sid Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 It would be nice to be a rich OAP. [Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="dwmcn"]idun,And I replied to Betty to tell her my experience. After all, this is a forum for an exchange of ideas, or I thought it was. As I said, I don't expect nastiness here or I wouldn't have posted. The language and nastiness on another forum I use would shock most posters here.Like you, I think most (maybe all) politicians are out for all they can get. I quit the Lib Dems after many years of being a member, even though being an American I can't vote, because of the coalition and 'problems' with MPs and Lords. I take and keep anything any government wants to give me.I forgot to say that I read about this forum in Living France msagazine.David [/quote]If I can make my own case, I didn't actually at any time say I didn't care about anyone,or anything. I believe it was dwmcn who said that he didn't care. Anyway, the point I made was that I was singled out and asked to pronounce on a particular case, as if I was taking some sort of standpoint, whereas in fact the only specific viewpoint I expressed was that I thought it kind of silly that over 60's in work got free prescriptions. I have no idea why dwmcn then posted (what I felt) was a slightly confrontational response asking me specifically what I would do about his situation, to which I replied as above. If that's perceived as nasty, then so be it. To be honest, I've seen worse here and elsewhere, and I don't ever recall feeling the urge to post a "poor me" response if my nose has been put out of joint, much less to resort to "I don't care about you, either". But it's a funny old world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="Rabbie"] Lets just clarify what he did. He didn't stop tax relief on peoples contributions. He did stop tax relief on the investment income coming into the pension fund So the question now is "Should you get two lots of tax relief on your pension contributions?" I have an open mind on this one now I am retired and have my pension.[/quote] Yes, I know that, but income created by dividends from the fund's investments could be considered as income of the participants being paid into the fund. What is/was the other tax relief on pension contributions you refer to, given that you say whatever GB stopped was not one of these, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Rabbie"] Lets just clarify what he did. He didn't stop tax relief on peoples contributions. He did stop tax relief on the investment income coming into the pension fund So the question now is "Should you get two lots of tax relief on your pension contributions?" I have an open mind on this one now I am retired and have my pension.[/quote] Yes, I know that, but income created by dividends from the fund's investments could be considered as income of the participants being paid into the fund. What is/was the other tax relief on pension contributions you refer to, given that you say whatever GB stopped was not one of these, please? [/quote]Every month when I was employed I paid into my employers pension scheme. This was deducted from my gross salary before tax and my income tax was calculated on my gross salary minus my pension payments. My employer also made a matching payment into the pension fund on my behalf. This money was administered by an independent fund manager and I was sent regular statements showing how the fund had grown. When I retired this money was used to purchase a pension.The net result was I didn't pay tax on these contributions either when I made them or when I got the lump sum of money to purchase my pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Rabbie - the pension schemes from employers are worked out in a completely different way from the govt. OAP. (Which I still think is a "benefit" because what we put in was used for other purposes before Brown too - Quillan [;-)], and what we get is from other sources . There was no precious "pension pot" there.)I have a 2nd pension from my previous employer and get regular reports on how their investments are doing.The govt. NI scheme started off as a sort of personal pension pot, but soon the contributions were used for other things.Only one example - say when you got your pension at 65, 5000 other people retired in the same month. Of those, 3000 died before reaching 70. If you're still living, any of their contributions above what they received could go towards your future pensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Patf, I am well aware off that. I was not talking about my State pension. I was talking about the company pension scheme. The key difference between the company pension contributions is that they did not come out of taxed income whereas my NI contributions did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="dwmcn"]Norman,If we weren't so old, we would sell up and move to France.David[/quote]David, I bet you aren't as old as my OH when we moved. He was 76 and, now, 6 years later, he is, thankfully, still alive to enjoy the benefits of our move.As some American or other has said, if you think you will or if you think you won't, you are probably right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="Rabbie"]Patf, I am well aware off that. I was not talking about my State pension. I was talking about the company pension scheme. The key difference between the company pension contributions is that they did not come out of taxed income whereas my NI contributions did.[/quote]Rabbie, please forgive me if I have misunderstood or "misremembered" but I really didn't think that NI contributions were taxed? Mentally, trying to remember what pay slips looked like, I thought there was a box for NI contributions and then tax on net pay (after deductions)?Wish you hadn't brought this up as I am getting increasingly confused about the past and, needless to say, even more about the present! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Rabbie"]Patf, I am well aware off that. I was not talking about my State pension. I was talking about the company pension scheme. The key difference between the company pension contributions is that they did not come out of taxed income whereas my NI contributions did.[/quote]Rabbie, please forgive me if I have misunderstood or "misremembered" but I really didn't think that NI contributions were taxed? Mentally, trying to remember what pay slips looked like, I thought there was a box for NI contributions and then tax on net pay (after deductions)?Wish you hadn't brought this up as I am getting increasingly confused about the past and, needless to say, even more about the present![/quote]Your right, NI contributions are the first thing taken from your pay before tax and any tax allowances are applied. I don't have time but if you do a bit of googling I am sure you will find it better explained on some or other government website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 [quote user="Quillan"][quote user="sweet 17"] [quote user="Rabbie"]Patf, I am well aware off that. I was not talking about my State pension. I was talking about the company pension scheme. The key difference between the company pension contributions is that they did not come out of taxed income whereas my NI contributions did.[/quote]Rabbie, please forgive me if I have misunderstood or "misremembered" but I really didn't think that NI contributions were taxed? Mentally, trying to remember what pay slips looked like, I thought there was a box for NI contributions and then tax on net pay (after deductions)?Wish you hadn't brought this up as I am getting increasingly confused about the past and, needless to say, even more about the present![/quote]Your right, NI contributions are the first thing taken from your pay before tax and any tax allowances are applied. I don't have time but if you do a bit of googling I am sure you will find it better explained on some or other government website.[/quote]I have just checked in our payroll program. The NI contributions do not affect the pay used to calculate your tax liability. Occupational pension payments do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Thank you, Q, it's good to know that I am not yet totally mentally deficient though I dare say that that time is inexorably getting closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 'olox woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Sorry Rabbie - I should have read the last few pages more carefully.Just trying to get my point in about the OAP being a "benefit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Whether the state pension is called a 'benefit' or a 'welfare payment' or an 'entitlement' does not really alter the situation.The concept of 'National Insurance' being paid by every worker in the country was sold and is sold to the population as:-a. An insurance payment which covers the cost of health care as and when needed, unemployment welfare payments etc.b. An insurance payment which guarantees an income when working income stops on retirement.It matters not whether the NI funds were a Ponzi scheme or were invested or were used as a part of the general tax income of the state.The contract was made between the State and the individual. The individual trusted the State to do the 'right thing' in exchange for their payments. The payments were / are compulsory and the rate of payment is not negotiable. As such the State is morally, if not legally, required to maintain the payments out under the terms agreed.Whilst it is obviously possible for the state to move the goal posts, vary the premiums required and change the payments made from the scheme it does not alter the moral requirements.Still, who expects politicians to have morals ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibault Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I don't think any politician is suggesting that people 'hand back' their state pension. What was suggested was that 'wealthy' pensioners give up the extras such as WFA or not take up the free bus pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 [quote user="Thibault"]I don't think any politician is suggesting that people 'hand back' their state pension. What was suggested was that 'wealthy' pensioners give up the extras such as WFA or not take up the free bus pass.[/quote]"Hello Phil and Liz, fancy seeing you on a number 19" [:D]Remember seeing it put to Alan, sorry Lord Sugar why he should have a bus pass with all his wealth. He barked back that he did not hold one as he had never applied for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekJ Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Perhaps I've missed it but what is the definition of "wealthy" that keeps getting referred to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 It's a sad fact that people are only wealthy when they want to appear so. Another of those examples of the "me first" mentality which keeps coming to the fore when people feel a perceived threat to any part of their income, however it's derived.And I'm not criticising anyone. It's hard to find many people who wouldn't react in this way under similar circumstances. It's a product of the sort of society we've created for ourselves. No use blaming politicians or anyone else, for that matter. Basic human greed is a primal thing. Quite separate and distinct from basic human need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwmcn Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Norman,My wife is waitng for a hip replacement operation. Otherwise...We were offered a mobile home near Pont Aven for £3,000, but the yearly fee was more than we could afford.I'm 72 and my wife is 69.David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted May 1, 2013 Author Share Posted May 1, 2013 [quote user="Thibault"]I don't think any politician is suggesting that people 'hand back' their state pension. What was suggested was that 'wealthy' pensioners give up the extras such as WFA or not take up the free bus pass.[/quote]I agree Thibault, which is why I used 'benefits' in that sense in the title of the thread, and gave exactly the example of WFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]It's a sad fact that people are only wealthy when they want to appear so. Another of those examples of the "me first" mentality which keeps coming to the fore when people feel a perceived threat to any part of their income, however it's derived.And I'm not criticising anyone. It's hard to find many people who wouldn't react in this way under similar circumstances. It's a product of the sort of society we've created for ourselves. No use blaming politicians or anyone else, for that matter. Basic human greed is a primal thing. Quite separate and distinct from basic human need.[/quote]Betty; I normally look to you to add a comment or words of sense to most subjects, well you've just blown that expectation out of the water. If getting what I'm entitled to as they promised is greed; then I'm guilty. You say "don't blame politicians" well if they set up the rules properly as they promise they would when they are begging to get elected, and stopped moving the goal posts when they get it wrong, maybe you'd have a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 [quote user="dwmcn"] After all, this is a forum for an exchange of ideas, or I thought it was. As I said, I don't expect nastiness here or I wouldn't have posted. The language and nastiness on another forum I use would shock most posters here.David [/quote] I find it strange that you admit to using language and nastiness, [Www] I thought you were talking about Dave and Basil, they do seem to have special privileges don't they?[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 [quote user="NickP"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]It's a sad fact that people are only wealthy when they want to appear so. Another of those examples of the "me first" mentality which keeps coming to the fore when people feel a perceived threat to any part of their income, however it's derived.And I'm not criticising anyone. It's hard to find many people who wouldn't react in this way under similar circumstances. It's a product of the sort of society we've created for ourselves. No use blaming politicians or anyone else, for that matter. Basic human greed is a primal thing. Quite separate and distinct from basic human need.[/quote]Betty; I normally look to you to add a comment or words of sense to most subjects, well you've just blown that expectation out of the water. If getting what I'm entitled to as they promised is greed; then I'm guilty. You say "don't blame politicians" well if they set up the rules properly as they promise they would when they are begging to get elected, and stopped moving the goal posts when they get it wrong, maybe you'd have a case. [/quote] NickP: Politicians are only human and like all humans make mistakes. When they make a mistake I expect them to correct that mistake as soon as possible. Perhaps we, the voters, should accept some responsibility for the politicians we elect and look a little more critically at their past record when they are standing for re-election. Betty: Too many politician seem to take a "Do as I say not as I do" attitude to their electors. Perhaps they would be more respected if they practised what they preached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Well, it seems to me that the whole of this is a rather spurious debate as the solutions are different and quite simple: the heating allowance is a necessity and should be added to the OAP so that everyone gets it and those with higher incomes will be taxed on it, the bus pass should be available to all as mobility is not a factor of money but health and bus availability and the TV licence which is hardly generous, should be left alone.People should always claim their entitlements.There are many more important issues to be decided than these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 [quote user="woolybanana"]There are many more important issues to be decided than these.[/quote]Hear, hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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