Better out of the EU?

[Quillan]

Well according to UKIP yes we would be. We pay a massive amount gross per year, month or day, whichever you prefer to be a member and for no benefit. We can trade within the EU just like Norway, Switzerland etc plus we can trade with anyone else, which we already do anyway. I have never believed that trading with the EU from outside of it can work without it costing us one way or another and have pointed out that Norway is effectively a member, paying membership fees just like us but not getting any vote or representation in the EU Council of Ministers. Indeed they are not even allowed to set foot in said place. Likewise part of being a member of the EEA they have to implement EU law just the same way a full member would. Rubbish people have said then gone on to say I didn't have a clue so here is a quote from a man who should know better than any of us as he is the Norwegian Minister for Europe.

“We [Norway] are fully integrated into the EU single market as members of the EEA, but what we don't have is the right to vote on those regulations that are incorporated into our law when they are made by the council of ministers.” - Norway’s minister for Europe Vidar Helgesen

Now then what is just as interesting is the Kippers response when you read their comments which in general has changed from holding them up as a prime example of how the UK could trade with the EU to now being a bunch of fascists (pot calling the kettle black I thought) that we should have nothing to do with. So in my book this is another Ukip myth that has been blown out the water.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/22/norway-urges-uk-dont-leave-eu#comment-47903732

 

 

 

[ebaynut]

But your views as a Jewish person of a mixed race marriage, with gay people in your family ( you often state these facts, so clearly you are very proud of them) would be completely different to a white English straight persons view.

So you will never understand, or would I expect you too. Or would I waste my time trying to explain it to you, as your love of the post delete button when anyone posts anything you disagree with is well known.

[Chancer]

Seems deserved of a deletion to me.

[WJT]

Me too. Delete!

[JandM]

Although we know that mindsets like this still exist, it still comes as a shock to me when I see it expressed so openly and unashamedly. I wouldn't delete the post. It's someone's opinion, no matter how ugly it looks.

[Frederick]

Better out of the EU ?.... Well thats what millions within the EU certainly thought when they decided to move to other countries to find workin the past 10 years or so And still do ,as there seems nothing much on the horizon within it to offer them hope of a better life Certainly if you are under 26 if their unemployment figures are anything to go by ... As for questioning if the UK will suffer or not by freeing itself from its ties with it ?. The EU seems to have a huge number of peoples within it who are more and more speaking out regretting having joined and want to see the whole sorry mess in their eyes torn down and reversed .They seem to be seeking to join political parties to achieve just that . I dont think UKIP supporters or anybody else in the UK need concern themselves much about the EU .There are enough people in other member states who want to tell Brussels and Berlin where the real power is what thay can do with the EU .

[Quillan]

[quote user="ebaynut"]But your views as a Jewish person of a mixed race marriage, with gay people in your family ( you often state these facts, so clearly you are very proud of them) would be completely different to a white English straight persons view. So you will never understand, or would I expect you too. Or would I waste my time trying to explain it to you, as your love of the post delete button when anyone posts anything you disagree with is well known.[/quote]

Well I certainly won't delete this post. It seems when a Kipper is shown absolute proof that their theory has just been thrown out the window all they can come back with is insults. I noticed this tend in several newspapers that carry this article that allowed readers comments. I serously doubt you could argue the point anyway. Judging by the comments here you have not exactly done yourself any favours by posting these comments.

Just so you now and to put the record straight in the 10 years I have been a moderator I have only deleted 7 posts (two of which have been yours for breaking the forums T&C's but some more have been deleted by other moderators) excluding those were not spam or a member had asked to be removed. We (the moderators) have a list all deleted posts, who deleted them, when and why.

[ebaynut]

Seems deserved of a deletion to me.

So you want to delete the post which you disagree with ? Where are all the ‘ Je suis Charlie’ people now????

[woolybanana]

My problem with the post is that it is personal and seemingly vicious.

And then, what happens to people like me, how will we be treated by the poster, my mother being a Banana of the Babanana tribe and my father being a Piesang of the Peach tribe of the Upper Umfolozi plain? They spoke the now extinct Umzimkulu dialect which had the pecularity of having only words for Yes and No and Perhaps. Well, they fought like cat and dog as to whether they should be in the kalabash or out of it, which was their undoing, because they did not see the giant JawJaw snake creeping up on them and they were eaten up. Still, one of them had the burping disease which caused to JawJaw to swell up ans burst in one great big furt which covered the land for forty days and nights until the the midget MooMoo came down the mountain with the tablets which stopped the smell, and they all lived sort of unhappily ever after.

Lesson of this pabable - Bobo knows, I don't.

But ebaynut, please don't be nasty or the great WhooPie cushion in the sky will descend on you and wash you all away.

[Gardengirl]

It should absolutely not be deleted; no comments should be removed, so everyone can read what views are held by others on the forum.

I've not been aware of removal of posts in the past, other than adverts. The moderators seem to be content to allow discussions to take place, regardless of what their own views may be. In my view, Just as it should be.

[woolybanana]

[quote user="gardengirl "]It should absolutely not be deleted; no comments should be removed, so everyone can read what views are held by others on the forum.

I've not been aware of removal of posts in the past, other than adverts. The moderators seem to be content to allow discussions to take place, regardless of what their own views may be.[/quote]

So, gg, will yu settle for 'hardly any', 'few', 'the occasional one or two' or what?

[Rabbie]

I think the ebaysnut's post is offensive and should be removed.

Personal abuse has no place in a forum like this. Although I am neither Jewish nor gay I agree with the point that Q is making. It seems to me that it is better to be in the EU and have some influence than to be outside and subject to the rules without having any influence is having the worst of both worlds. Do UKIP have an ulterior motive in trying to move the UK to this situation?

Norway's current success is not due to either their membership of the EEA or their absence from the EU but is solely because of the sensible way they have managed their oil fields

[Gardengirl]

Sorry, Wooly, I've just popped on to edit my post, didn't see your post until I'd done that. Just dashed off to rescue our lunch!

About of the selection you've put up, I can't subscribe to any of them as I haven't been aware of the removal of posts at all, although I admit to absences from the forum.

[vette]

I think that if the EU reverted back to what it was purported to be in the first place, i.e; a trade agreement, (Common market) then the vast majority of folk would be happy to stay in it.

It's the other bits that have been added on over the years, like the ECHR etc, that gets peoples backs up.

What any Politician says on the matter is irrelevant to me personally as I don't trust any of them. They merely say what they think we want to hear. Just like criminals do!

[lindal1000]

I'm white and straight ebaynut and I am certainly in agreement with Quinlan on this. Your post is rather strange however, as I'm not sure what someone's religion, race or sexuality has to do with their point of view on the EU and UKIP. In fact the only link I can find to whether someone supports UKIP or not, is their IQ.

[Quillan]

[quote user="vette"]It's the other bits that have been added on over the years, like the ECHR etc, that gets peoples backs up.[/quote]

You seem to have made the same error that many make which is that there is a connection between the EU and the ECHR which there is absolutely not. It is true to say that most EU countries, if not all, are signatures to the ECHR agreement however there are countries that have nothing to do with the EU. Take Russia for instance, which is given their stance on locking up those that oppose the current president, gays, same sex marriages etc, who is also a member. It was created to ensure peoples human rights like the Jews who were killed in WW2 are protected. Sadly it has not always worked but it is a step in the right direction. To leave the ECHR would be an even worse error than leaving the EU in my opinion as it leaves you open to abuse by your own government with nowhere to go for protection. Yes of course there are some silly rulings but overall it works for your protection from abuse.

PS Try a search on History of the ECHR, there is loads of sources to look at as to how it came into existance. Winston Churchill was very active in getting it started. 

[idun]

 Q is well aware of my views on the EU. I voted not to go into what now I would rejoice in, 'JUST' a good trading zone/area. When 'I' voted for a near Unitied States of Europe, I do not know, well I do, and that is because I DID NOT,  and I HATE IT AND THE IDEA OF IT, right to my core! Keep the trade, ditch the rest, is how I feel about it.

And I understand Norway, bet they feel right royally screwed by the whole thing, it is a legal protection racket and shameful. Because protection rackets are just that, whether they be 'legal' or not!

[powerdesal]

The 'Common Market' is / was a great idea, I voted for that but a United States of Europe, don't think so!!!

[Frederick]

[quote user="powerdesal"]The 'Common Market' is / was a great idea, I voted for that but a United States of Europe, don't think so!!![/quote]

This is what more and more people in the EU are saying... But now see as heading more towards a United States of Germany.

[Hoddy]

I agree with you Idun. Last time I listened and read as much as I could to all the 'experts' until I realised that what they were writing was only opinion.

I did not want a United States of Europe and it seemed inevitable to me that we'd end up with that, so I voted 'no' with my heart not my head.

I still feel the same.

[PaulT]

Going back to Ebaynut, I have seen one of his / her posts that was subsequently deleted and so it should have been.

[YCCMB]

I think one was deleted that was addressed at me. Pity I missed it.

[nomoss]

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                                                    DELETE....DELETE....DELETE.

[Judith]

Or rather ... exterminate. ...exterminate .. exterminate .... surely a much better idea??

[andyh4]

Well it appears that ebaynut has succeeded in his objective. Three pages of debate almost none of which (including this) is about the subject matter.

What a great way to distract the masses.

So sorry ebaynut but back on topic.

Q as your OP rightly points out, leaving the EU and joining the EEA to maintain our trade links is the worst of both worlds - all of the bureaucracy with no ability to influence the decisions.

As for those that want a return to a simple trading union, well I think you miss a lot of what the more harmonised EU brings you.

I would be the first to admit that the EU is far from perfect and on occasion make some monumental C-up decisions that few of the citizens would support. However they do do a great deal which never somehow seems to get the public attention.

Just for a couple of examples:

Any pensioners out there? Thanks to the EU, you get the same pension as someone back home and not a reduced or frozen pension - as the UK does for pensioners in its close relations within the Commonwealth like Australia.

Anyone been to a doctor or hospital? Yes those reciprocal rights you enjoy are due to EU rules. Try being ill in the USA.

Anyone eaten anything recently? The UK imports over 50% of its foodstuffs and the quality and protection against adulteration comes from EU rules (and on this I will concede that the UK could have similar rules on its own - but then again maybe not. I am sure no one wants things like melamine adulterated baby milk or pesticide contaminated fruit).

In fact in many areas of your everyday life your safety, protection and quality of life are thanks to the EU - but of course we only hear of straight bananas (sorry Wooly, I don't know your sexual orientation) - and this was a made up story by a UK paper.

Exit from the EU does not mean a change in any of these, but equally it means that the protection afforded by the EU is removed and the guarantee of your rights is removed.