Remembrance day wreaths

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Cendrillon"]
"On 11th November the French are only commemorating those who fought in the first world war, other wars are remembered on other dates 8 May for the second world war and 19 March for the war in Algeria.
[/quote]

Not true in our village.  We commemorated those who fell in both world wars, the algerian war and one other war (which has temporarily slipped my mind).  All the names of the villagers who fell in all these conflicts were read out.

The other two dates are also still commemorated here.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="buelligan"]It seems wrong to nit-pick today of all days but all the same, I would like to know; were there significant French casualties caused by the British in either of the World Wars? [/quote]

I have no idea buelligan, perhaps there may have been British casualties caused by French action as well. It was a very crazy war.

There were also massive Australian and New Zealand casualties, along with

French, British and Canadian troops as a result of British negligence

(was it another Hague cock up?) at Gallipoli. It's one of the most

tragic things in war.

In the second world war, there were also instances of American B17's

accidentally dropping bombs on one another. I think in the latest gulf

war, the Americans again messed up and hit their own by mistake.

At the end of the day, they were all on the same side and trying to pull together. I sincerely doubt that any French killed by direct action by the

British was intentional. I would imagine, the first world war most

certainly from what little I have seen and read, to be one of the most

mad, confusing and horrible wars to have been involved in. Mistakes,

inexperience, miscalculations, complete errors of judgement, madness

etc would have been rife in both wars.

As Blackadder said in the very final scene of Blackadder goes Forth:

"Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was

better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean,

who would have noticed another madman round here?"

That final scene always gets me.

[Scooby]

[quote user="Cendrillon"]

We were discussing once whether Britain had a holiday on Armistice day and I still remember one very good Fr friend saying to me that the English

were not in the first world war so perhaps that was why we didn't have a holiday !!!

[/quote]

I am horrified that she didn't know that.  It is terribly sad given the immense sacrifices that were made by those English soldiers who died alongside the French.  It was a horrible, horrible war.

http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

[buelligan]

Richard wrote;[quote]

As Blackadder said in the very final scene of Blackadder goes Forth:

"Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?"

That final scene always gets me.
[/quote]

Oh! and me too Richard!  I've read quite a lot about the First World War and was surprised by the comment about French upset with the British.  Thought perhaps there was something particular that I wasn't aware of.  I am still curious, if anyone knows of anything I would be most interested to learn about it.

[Scooby]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_French_women_and_children_were_killed_as_%27collateral_damage%27_in_the_invasion_of_Normandy

I would add that my Uncle Francis was an RAF bomber pilot and he had nightmares to his dying day about the bombing raids he carried out.  When he reached his eighties and developed alzheimers the nightmares became more vivid (as he relapsed back his earlier life).  My Auntie Pat became so distressed she didn't know what to do to help him.  War and its effects last for a long, long time,

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Isn't war crap?

[NickP]

[quote user="buelligan"]It seems wrong to nit-pick today of all days but all the same, I would like to know; were there significant French casualties caused by the British in either of the World Wars? [/quote]

The following is courtesy of Wikipedia

The Attack on Mers-el-Kébir, part of Operation Catapult and also known as the Battle of Mers-el-Kébir, was an engagement off the coast of French Algeria  on 3 July 1940. A British Royal Navy task force attacked and destroyed much of the French fleet, killing 1,297. France and Britain were not at war, but France had signed an armistice with Germany, and Britain did not want the French fleet to end up as a part of the German Navy, which it feared the German-French armistice would allow. Although the French Admiral Darlan had given Winston Churchill assurances that the fleet would not fall into German hands, the British acted upon the assumption that Darlan's promises were insufficient guarantees. The attack demonstrated to the world, and to the United States in particular, Britain's determination to continue the war with Germany.

^{My wife and myself have attended the remembrance day services in France for the last five years and always wear our poppy's, these  always trigger questions from local people, who seem genuinely pleased that we participate.}

[Scooby]

[quote user="Richard"]Isn't war crap?

[/quote]

Totally and utterly crap, Richard.  There are no winners just varying degrees of losers.

[Russethouse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord#Allies

[buelligan]

Thanks for taking the time to dig that information out Scooby, Nick and RH!  It made me really question myself (as I did know about the destruction of Caen and the surrounding area and the sinking of the French Fleet).  I was horrified to realise that I had conveniently "forgotten" or discounted those sad facts.   How shameful! 

War is indeed a terrible, terrible thing.  I pray to all that's good and reasonable that humanity can find a way of doing without it soon.

[DerekJ]

[quote user="Cendrillon"]

.

We were discussing once whether Britain had a holiday on Armistice day and I still remember one very good Fr friend saying to me that the English

were not in the first world war so perhaps that was why we didn't have a holiday !!! She apologised and said that history was not her

strong point. Where would they have been without the British and Commonwealth troops?

[/quote]

Certainly a slight "oversight" on her part.

eg. The battle of the Somme - July to November 1916.... around 420,000 British and Commonwealth casualties! 20,000 on the first day!

Yes, I think you could say we were in it.

[cooperlola]

I have been friendly with a family in Le Havre for years and stayed with them when I was quite young.  One of the kids used to say to me on a regular basis that "you" bombed "our" city - as if a ten year old girl could be in any way responsible for the history of her country!  People's attitudes to acts in history do differ and I guess there could be resentment amongst a (hopefully) small minority if a Brit partook in French rememberance  day observaces, but I can't see why that should prevent anybody from paying their respects to the dead in whatever way they see fit.

I was reminded of the bombing of the French fleet in the excellent "Into the Storm" which was shown on TV recently (Brendon Gleeson superb as Churchill.)  Tough decisions have to be taken when dealing with such irrational maniacs as Hitler - difficult to justify the killings he was responsible for.

Between a small town near us and our little commune is a memorial to an American soldier - the only one killed in this area during the liberation.  The local wisdom says that his death was the result of "friendly" fire.  Plus ca change...

[JohnM]

Sorry if somebody else has already said this, but this is my first look at this thread and my "need" to respond is too strong to wait to the end.

WW2 most certainly is a Key Stage 2 subject (most of my income comes from visiting Schools to talk about it).

EDIT.

This was in response to "This year there were 5 poppies for 6 English families, not bad, and a start, but what can you do when the history of the world wars is not part of the syllabus now?"

but is has occurred to me that that may be refering to France and I was thinking of England..... so I might now look very stupid! :-) Ton Pis.

[sueyh]

Going back to my original thread, it was actually our Maire who suggested taking the french floral tribute to our local Commonwealth War Grave (80 headstones many of whom died within two months of Armistice) and we therefore felt that it would be out of respect to honour their Monument des Morts in the same way, but with the traditional British Legion poppy wreath.

Suey

[Cendrillon]

Quite right too,  sueyh

[spectateur]

I do believe that there were many French civilians killed in June/July 1944.

 In support of the Battle of Normandy, allied air forces heavily bombed French cities such as Caen, Le Havre, Lorient, Rouen, Rennes.

Many small towns and villages were also, in modern terminology, "taken out"  with considerable " collateral damage".

Edit: This point has already been adequately covered. I missed a page when I was scrolling through the thread.

[plod]

We had a letter inviting us to the "celebrations" of a nearby village. They found us (and other Brits) by going through the telephone directory. The local children had made poppies for us. The ceremony remembered the dead from all wars and I had a hard job preventing a water leak from my eyes.

[Joe]

My wife and I paid our respect yesterday in our village.It was very moving.We walked with the firemen and the mayor and the other residents around the square to the memorial.It was the first time for us.As I said very moving.

[Chancer]

[quote user="DerekJ"][quote user="Cendrillon"]
[/quote]

Certainly a slight "oversight" on her part.
eg. The battle of the Somme - July to November 1916.... around 420,000 British and Commonwealth casualties! 20,000 on the first day!
Yes, I think you could say we were in it.
[/quote]

Actually it was 60,000 casualties on the first day with 19000 dead, between July and September the Commonwealth had suffered 420,000 casualties (125,000 dead) and the French to the south had lost more than 200,000, German losses were estimated at 600,000.

In places the front line had moved 13km elsewhere it had not moved at all.

People were still dying until recently from injuries sustained in WW1 and others still die from the munitions remaining, 2 men from our local bomb disposal team 2 years ago.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

It still amazes me how the first world war started. It really was like they were all waiting for an excuse to fight.

[DerekJ]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="DerekJ"][quote user="Cendrillon"]

[/quote]

Certainly a slight "oversight" on her part.

eg. The battle of the Somme - July to November 1916.... around 420,000 British and Commonwealth casualties! 20,000 on the first day!

Yes, I think you could say we were in it.

[/quote]

Actually it was 60,000 casualties on the first day with 19000 dead, between July and September the Commonwealth had suffered 420,000 casualties (125,000 dead) and the French to the south had lost more than 200,000, German losses were estimated at 600,000.

In places the front line had moved 13km elsewhere it had not moved at all.

People were still dying until recently from injuries sustained in WW1 and others still die from the munitions remaining, 2 men from our local bomb disposal team 2 years ago.

[/quote]

You're right. I expressed that wrongly.  Thanks for correcting.

[buelligan]

Richard said; [quote]It still amazes me how the first world war started. It really was like they were all waiting for an excuse to fight.[/quote]

Plus ça change...[:(]

[Pierre ZFP]

Well it didn't have much to do with Duke Ferdinand being asassinated although that's the popular version.

As I understood it, it was a re-match from the Franco-Prussian war which had never really gone away.