VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION RE 2011 DECLARATIONS

[parsnips]

Hi, I have been sent a copy of a letter sent to a friend by the Parthenay tax office ; it sets out important changes for this years declaration. Due to my lack of computer skills I cannot send a copy so have copied it myself below (it was sent in english by the tax office); "Dear Madam, Dear Sir, The fiscal law changes and you are concerned. The United Kingdom and France have signed a new agreementon the taxation of incomes acquired in 2010 in the United Kingdom. From now on , the double taxation will be avoided by the imputation of a tax credit. As a consequence , your next tax returns (2042 and 2047 forms) wil lbe differentfrom the last ones. In the form 2047 for foreign incomes (pink), you have to mention page one , all your incomes in the different topics(the pensions you will declare here are private and public pensions). If you have real property incomes, mention them in the box III. In this case ,we invite you to come to your centre des finances publiques to getinformations about the specific laws for these incomes. The taxation of moveable assets doesn't change. On the last page of the 2047 form, you have to declare the public pensions only, in box VI to determine the tax credit. Mention in box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies. In the form 2042 (blue), you must report page 3, the amount of all your incomes in the appropriate boxes, according to the nature of incomes. You also have to report page 4 in the box 8TK the amount of gross incomes determined in the box VI of the 2047 form, and in the box 8TL the amount of incomes assessed to the social contribution(CRDS) Of course , if you have any questions , or need any further information, please feel free to come to your centre des finances publiques." Included with the letter are copies of the new (slightly different) 2042 and 2047; On 2047 page 1 "pensions ,retraites , rentes "--is a note "private and public" (-it is evident from the letter that "public" means government-MY NOTE) 2047 page 1 sec III --is a note "real property incomes" ( on the form it says "subscribe une declaration des revenus fonciers No 2044 but, going by the rest of the instructions I think that should be ignored -MY NOTE) 2047 page 4 sec VI --is a note "public pension" and at total "Gross income" (this evidently means government pension--MY NOTE) 2047 page 4 sec VIII--is a note "incomes assessed to social levies" On 2042 page 3 box 1AS and 1BS is a note "Pensions (private and public)" 2042 Sec 4 box 4BA --is a note "real property income" 2042 box 8TL is a note "incomes assessed to social levies" 2042 box 8TK is a note -"Foreign incomes for tax credit" It may well be that this information will be sent out with all declarations --but I have already spoken to someone who has received 2042 without it. It can be seen that the possibilities for mistaken declarations are all too apparent---particularly with the change in purpose of box 8TI. I suggest a moderater tries to obtain and reproduce the letter and sample forms to post as a sticky.

 

[cooperlola]

Was there an original French version with the Google-ese one?

[Gardener]

My 2010 pink 2047k and blue 2047k is pretty much the same as every other year re declaring overseas derived income; eg everything on my forms will go in the same place as before.

8TI for example is the same on my form as on the sticky.

[parsnips]

Hi,

    Yes but when I printed it off , it came out in the english version.

[Patf]

What do you think they mean by "tax credit"?

[parsnips]

[quote user="Patf"]What do you think they mean by "tax credit"?

[/quote]

Hi,

 This is all set out in the "new" DTT which is available on line. "The taux effectif" has been superceded.

[Gardener]

Is this all linked to your previous post re the new double taxation treaty?

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2/2431791/ShowPost.aspx#2431791

If the impots are sending out the same pink form as always, with no notification of any changes, then I will fill it in the same as previous years.

[suej]

 

 

We have not received Blue 2042 yet though the lady at the Impots office assures me it will arrive shortly. ..

We have, however , received the pink 2047 and I  have found no difference in this year's format.  It looks to me as if the Notice pour Remplir  is an exact copy of last year's Notice too.

Are things a bit out of step in this department or is something getting a bit wobbly in the Google-translation? ? [ 'public'/'privée'/ 'state'/'government' pensions... ]

As far as I could see working on it yesterday the guidelines in FAQs applied just as last year- having said that I've not finished so must look again carefully..

Just to add- Last year 's 2047 that we completed contained exactly the same Page 4 section VIII as this year's , Notes identical too. Following the advice in FAQs  in this box I wrote: " Titulaire de Formulaires 121, donc je ne suis pas à la charge de l'assurance Maladie. NON-Assujettis au CRDS" and I clearly put a line through the box where a  euro sum would have been entered.

 I had papers checked at the Hôtel des Impotsand was told that was correct.

As our 2047 doesn't seem to have changed I'll do as last year , but get it checked again at the final stage.

[Sunday Driver]

I've also just checked the 2010 versions of the 2047 and 2042 against the previous year's forms and there is no difference between them.

It's not clear what these 'notes' are that Parsnips is referring to as they don't appear on either of my 2010 tax forms.  Have they just been handwritten on the standard tax forms by the local Parthenay office? 

If so, then the notes are clearly questionable as they don't even accord with the 2047 Notice. For example, the instruction to enter income which is subject to CRDS in the box for income which is taken into account for the calculation of 'taux effectif' is clearly incorrect so why the assumption that there has been a 'change of purpose of box 8TI'?

Let's not leap to premature conclusions here.......[8-)]

 

[Dave&Olive]

hi ok

       http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/france2.htm

               Dave

[Jay]

Got the same letter today, a few days after receiving the tax forms.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

I've also just checked the 2010 versions of the 2047 and 2042 against the previous year's forms and there is no difference between them.

It's not clear what these 'notes' are that Parsnips is referring to as they don't appear on either of my 2010 tax forms.  Have they just been handwritten on the standard tax forms by the local Parthenay office? 

If so, then the notes are clearly questionable as they don't even accord with the 2047 Notice. For example, the instruction to enter income which is subject to CRDS in the box for income which is taken into account for the calculation of 'taux effectif' is clearly incorrect so why the assumption that there has been a 'change of purpose of box 8TI'?

Let's not leap to premature conclusions here.......[8-)]

 

[/quote]

Hi,

    First, I must apologise , I wrote 8TI instead of 8TL (bad copy of form )-I have now corrected the original post.

,

The ambiguity arises from the fact that the new DTT provides for

relief from double taxation by tax credit and not by the "taux effectif"

.

The note to the 2047 says--"Les revenus qui, en virtu d'une

convention international ne sont pas imposables en France mais doivent

etre pris en compte pour le calcule du taux moyen ........etc doivent

etre portes sur la declaration No 2047 rubrique VII"-- is no longer in

accord with the current "convention"-the "new" DTT (2008) now in force.

What the letter sets out is how the incomes should be entered on

the current form, in accordance with the revised treaty. I assume that

it was meant to be sent out with all the forms 2047, but, in a typical

french c**k-up this has not been done.

I suspect that some offices will send it, others will amend forms

filled in "as usual", and others may well apply the old system.

I have yet to summon up the courage to start my online declaration, so don't know how that will be set out.

I do however predict a fair amount of chaos.

  I see that someone else has now received the letter , (see above), I have just emailed the impots service (national) for clarification. Will report result.

[Dave&Olive]

Dear Madam, Dear Sir,

 

The fiscal law changes and you are concerned.

 

The United Kingdom and France have signed a new agreement on the taxation of incomes acquired in 2010 in the United Kingdom.

>From now on, the double taxation will be avoided by the imputation of a tax credit.

As a consequence, your next tax returns (2042 and 2047 forms) will be different from the last ones .

 

In the form 2047 for foreign incomes (pink color), you have to mention page one, all your incomes in the different topics (the pensions you will declare here, are private and public pensions).

 

If you have real property incomes, mention them in the box III.

In this case, we invite you to come to your centre des finances publiques to get informations about the specific laws for these incomes.

 

The taxation of movable assets doesn't change.

 

On the last page of the 2047 form, you have to declare the public pensions only, in box VI, to determine the tax credit.

Mention in the box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies .

 

In the form 2042 (blue color), you must report page 3, the amount of all your incomes, in the appropriate boxes, according to the nature of incomes.

You also have to report page 4, in the box 8TK the amount of the gross incomes determined in the box VI of the 2047 form, and in the box 8TL, the amount of incomes assessed to the social contribution (CRDS).

 

Of course, if you have any questions, or need any further informations, please feel free to come to your centre des finances publiques.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

signature

 

[Boiling a frog]

On the last page of the 2047 form, you have to declare the public pensions only, in box VI, to determine the tax credit.

Mention in the box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies .

I am a bit puzzled, there seems to be no space to declare income tax already paid so how do the impots determine the tax credit.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]On the last page of the 2047 form, you have to declare the public pensions only, in box VI, to determine the tax credit.

Mention in the box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies .

I am a bit puzzled, there seems to be no space to declare income tax already paid so how do the impots determine the tax credit.[/quote]

Hi

    The tax paid in the UK is not taken into account, the gross is declared ---the credit is the amount of extra french tax which would be paid on the gross  ;see here..........  ...........http://www.cabinet-henderson.com/img/Website_New_Double_tax_treaty_France_UK.pdf

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"] Mention in the box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies ..[/quote]And what the **** is that supposed to mean?  I do wish that these authorities would not use a Google translator, but just write to us in French and leave us to puzzle it out - surely the onus is on the incomer to figure out the law of the land they have chosen to live in - or they should get an English speaker to write the English version.  Grrr.

[suej]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Boiling a frog"] Mention in the box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies ..[/quote]And what the **** is that supposed to mean?  I do wish that these authorities would not use a Google translator, but just write to us in French and leave us to puzzle it out - surely the onus is on the incomer to figure out the law of the land they have chosen to live in - or they should get an English speaker to write the English version.  Grrr.[/quote]

 

 

 Yes !Yes! Yessss!

I'd rather struggle with a dictionary than cope with a machine-created version !

[Gardian]

[quote user="parsnips"]I suspect that some offices will send it, others will amend forms filled in "as usual", and others may well apply the old system.
[/quote]

Never a truer word spoken.

It'll be a case of follow the instructions if you receive the dreaded letter (blood pressure rises nationwide amongst ex-pat Brits [:-))]), or just fill in the forms as before if you don't.

Either way, we won't really know for sure until we get our assessments in Aug / Sept.

[Jay]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Boiling a frog"] Mention in the box VIII the incomes assessed to the social levies ..[/quote]And what the **** is that supposed to mean?  I do wish that these authorities would not use a Google translator, but just write to us in French and leave us to puzzle it out - surely the onus is on the incomer to figure out the law of the land they have chosen to live in - or they should get an English speaker to write the English version.  Grrr.[/quote]

The letter is in French with the translation on the rear.........

La legislation fiscale change et vous etes concerne.

Le Royaume-Uni et Ia France ont signe une nouvelle convention relative a I'imposition des revenus acquis en 2010 au Royaume —Uni.

A partir des revenus 2010, vous beneticierez d’un credit d’impot pour eviter la double imposition. 

En consequence, vos prochaines declarations de revenus (2042 et 2047) seront modifiees pour tenir compte de ce changement.

Dans Ia declaration des revenus etrangers 2047 (de couleur rose), vous devrez mentionner I'integralite de vos revenus dans les differentes rubriques (les pensions a declarer sont les pensions publiques et privees)

Si vous avez des revenus fonciers, mentionnez les au cadre Ill.

La taxation des revenus de capitaux mobiliers est inchangee.

A la derniere page de cette declaration 2047, vous mentionnerez uniquement les pensions publiques au cadre VI pour le calcul du credit d'impot.

Mentionnez au cadre Vlll les revenus soumis aux contributions sociales (CRDS).

Dans la declaration de revenus 2042 (de couleur bleue), vous devez reporter page 3, les montants de la totalite des differents revenus dans les cases appropriees, selon Ia nature de ces revenus.

Vous devez egalement reporter page 4, en case 8TK Ie montant des revenus bruts determines au cadre Vl de Ia declaration 2047, et en case 8TL le montant des revenus soumis a Ia contribution au remboursement de

Ia dette sociale (CRDS).

Bien entendu, si vous avez des questions, ou si vous souhaitez de plus amples informations, n'hesitez pas a venir nous rencontrer dans les centres des finances publiques.

Je me tiens a votre disposition pour tout renseignement complementaire et vous prie d'agreer, Madame, Monsieur, l’expression de ma consideration distinguee.

[cooperlola]

Thanks Jay.  Makes sense now.  Phew. [:)]

I still reckon they ought to get a native English speaker to finish these things off - especially as this letter seems to be being sent out to lots of people. 

[allanb]

I don't yet claim to understand the change in the tax credit system, but so far as the UK state retirement pension is concerned, I don't see that the new treaty changes anything for a French resident.

[quote user="parsnips"]The ambiguity arises from the fact that the new DTT provides for

relief from double taxation by tax credit...[/quote]Yes, but surely only where there is double taxation.  Article 18 of the new treaty appears to be unchanged: a UK pension is taxable only in France unless it falls within one of the exceptions in article 19, the main one being (as before) a pension from government service.  So there is no double taxation of the state pension.

[quote]... and not by the taux effectif method.[/quote]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the taux effectif method of calculation was ever specified in the treaty: I think it was purely a matter of French tax law.  If I'm right, it would still apply to revenu exonéré, wouldn't it?

[parsnips]

[quote user="allanb"]I don't yet claim to understand the change in the tax credit system, but so far as the UK state retirement pension is concerned, I don't see that the new treaty changes anything for a French resident.

[quote user="parsnips"]The ambiguity arises from the fact that the new DTT provides for

relief from double taxation by tax credit...[/quote]Yes, but surely only where there is double taxation.  Article 18 of the new treaty appears to be unchanged: a UK pension is taxable only in France unless it falls within one of the exceptions in article 19, the main one being (as before) a pension from government service.  So there is no double taxation of the state pension.

[quote]... and not by the taux effectif method.[/quote]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the taux effectif method of calculation was ever specified in the treaty: I think it was purely a matter of French tax law.  If I'm right, it would still apply to revenu exonéré, wouldn't it?

[/quote]

Hi,

     Nobody has said that the state retirement pension is concerned. The changes only affect income which by the new (and old ) treaty are only taxable by the country in which they arise ie; rents and government pensions(civil service, teachers etc).

    Under the new system ALL income becomes taxable in France , in the first instance, therefore giving rise to double taxation on those income categories. In order to comply with the article which makes them taxable only in the UK, a tax credit equal to the extra  french tax assessed on those categories is given. As someone has said it is a mainly paper exercise which should have much the same outcome as the "taux effectif" which is, in fact,somewhat ambiguously described in the "old" treaty.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="parsnips"][. The changes only affect income which by the new (and old ) treaty are only taxable by the country in which they arise ie; rents and government pensions(civil service, teachers etc).
    [/quote]Are these the only people who have received the letter, does anybody know, and have all of those people got one or just some of them? 

I ask because the letter does specify that "you are affected."

[tinabee]

I believe we should be affected but haven't received a letter, nor are the tax forms (2042 an 2047) any different from last year. I wonder whether the new forms and way of completing them are being piloted in one area?

[andyh4]

Well I am not afffected and I do not have a letter.

 

Alone that is not statistically significant of course, but it could justz be a targeted mailing