DSK, can we believe this?

[Clair]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

CFCV say it far better than I can:

http://www.cfcv.asso.fr/communiques/c2,communique.php?id=79

[/quote]

This is a brilliantly written communiqué.

It covers just about every aspect of this sad business and clearly helps to define what I feel is the main aspect of the disagreement in the current discussion:

[quote]... beaucoup s’accordent à décrire DSK comme un « libertin », un « dragueur »... il semble que certains soient finalement assez fiers de ce nouveau témoignage de la gaillardise française.

Encore une fois, la tolérance

« gauloise » (« personne n’en parle ») s’appuie sur la confusion entre

drague et agression sexuelle....[/quote]

I see Frenche on one side of the divide and I stand solidly on the other.

[idun]

[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="idun"] I don't know how many times female friends in France would say this little one liner to me 'q'est ce tu veux, c'est comme ca' when I would question various chauvinistic behaviour in France. I could not acquiesce as they appear to.
I made a little comment earlier, but I am actually quite 'proud' of many of the comments that the men have made on here. I find it very reassuring that  men can be men without being predators.[/quote]

Isn't that the nub of the debate, whilst men will always be from mars and women from venus, with my anglo-saxon mindset it seems to me that's it's never been easier for women to complain about sexual affronts to them (and never worse for men, who are instantly named and shamed before trial) so it does make you wonder about the different attitude to this by french women; why aren't they aware of attitudes elsewhere and capable of asserting themselves against affronts?

[/quote]

 

Ofcourse you are right just john.  It never has been so easy for women to complain, in the UK/America at least, I think maybe as it is a 'new' thing, that time will have to be taken to adjust to the new status quo.And I have no doubt that it is 'new'. Men will just have to have some patience, women probably have been 'putting up' with disgraceful behaviour since time began. Hopefully things will balance out in the not to distant future.

 

As I said in an another post, I have not found that french women have been more forgiving with their spouses affairs than my british friends have been with their wandering husbands. Few accept, most get rid.

 

[Hoddy]

Id I now understand correctly then I think that we have finally got to the heart of the matter. If the French view is that what people do in their private lives is their own business that seems fair enough. When it's a politician like Chris Huhne, for example, whose wife had to give up her own high-flying job because he was a cabinet minister and then only very shortly afterwards is discovered to be having an affair, I think it is my business.

It says something about his character and I wouldn't vote for him.

Hoddy

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="cooperlola"]

CFCV say it far better than I can:

http://www.cfcv.asso.fr/communiques/c2,communique.php?id=79

[/quote]
This is a brilliantly written communiqué.
It covers just about every aspect of this sad business and clearly helps to define what I feel is the main aspect of the disagreement in the current discussion:

[quote]... beaucoup s’accordent à décrire DSK comme un « libertin », un « dragueur »... il semble que certains soient finalement assez fiers de ce nouveau témoignage de la gaillardise française.
Encore une fois, la tolérance « gauloise » (« personne n’en parle ») s’appuie sur la confusion entre drague et agression sexuelle....[/quote]

I see Frenche on one side of the divide and I stand solidly on the other.

[/quote]

Hey hey there !!  Did I ever say I supported rape and sexual predatory behaviours ? 

I just said an affair is an affair, DSK can have hundreds, I don't care .

What he is currently accused of is definitely not an affair, it is a crime , and I NEVER said I supported that.

I just said " innocent until proven guilty " . I don't like the way the anglo-saxon press deals with alleged criminals.

Clair, for some reason, you obviously like to try and upset me .. [Www]

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Frenchie"]Hey hey there !!  Did I ever say I supported rape and sexual predatory behaviours ? [/quote]

No you didn't, and I did not say you had.

I am talking of the divide which seemingly makes it difficult to see the line where being a dragueur blends into being a sexual predator.

[just john]

[quote user="Hoddy"]Id I now understand correctly then I think that we have finally got to the heart of the matter. If the French view is that what people do in their private lives is their own business that seems fair enough.  [/quote]

From all of the above, it does seem that the French defend privacy for the tacit agreement to affairs; That is not to say they include unwanted attention but what if the attention does not succeed?, the area here seems very grey as to when it changes and what the anglo-saxons see as made worse by not reporting. So there needs to be some understanding that not reporting unwanted attention amounts to tacit agreement and it is the womans (or mans) responsibility to make the judgement as to what is acceptable and to report the unacceptable.
''They forget one important detail: the consent! That's what changes everything, from sex between adults on the one hand and a rape on the other. Sexual freedom, libertarianism, have nothing in common with sexual abuse.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Hoddy"]Id I now understand correctly then I think that we have finally got to the heart of the matter. If the French view is that what people do in their private lives is their own business that seems fair enough. When it's a politician like Chris Huhne, for example, whose wife had to give up her own high-flying job because he was a cabinet minister and then only very shortly afterwards is discovered to be having an affair, I think it is my business. It says something about his character and I wouldn't vote for him. Hoddy[/quote]

I agree Hoddy, and as far as I am concerned once you put yourself in a position where tax payers are involved (MPs etc) then you should be accountable for your behavior, on and off duty.

The IMF is funded by the member countries, out of our taxes, even apart from this latest event, it seems obvious that DSK was not behaving well or was very poor at reading signals, if he was really hoping to start affairs on every reported occasion, either way my own feeling it is public business. It detracts from his reputation and the respect in which he is held

As for Mitterand and Chirac, times change, we have moved on - look at the difference in the way Kennedy and Clinton were treated .....

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Frenchie"]Hey hey there !!  Did I ever say I supported rape and sexual predatory behaviours ? [/quote]
No you didn't, and I did not say you had.
I am talking of the divide which seemingly makes it difficult to see the line where being a dragueur blends into being a sexual predator.
[/quote]

Very clear to me : An affair, both want it !

A predatory behaviour: one of the persons ( man or woman) does not want it, is forced into it .

[Benjamin]

[quote user="just john "]

So there needs to be some understanding that not reporting unwanted attention amounts to tacit agreement and it is the womans (or mans) responsibility to make the judgement as to what is acceptable and to report the unacceptable.

''They forget one important detail: the consent! That's what changes everything, from sex between adults on the one hand and a rape on the other. Sexual freedom, libertarianism, have nothing in common with sexual abuse.

[/quote]

As I said some pages back, given the historical acceptance in France of a man's right to indulge in chasing women, whether welcmoe or not, it's going to take a very brave woman to publicise the unwelcome attentio s he is receiving from any male but all the more so when the man is a well known figure.

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

As for Mitterand and Chirac, times change, we have moved on - look at the difference in the way Kennedy and Clinton were treated .....

[/quote]

I bet if it was  revealed that Sarkozy had an affair, the French would take it with the same indifference as with Mitterrand.

 

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="just john "]

 It must be up to the offended party to stand up and protest surely, and what other way is there ?

[/quote]However, when they do, look what happens (this  is for the UK,):

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/mythsampfacts2.php

"Only 15% of serious sexual offences against people 16 and over are reported to the police and of the rape offences that are reported, fewer than 6% result in an offender being convicted of this offence. "

In France the conviction rate is similar, if not worse (I can't find the stats at the mo' but I will) and only 10% are thought to have been reported.

As the CFCV article points out, this is the one crime where the victim is expeted to PROVE that a crime has been commited. First you have to go through all the physical examinations, then you have to be interrogated as if you were the criminal, then you have to go to court and face your accuser (for that is what he will be, he will accuse you of falsely reporting a crime, of lying, of perjury, of being a "slag", of "asking for it".)  Why do you reckon then, that women don't "stand up" against these perverts?  Go figure.[Www]

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Frenchie"]Hey hey there !!  Did I ever say I supported rape and sexual predatory behaviours ? [/quote]
No you didn't, and I did not say you had.
I am talking of the divide which seemingly makes it difficult to see the line where being a dragueur blends into being a sexual predator.
[/quote]

Very clear to me : An affair, both want it !

A predatory behaviour: one of the persons ( man or woman) does not want it, is forced into it .

[/quote]

Every 'affair' starts with a move - if the signals have been mis read or there were not any actually, then it becomes predatory - how many times does a guy have to get it wrong before there is a problem ?

[MrCanary]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

"Noone on here has said that sexual abuse is not a problem".  I really don't know what I can explain about that sentence, it seems pretty clear.

"What has been said is that people's private lives should be respected".  This was referring to earlier on in the thread where it was said that in France people's privacy is respected (in general), whereas in the UK they can be hounded by the press.  Nothing to do with harrassment.  You (Quillan) are making statements that some on here have found sexual harrassment in France to be okay.  I have not seen anyone say that and just tried to give an example of what has been said about the two different cultures.

[/quote]

Christine, I agree. Sexual abuse, wherever it happens, will always be a problem and I do not recall anyone posting to the contrary. I imagine sexual abuse happens in every country in the world. It would be naive to think it doesn't.  

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Russethouse"]

As for Mitterand and Chirac, times change, we have moved on - look at the difference in the way Kennedy and Clinton were treated .....

[/quote]

I bet if it was  revealed that Sarkozy had an affair, the French would take it with the same indifference as with Mitterrand.

 

 

[/quote]I don't care if anybody has an affair.  It's up to them.  I've had them, my o/h has had them.  We and the other people involved are all aware of the situation and where we stand.  I have no problem with politicians shagging anybody, provided that the person involved agrees (and isn't coerced IN ANY WAY - and that includes being denied promotion etc if they dare to say no) and that the families are aware and happy that it goes on - including any children.   But if a politician has put his hand up somebody's skirt without being invited to; if he has forced a woman into a sexual act of any kind against her will, if he has made inappropriate remarks to women in the workplace or elsewhere, then he is not fit to rule on the morals of the nation he represents and thus is not fit for political or public office.

[Christine Animal]

And harassment should only have one r.  Many typos and spelling mistakes today, all very harrowing!

 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Russethouse"]

As for Mitterand and Chirac, times change, we have moved on - look at the difference in the way Kennedy and Clinton were treated .....

[/quote]

I bet if it was  revealed that Sarkozy had an affair, the French would take it with the same indifference as with Mitterrand.

 

 

[/quote]I don't care if anybody has an affair.  It's up to them.  I've had them, my o/h has had them.  We and the other people involved are all aware of the situation and where we stand.  I have no problem with politicians shagging anybody, provided that the person involved agrees (and isn't coerced IN ANY WAY - and that includes being denied promotion etc if they dare to say no) and that the families are aware and happy that it goes on - including any children.   But if a politician has put his hand up somebody's skirt without being invited to; if he has forced a woman into a sexual act of any kind against her will, if he has made inappropriate remarks to women in the workplace or elsewhere, then he is not fit to rule on the morals of the nation he represents and thus is not fit for political or public office.[/quote]

 A brave post Coops, I agree with you 100 % .

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Frenchie"]Very clear to me : An affair, both want it !

A predatory behaviour: one of the persons ( man or woman) does not want it, is forced into it .[/quote]

OK then! We agree on this point at least! [:)]

Next, let's see if we can find common ground on another point...

By several accounts, DSK is said to have pressured women to engage in sexual behaviour they did not want.

There is what DSK's wife called a one-night stand, with his IMF subordinate (Piroska Nagy said that without question he had used his position to pursued her, until she felt damned if she did, damned if she didn't).

There is the alleged assault (I have to say alleged) described by his daughter's friend Tristane Banon (she said she was forced to fight him off, she had to kick him).

There is the account of the Socialist politician Auriele Filipetti, who said she was groped and vowed to never find herself alone in a room with him.

So Frenchie, I ask: in your opinion, is this the behaviour of a dragueur, or is it the behaviour of a sexual predator?

Edit: what Anne Sinclair called a one-night-stand was described by the woman in question as an affair she felt coerced into by a superior. DSK was cleared of having abused his position.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="Frenchie"]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Frenchie"]Hey hey there !!  Did I ever say I supported rape and sexual predatory behaviours ? [/quote]
No you didn't, and I did not say you had.
I am talking of the divide which seemingly makes it difficult to see the line where being a dragueur blends into being a sexual predator.
[/quote]

Very clear to me : An affair, both want it !

A predatory behaviour: one of the persons ( man or woman) does not want it, is forced into it .

[/quote]

Every 'affair' starts with a move - if the signals have been mis read or there were not any actually, then it becomes predatory - how many times does a guy have to get it wrong before there is a problem ?

[/quote]There was a post on another forum (no names, no pack drill) about a woman who had been - shall we say - "come on to" by a neighbour.  She felt that she had rejected him quite firmly and yet he still tried it on and went further than she wished (although no obvious "assault" took place since he did finally stop before anything overtly sexual took place).  The questioner (a male friend of the victim) was asking if posters felt this was naive on the part of the attacker or assault because the man in question was surprised when the woman threw him out of the house and asked him not to come back.  There's mis-reading signals, and there's hearing somebody say no, feeling them trying to shove you off them and yet ignoring it (as has happened to me on more than one occasion). 

Apparently some men (of varying nationalities, I have no doubt) just can't tell the difference.  At the very least, I suspect that DSK is one of those.

[Frenchie]

Interesting post again, Coops, I wonder if pornography doesn't have a responsibility in that .

In those films, women say " NO", then, they seem to be happy with what forcibly happens.

When you think that today's youth discovers what love and sex are on the internet, it makes me wonder..........

I talked to my son ( now 17) , I explained to him that what he could have seen on the net was not the real thing.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Russethouse"]

As for Mitterand and Chirac, times change, we have moved on - look at the difference in the way Kennedy and Clinton were treated .....

[/quote]

I bet if it was  revealed that Sarkozy had an affair, the French would take it with the same indifference as with Mitterrand.

[/quote]

 I'm not sure Sarkozy would agree with you, after all, he was a free agent but decided to marry Carla.

How pleased were French people in general to discover that his second wife had been virtually playing a role to help his election campaign, while all the time having another relationship. They were divorced shortly after the election. Kind of tacky wasn't it ?

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"] [quote user="just john "]  what other way is there ? [/quote]

  the victim is expeted to PROVE that a crime has been commited. [/quote]

We all understand the ordeal, but as I say what other way is there? and is there something else in between that could be done? perhaps some avoidance of situations, two maids, or same sex cleaners whatever, surely you're not suggesting guilty til proven innocent?

IMHO it must be innocent until proven guilty (witness the prosecutions against some women's false claims) however perhaps one of those women earlier reporting the offence could have prevented the others from facing the same?

[Quillan]

It seems we are all getting nearer and nearer to the same conclusion but I'll say nowt till we actually get there.

The thing about the French privacy law is it does not work. It does not protect the vulnerable and is abused by those of power. I think Frenchie that you are wrong when you say that you don't care because you should.

The whole thing about politicians is they should be honest and not corrupt and certainly not deceitful. The fact that a politician has an affair whilst still married (obviously) means he/she is being deceitful to their wife/husband. If they can do this then what else are they capable of plus it sort of gives them a green light because nobody will ever know least of all those who believed in him/her and voted them in to office, quite frankly it's an insult to them. This is why these people should be exempt from this law, they have to be whiter than white and the fact they could be 'outed' should they have an affair may well deter them.

On the other hand, where it does not work, is when people who are married for instance, are famous, continuously in the media media spotlight want to go on holiday, they should be left in peace so they can enjoy a bit of private time together. This is so often ignored in France and the behavior of the French and foreign paparazzi on French soil has even contributed to the untimely death of people. To me this law is a two tiered law and obviously there to protect politicians in particular.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

Interesting post again, Coops, I wonder if pornography doesn't have a responsibility in that .

In those films, women say " NO", then, they seem to be happy with what forcibly happens.

[/quote]

You seem to know a bit about pornography Frenchie, certainly more than me, I thought all you Catholic girls were good girls.[:$]  [;-)]

[woolybanana]

Nah, they are Blessed Bad Girls!

[cooperlola]

[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="cooperlola"] [quote user="just john "]  what other way is there ? [/quote]

  the victim is expeted to PROVE that a crime has been commited. [/quote]

We all understand the ordeal, but as I say what other way is there? [/quote]I don't know but I do think it is something which needs to be addressed both here and in other countries (not least the UK.)  I also believe that things have improved over the years, even in my adult lifetime.  For instance, there are more women police officers, more women advocates, more women politicians and lawmakers, and more women on the judiciary - but still nothing like enough, especially of the latter.  There are more specialist units for dealing with sex-based crimes.  There needs to be more public awareness, and better reporting procedures, especially in the workplace where - even now - the majority of bosses is male.  And - again I don't know how - but somebody needs to be teaching our youth that this behavious is unacceptable and barbaric and has no place in modern, humane society.  I do think that attitudes are changing, here in France as much as elsewhere, and that the tacit acceptance of "flirtatious" men (by which we really mean sexual predators) is becoming less acceptable to the young than it is amongst their seniors. 

At least we're discussing this now (not just on here but all over France), that can only be a good thing.