various reports - even before the offence for which he has been indicted - to have forced women (either by physical force or extortion) into sexual acts against their wills.   If this is the case then he is unfit for public office.

[/quote][/quote]

Come on Coops you said yourself

"Yes, I believe that to be so, especially in the UK. As I've said, I know plenty of people who've had affairs or are having them, and who lie on a regular basis to their spouces. Personally, I think that stinks, and I'm not sure I could do it myself (I'm a lousy lier)."

and I am talking in general not specific terms which fits in with what you and RH are saying.

As far as DSK's wife goes all I have seen is comments like "it has been said she knows about his affairs" etc, has there been a direct quote from her on this matter and did I miss it?

[/quote]I have had affairs - not many, though.  All parties involved, including my o/h and the other people's o/h's (when they had one) knew the score.  That's what I mean.  It is perfectly possible to have sex outside a marriage without any deceit involved.

Goodness, Q, I have read so much about this that I'll have to go back through a lot of reports but I have read in several places - UK, US and French media - that Mrs DSK knew about and accepted his libertine behaviour and indeed said somthing to the effect that policians should be capable of seduction.

[pachapapa]

All very interesting to hear the respective female and male views and prejudices but at the end of the day this is not relevant to the DSK situation.

Regardless of how many times in the past  DSK has shagged,etc,etc; each case is independent for each jurisdiction.

The result of DSK's Manhattan Frolics will depend on the elements of the offence of common law rape in the the court in New York.

http://rape.uslegal.com/common-law-or-forcible-rape/elements/

Blow-jobs and anal intercourse are included in New York.

http://rape.uslegal.com/common-law-or-forcible-rape/

[Russethouse]

All very interesting to hear the respective female and male views and prejudices but at the end of the day this is not relevant to the DSK situation.

I disagree PPP, the event in New York has been a catalyst which has shown DSK in a very poor light.

Even if found innocent of all charges, his reputation is tainted to such an extent that I'd suggest he is not electible.

I think that is relevent, though maybe not to the case itself.

As for affairs, if I knew a politician commonly had affairs I'm afraid I would think less of him, because it shows something of an ongoing lack commitment, or the will to put right what is wrong in the marriage. Of course these things happen, but if it keeps happening that would be a red flag for me, as is the way Chris Huhne treated his wife.......

People who become MPs know their lives will be in the public eye and its up to them to act accordingly.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

All very interesting to hear the respective female and male views and prejudices but at the end of the day this is not relevant to the DSK situation.

[/quote]Thread drift, Pacha.  Now there's a thing.

 

To my mind the one positive outcome in this is that these things are being discussed openly and if women feel empowered now to stand up against true abuse (as opposed to unfaithful partners) as a result then something good has come of it.  I think all these side issues are apposite as a result.

[Christine Animal]

"How can you have a person that knowingly lies, cheats and is deceitful in politics.  Oh sh*t I have put my foot in it haven't I because just about every politician in the world fits that bill. Whats the saying, "how can you tell when a politician lies, their lips move"."

Oh Quillan, you have just made me have a good laugh.  Let's just not vote for any of them!