Clair Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="woolybanana"]Clair, you utterly surprise me, you roll me over on the sofa and wipe me out. I find it difficult to believe that the French have such heroes, that anyone has such heroes.[/quote]I didn't say he was real, I said that to them, he seemed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Don't much care about your comment either. I know the French language because it is mine. And I know what Anglo Saxon means when used in French, as stated in the article from the famous dictionary I ve quoted. Now, enjoy yourselves , almost all of you, spend your precious time spitting on us, because what you're doing is , beyond a lynching of DSK, a denial of our values and mentalities, you don't want to open your minds to try and understand. NO, I didn't say agree. I said, try to understand.Now, I ve understood what the anglo saxons think about it all, and how the press, your press, and TV can influence you, I think I have better ways to use my time, yes, it is useless to debate on here, because it is not a debate.Thanks Christine <animal, for pointing me the right direction : OUT ! [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="woolybanana"]Clair, you utterly surprise me, you roll me over on the sofa and wipe me out. I find it difficult to believe that the French have such heroes, that anyone has such heroes.[/quote]I didn't say he was real, I said that to them, he seemed to be.[/quote]Subtle, subtle!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]Don't much care about your comment either. I know the French language because it is mine. And I know what Anglo Saxon means when used in French, as stated in the article from the famous dictionary I ve quoted. Now, enjoy yourselves , almost all of you, spend your precious time spitting on us, because what you're doing is , beyond a lynching of DSK, a denial of our values and mentalities, you don't want to open your minds to try and understand. NO, I didn't say agree. I said, try to understand.Now, I ve understood what the anglo saxons think about it all, and how the press, your press, and TV can influence you, I think I have better ways to use my time, yes, it is useless to debate on here, because it is not a debate.Thanks Christine <animal, for pointing me the right direction : OUT ! [:D][/quote]Frenchie, Its no good denying that this has highlighted a difference in culture, because it has, however that is not spitting at the French race, so please do not translate it as such.Are there other European Countries that have what I will term the 'French' attitude ? Italy perhaps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"] Now, enjoy yourselves , almost all of you, spend your precious time spitting on us, because what you're doing is , beyond a lynching of DSK, a denial of our values and mentalities, you don't want to open your minds to try and understand. NO, I didn't say agree. I said, try to understand.[/quote]I - and probably most of us who're discussing this case, here and elsewhere - are not "spitting" on anyone. The fact this guy is French is of particular interest, of course, because we all have an interest in France. But the discussion, the analysis, the speculation would be similar whether the man involved was British, German, Spanish, Peruvian... Yes, Jon Stewart used specific shorthand and stereotyping about France... but he would have used the relevant shorthand and stereotyping about any other nationality too.I think there is a humour cultural divide - if this man was British, we'd be doing exactly the same and Jon Stewart would be trotting out every last cliché about Brits... and we'd be laughing at ourselves. But I do have to say is that if opening my mind means I must try and understand how dirty old men pushing themselves on much younger women is something to be tolerated and even lauded (nudge nudge, wink wink) that slam you just heard was my mind closing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="Russethouse"]Are there other European Countries that have what I will term the 'French' attitude ? Italy perhaps ?[/quote]Definitely.Berlusconi is a sad example of the culture of the omnipotent politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"] Now, enjoy yourselves , almost all of you, spend your precious time spitting on us, because what you're doing is , beyond a lynching of DSK, a denial of our values and mentalities, you don't want to open your minds to try and understand. NO, I didn't say agree. I said, try to understand.Thanks Christine <animal, for pointing me the right direction : OUT ! [:D][/quote]Good Lord ! I certainly do not spend ANY time 'spitting on' the French. I adore France and the French. If I didn't, I would not have spent the last 11 years of my life in France. Please do not pen me that way. I AM trying to understand the French attitude about this case. Hence the reason for reading this and many other forums (both French and non-French) on the subject.There has been a great deal of American/America bashing here and there too. I'm not taking it personally. Please Frenchie do not take things so personally. I enjoy reading your comments, even if I might not agree with all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Frenchie, I have no idea at all as to why you have become so sensitive about this. French posters on here have had their say. You accuse people of not watching french tv, and I agree it is good for anyone, and especially foreigners living in France to watch french tv, but they don't have to either, and me, well I do and I watch it every single day. And any colourful language about things french is not of my own invention, heard directly from french ladies, rather than french men and usually not young ones either. I have never spit on France, and frankly I often think that you believe I hate the place, and that is not true. France as I have always said is just a country, it has good and bad things in it like everywhere else has. And as I would feel about anywhere else, I simply do not like the bad. So no, I cannot think bad things are good or think better of them just because they are french and that too is not spitting on France or the french. There are plenty of things I find bad in England now, and I don't think any better of them because they are 'mine'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Even if it was (were?) a honey trap, even if it was a Russian plot, the man could have just said, No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="idun"]Frenchie, I have no idea at all as to why you have become so sensitive about this. French posters on here have had their say. You accuse people of not watching french tv, and I agree it is good for anyone, and especially foreigners living in France to watch french tv, but they don't have to either, and me, well I do and I watch it every single day. And any colourful language about things french is not of my own invention, heard directly from french ladies, rather than french men and usually not young ones either. I have never spit on France, and frankly I often think that you believe I hate the place, and that is not true. France as I have always said is just a country, it has good and bad things in it like everywhere else has. And as I would feel about anywhere else, I simply do not like the bad. So no, I cannot think bad things are good or think better of them just because they are french and that too is not spitting on France or the french. There are plenty of things I find bad in England now, and I don't think any better of them because they are 'mine'.[/quote]idun, where'd you learn to give such a well-balanced and comprehensive reply? I take my hat off to you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanary Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Whilst I don't agree with Frenchie's belief that people on here are spitting on the French, I do have some sympathy with her viewpoint on this matter...It does strike me that a large number of people taking part in this debate have already convicted DSK purely on the evidence of the media. You must remember that what the media do not know, they invariably make up - albeit in a very clever non-libellous way. It strikes me that one or two posters would be the first to take part in a lynch mob for DSK if they had the opportunity.Yes, this is a debate and a very good one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please wait to hear the facts that come out in court before convicting or freeing the man. Having said that, I know from experience many of them may be muddied by lies in court from both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote user="Mel"]Yes, this is a debate and a very good one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please wait to hear the facts that come out in court before convicting or freeing the man. Having said that, I know from experience many of them may be muddied by lies in court from both sides. [/quote] The problem in the USA is that the lawyers will be argueing about what is admissible in evidence, so the jury and the public and the press may not see or hear all the evidence. I personally think that any evidence should always be in court and the jury decide if it is relevant to their decision, but that is just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 http://patrickallemand.fr/2011/05/3302/See, I'm not the only one to have that feeling. . . Now, bye everybody. For good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I thought you said that before.Honestly, you are taking this way too personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 It must be terribly upsetting for the many DSK supporters to see what has been happening. Especially since beyond that, it is an indictment of some of the ways French culture operates.The bottom line is that to a large number of French people, DSK has represented the next political savior - and it must be intolerable to see him toppled off his pedestal, as with him has gone the hope that the next presidential change could be for the better. A shock, and very depressing. Clair's mention of E. Kubler-Ross's different stages of grief is very topical and relevant.As for a belated response to Frenchie, in her absence: (and by the way, some of my French family would agree with Frenchie 100%)!To me, "les Anglo Saxons" in French, it is a bit like "les Anglais", i.e. used in a way that all other French people will understand, in spite of the inaccuracy of such terms. French language "belongs" to a diversity of French people, it is not the monopoly of anyone - unless there is some "essential Frenchness" to which everyone should aspire? I am very uncomfortable with your "you and us" notion when you say "our values and mentalities" as if ALL French people have the same values and mentalities, i.e. yours? - which I presume, loosely refer to the republican ideal, pretending to live the "liberté égalité fraternité" motto? Whether one likes it or not, there are more and more people who do not "belong" just to one culture, with just one language and one monolithic set of values. Are some French people more French than others? We, the hybrids, are on the increase, as I am sure many people on this forum will witness through their own children and grandchildren. The "you and us" approach is rather offensive, narrow-minded and short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyA Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I think this article is interesting:http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/jay-mcinerney-the-rich-and-powerful-in-handcuffs-one-of-the-great-sights-of-new-york-2287194.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 [quote user="idun"] [quote user="Mel"]Yes, this is a debate and a very good one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please wait to hear the facts that come out in court before convicting or freeing the man. Having said that, I know from experience many of them may be muddied by lies in court from both sides. [/quote] The problem in the USA is that the lawyers will be argueing about what is admissible in evidence, so the jury and the public and the press may not see or hear all the evidence. I personally think that any evidence should always be in court and the jury decide if it is relevant to their decision, but that is just me. [/quote] I believe it to be sensible to exclude evidence from a trial if it has been obtained illegally eg a confession beaten out of somebody by the police or such like.I have tried to keep an open mind on this case in my contributions to this thread. My view in a very simplified way has always been that either DSK has been framed by security services or in fact he was guilty as charged. In either case this does not change my view that Rape is one of the worst crimes and has a devastating effect upon its victims. Flirting with a woman or even propositioning her is one thing but forcing yourself on her is quite another. The woman's right to say No must be respected. It has been said that rape is not about sex but about power/domination. In this long thread there seem to be several themes - The guilt or otherwise of DSK - The differing cultural views of the actual offence.I have an open mind with regard to the first until I have heard the evidence. On the second I have made my views clear I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 [quote user="5-element"]I am very uncomfortable with your "you and us" notion when you say "our values and mentalities" as if ALL French people have the same values and mentalities[/quote]Thank you 5-E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanary Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I would not like Frenchie to leave. She may be over-reacting, but I like her contributions on here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I think it is sad that Frenchie has decided to stop contributing BUT everyone has their own opinion AND has a right (within reason i.e. the rules of the forum etc) to express them be they right or wrong in the eye of others. Just because they don't accept your point of view does not mean however that they are 'down' on you as an individual or as a collective.We are all a bit nationalistic at times, I personally don't like people thinking of us (Brits) as being the same as Americans because we are not, just in the same way as we are not the same as other countries where English (I use the term lightly) is the first language.As I said before, there is something that does not smell right about this and as the 'twists and turns' of the information being released shows there are more than couple of inconsistencies. Do I think Sarko is behind it, no I don't even though he has a lot to gain or should I say he has already gained a lot from it. There is a much bigger picture involved and if there is a conspiracy then it is more likely to surround the US, the IMF, the Euro and the current European economic situation. Strange how both the dollar and sterling have 'recovered' a bit against the Euro even after the latest terrible UK figures that were released within a short period of this happening. To put it this way, for me him being found guilty of this would be in the same league as the Christian group who claim its 'Rapture' day today and Jesus will return and none of us sinners will wake up tomorrow morning. Perhaps that's what Frenchie meant when she said she has more important things to do (if your reading this Frenchie that's an Anglo Saxon attempt at humour or humor if your American[;-)]).I do think there will be either no case to answer or he will be found not guilty but in the meantime his political and 'working' life is finished because sadly many will always say "there's no smoke without fire" even when there isn't any fire.As I said before, in the case of rape, which is the most horrendous of crimes, both the victim and the accused names should be kept secret till after the trial and even then the accused should only be named if found guilty. I agree with what Frenchie said a while back, we should not judge this man until after the court case, he is innocent until then and we need to wait and see what happens. I also support the 25 year prison sentence for rape which I believe should be the minimum across the world and should he be found guilty then the same law with regards to sentence should apply to him as it would to any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Frenchie, do NOT go.....stay and fight your corner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 "...............................stay and fight your corner! "Frenchie, is this not a case of "toys and prams"?[8-|]We can debate the DSK event all we like but I doubt our comments (and bickering) will change the outcome.[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 [quote user="Mel"]I would not like Frenchie to leave. She may be over-reacting, but I like her contributions on here...[/quote]I agree, Mel. That would be a sad outcome for the forum. Frenchie, we are all disagreed with at one time or another. Many of us have been criticised for our views on certain subjects but unless we continue to stand up for ourselves then those who disagree with us take the victory. It can be tough, it can be demorolising but - I know from personal, bitter experience - giving up is worse in the long run. Better to stand your ground, even if you were the last person standing which clearly, in this case you are not - there are plenty of supporters of your view. I think you will find if you look through this thread again that the split is in fact quite even and what is more that even those who suspect that there may be some substance to the allegations, will nevertheless reserve final judgement until the jury is out. And even if nobody agreed with you - which clearly is not the case, there are many who support you personally and who enjoy your virtual company. Yes, this forum has its disputes and we don't all agree but isn't that the point of debate? What I can also tell you from personal and in this case far-from-bitter experience, it is also a source of enormous and unexpected support and friendship during the tough times. Don't leave it lightly nor in a huff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 [quote user="EmilyA"]Could somebody explain to me what the "Anglo-Saxon media" are? (Not just used on here it was also on the TV debate last night). Are there many Anglo-Saxons in America? Does it exclude Celts and Vikings? I think we should be told.[/quote]No I wont but if you read Winston's History of the English speaking peoples, then the penny will drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanary Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"]t humour or humor if your American[;-)]).[/quote]Come on Quillan, get all the spelling correct... if you're American... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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