DSK, can we believe this?

[pachapapa]

I admonish myself and stand corrected.

Plenty of time though. A whole week to wait until Dominique-the-Lad stands in the dock again.

Well! Spothead! Spelling![:P]

[cooperlola]

It's also the longest discussion on matters French that I can remember for ages.  I, for one, have found the discussions on cultural differences (real or supposed) quite fascinating.

As you say, Pacha, we have a week or so before there's any more real "news" on this subject (unless somebody files for divorce in the meantime, of course.[Www])

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"]  No such thing as too much PC to me, if by that you mean speaking, behaving and communicating in a way which does not cause offence to others - I have never seen what is wrong with that and I never will.[/quote]

Well I do think there is too much PC, this week we hear about families attempting to bring up children to be non gender specific in one extreme. The sexes are at the core of this and human nature is what it is, in normal /work, social banter there is an acceptable dividing line which most normal people respect, even when pushing boundaries a degree of respect usually remains; if this is exceeded then it is up to the party to make that clear, but even what is acceptable to most may not be to a few, so whilst it may cause offence to some, for instance whether an affair is discussed publicly or not (eg.Giggsy), well I would say that once in the open it should be discussed; as on here in this discussion which is the background to the degree of licence some will take (especially when alone) and needs to be discussed out in the open and not swept under any carpets.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

"How can you have a person that knowingly lies, cheats and is deceitful in politics.  Oh sh*t I have put my foot in it haven't I because just about every politician in the world fits that bill. Whats the saying, "how can you tell when a politician lies, their lips move"."

Oh Quillan, you have just made me have a good laugh.  Let's just not vote for any of them!

[/quote]

Your probably right there. I know it's off subject but the way they (politicians, internationally) behave is really quite bad. Apparently the new expenses system for for MP's in the UK was found, by the MP's themselves, to be unworkable so they have quietly slipped back to the old, pre scandal, system not than many noticed. That's what I mean about deceitful and down right sneaky. Not to mention that some of those that got caught are now out after only six months in jail. In the book 60m Frenchmen Can't be wrong I seem to remember that it was a well known fact (?) that members of the French government used to get brown envelopes once a month stuffed with money to keep the 'on side'. How true that is I do not know. The we have the current situation with FIFA which does not involve politics but the guys involved are quite rich and powerful. Can anyone in position be trusted these days?

Anyway back to the thread.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="cooperlola"]  No such thing as too much PC to me, if by that you mean speaking, behaving and communicating in a way which does not cause offence to others - I have never seen what is wrong with that and I never will.[/quote]

Well I do think there is too much PC, this week we hear about families attempting to bring up children to be non gender specific in one extreme. The sexes are at the core of this and human nature is what it is, in normal /work, social banter there is an acceptable dividing line which most normal people respect, even when pushing boundaries a degree of respect usually remains; if this is exceeded then it is up to the party to make that clear, but even what is acceptable to most may not be to a few, so whilst it may cause offence to some, for instance whether an affair is discussed publicly or not (eg.Giggsy), well I would say that once in the open it should be discussed; as on here in this discussion which is the background to the degree of licence some will take (especially when alone) and needs to be discussed out in the open and not swept under any carpets.

[/quote]I do object to the hi-jacking of the - to my mind - perfectly acceptable attempt to use non-specific terms and be careful with the use of language in order not to cause offence (as an example, an American poster objected to the term Y*** the other day because it was insulting to them.  I didn't realise this before but now I know, I will not use it again) to cover these ludicrous examples of extreme behaviour such as the one you quote.

I absolutely agree that we need to discuss all these issues.  The more we do, the easier it will be for victims to come forward. 

Super injunctions for people I've never even heard of let alone care about (at least now I realise he's a guy who chases a ball about) - well - give me strength!

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"]   as an example, an American poster objected to the term Y*** the other day because it was insulting to them. [/quote]

Absurd, Nothing insulting about Yank, the name of the Army magazine during the 2nd worldwar, or Yankees the name of a proudly american football team, and the term of endearment[:P] used by the British troops during the 2nd world war. That's like saying because the Limeys were stupid enough to get mixed up with American sub-prime mortgages that Limeys is insulting, Gawd struth save me!

 

[quote user="cooperlola"] Super injunctions for people I've never even heard of let alone care about (at least now I realise he's a guy who chases a ball about) - well - give me strength! [/quote]

This guy and his lawyers prevented a woman involved in a clandestine affair with him from defending herself and telling her side of the story, just so that he could continue in affairs while married and 'protecting his family' sounds familiar don't you think . . .well - give me strength![;-)]

[cooperlola]

Isn't the word "Limey" generally used in a derogatory fashion?  I never take it as a compliment, do you?  Are you happy when the French press refer to you as "Anglo Saxon"?  Because I'm not.

I know nothing about this Brian Giggs bloke nor his story, nor am I interested in whom he shags.  I'm just amazed that anybody else cares either. Politicians are one thing because they are ultimately law makers so I object to the morally corrupt being able to tell me what to do or have any influence on it.  "Sport"s people, on the other hand?  Pah. 

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Isn't the word "Limey" generally used in a derogatory fashion?  I never take it as a compliment, do you?  Are you happy when the French press refer to you as "Anglo Saxon"?  Because I'm not.

I know nothing about this Brian Giggs bloke nor his story, nor am I interested in whom he shags.  I'm just amazed that anybody else cares either. Politicians are one thing because they are ultimately law makers so I object to the morally corrupt being able to tell me what to do or have any influence on it.  "Sport"s people, on the other hand?  Pah.  [/quote]

I think as it stands Limey can be used in many different ways, it's origin is reasonable enough, as far as Anglo Saxon goes the same, it's reasonably accurate and does at least define a difference in culture that everyone understands, and I choose not to take offence at the words used as opposed to the sentiment.

My interest in Giggsy was the same as this case, (especially not the tribal remnant of men competing with a pigs bladder) and the thread running through this post, that no man should be able to prevent a woman from speaking out about an injustice, especially not to save his face at the expense of hers, or at the very least the unhindered truth.

[idun]

This is now driving me mad. I am sick of pussyfooting around with what terms to use and how to use them.

I have heard enough from DSK's friends to believe that in certain circles in France there is a complete disrespect for what I assume are considered the 'lower orders' who are there for the taking even if a certain amount of pressure is needed and such behaviour  is completely acceptable.

I realise that DSK will have had affairs with more than willing partners. But from what else has come out, I personally feel  that he would, with no consideration whatsoever  have coerced other women into his bed. How degrading that must have felt to have been a victim in such circumstances, with the seigneur and friends being powerful enough to dismiss any plainte.

 

That list keeps haunting me, it really does. If he had wanted what I will call a quickie for want of finding a better word or description that will suit then I may have looked at this quite differently.

AND then there is that list and as far as I am aware this maid was not a call girl, but just a maid. Frankly I cannot see such a hotel group wanting their cleaning staff to act as part time call girls at all, although I am sure that all clients could be catered for by 'professionals', concierges know who does what.

I keep thinking about what could have happened. He will have seen a young black woman in his room. Then something will have been said, and I would imagine, bearing in mind her background would have an african accent, whether they spoke in french or english. I really believe that he will have thought her an illegal and no matter what happened next, whether she was propositioned or attacked, that she would be so frightened of being deported that she would say nothing.

The other thing that I has struck me is the man's age and his actual sexual prowess. All this passed in less than half an hour. And I know that they say 'use it or lose it' and he certainly uses it. But, they really found ejaculate on the maid's collar? Would such circumstances be a stimulant? He certainly managed to fulfill himself quickly, in spite or perhaps because of the altercation, scratching etc?

[idun]

EN FIN  very very slowly elle réveille. On the news, women talking about how french men treat them and talk to them, the first salvos in what I hope is the movement towards 'respect'.

 

[Frenchie]

The only man who treated me bad was English.

And yet, I hate generalizations .

[woolybanana]

really, Frenchie, I thought.........?[:D]

[5-element]

You are so right Idun. Tonight Roselyne Bachelot (known for her outspoken views) spoke very eloquently about the way women fare with their male colleagues in political circles. Hopefully, many will follow her example, regardless of  political affiliation.

[idun]

5E I do hope so, and that this is the start of something 'new', a little progress each day.

Frenchie, there are some terrible men in Britain. My good friend is somewhat of an expert at picking them!

[Catalpa]

There are "terrible men" in any country, culture, social level... of course there are. But that's not the point. I think what this debate is about is the acknowledged "right" of anyone - male or female - to protect themselves from those in a position of power or control over them without risking their wellbeing (personal, career, social standing etc) because their society doesn't treat them equally.

[5-element]

"Des femmes dénoncent le machisme politique" yesterday evening, with Roselyne Bachelot and others:

http://www.2424actu.fr/actualite-politique/scandales-sexuels-les-hommes-politiques-francais-accuses-de-machisme-2624438+2625539/#read-2625539

[Quillan]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

The only man who treated me bad was English.

And yet, I hate generalizations .

[/quote]

So far in France I have seen three men hit their partners in public. I have been there on two occasions when two different men have told their partners to 'be quiet I am speaking' and guess what, their partners went obeyed. I tried that with Mrs Q which is how I discovered hospital food in France is no better than the UK.

There are good and bad in every country, there are some pretty nasty women as well around and then there is colour as well. Unfortunately the English do not have the monopoly on on bad men. Mind you according to an EU pole they do make the greatest lovers funny enough.

[EmilyA]

Well Just John, you will have to explain Anglo-Saxon to me, because I haven't a clue what it means. I know about the use of WASP in America, but I cannot see that being white and protestant has anything to do with the way the term is used (at least I hope not). Nor can I see what the attitudes and values of fourth century invaders have to do with what we are discussing here. So please, exactly what does it mean?

[Alex H]

[quote user="EmilyA"] you will have to explain Anglo-Saxon to me, because I haven't a clue what it means. So please, exactly what does it mean?[/quote]

'English-speaking; British or American'

[Alex H]

[quote user="EmilyA"] you will have to explain Anglo-Saxon to me, because I haven't a clue what it means. So please, exactly what does it mean?[/quote]

'English-speaking; British or American'

Source http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Anglo-Saxon

[EmilyA]

Fine, so let's say English speaking. Then we all know what we mean and there is no sense of a term which sits very uncomfortably with the citizens of multi-cultural Britain and Obama's America. It is interesting though, because my impression is that when people say "Anglo-Saxon values" they mean something different from "the values of people who speak English".

[just john]

I was thinking of the origin of the 'Anglo-Saxons' in the creation of the English nation, after the invading Germanic tribes through to the Norman conquest; Bede identified them as descendants of three Germanic tribes: The Angles, who may have come from Angeln in modern Germany, The Saxons, and the Jutes, from modern Denmark; the language, Old English, transformed into Middle English from the 11th century.

In the context used here I take to mean the difference in mindset of the English (and a few that made it to the US perhaps) as opposed to the mindset in France. I have no problem with that in the current discussion.

 

[EmilyA]

Yes I knew who they were - I have even read their chronicles and very boring it was too!

I do have a problem with the term in the current discussion (in its widest sense) because I think when the French media use Anglo-Saxon, there is a strong implication of white, protestant and narrow-minded. If you read down Alex's dictionary you arrive very quickly at a definition which includes the first two of those.

People may still wonder why I think this is important. I think much of this thread and the wider debate is about linguistic and cultural perception. When does flirtation become harassment? When does seduction become coercion?

I am not an Anglo-Saxon, nor are you, nor is anyone alive today. If you look at people in power in politics, business, the media, they are not Anglo-Saxon either.

For me, it is at best meaningless and at worst verging on the offensive.

[woolybanana]

Well, this is definitely not sexist or disrespectful or an outrage to public decency. I can't see it appearing in France though, even if the nation drooled over Ms Dati before she did the dirty!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8546961/Sexy-MPs-website-ranks-most-attractive-politicians.html

[pachapapa]

Emily, I like Alex's dictionary for it's multiplicity of meaning; effectively making it impossible to pin it down.

The Normans were not french in one sense of the word but nordic..check out Rollo in google.

The idea that the french escaped "anglo-saxon" pollution is not true as a look at Clovis in google will reveal.

The very name french comes from the franks who withstood the might of the Roman Legions on the banks of the Rhine.

Oh and not forgetting their cousins, also germanic, the infamous visgoths who bought the holy grail to rennes-les-bains.

However in this thread I use the word "anglo-saxon" as imbued in the present day french psyche and in particular to ironise over  the typically parigot,bobo mindset with an almost pathological fear of cultural invasion to the detriment of the true path set out by François.

In an earlier post I referred to one of Winston's books as much of the content would be anathema to gallic intellectuals.[6]

P.S. Did you watch mots-croisés on France  2 last night? If not available on pluzz.fr.

http://www.programme.tv/mots-croises-3554332.php