Better out of the EU?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Thibault"]Yes, I know. I just wondered if the people on here who seem to be Ukip supporters knew what their policies were without having to look them up. Some of the people I know who intend to vote for them, have no idea what their policies are apart from the ones I listed. In other words, it is the anti-EU stance which is attracting some voters, coupled with the fact that since the Lib Dems have been tainted by actually being in government, they are no longer the Protest Vote Party and to some extent Ukip has picked up that particular baton.[/quote]

It is a cleverly written document and notice it is not called a manifesto just policies, means they can change and not justify the changes as they go along by saying it was not actually in their manifesto just points to debate upon. If you read it there really is something for everyone but with the things you like there are loads of other things you may not like, more so than the other parties. There are also some assumptions in there as well especially in re-joining The World Trade Organisation but then we already are members and have been since 1995. If he thinks that will let him trade with the EU in the same way as being a member of the EEA he has another think coming. America is a member and it is trying to negotiate a trading agreement so clearly being a member does not give you a right to trade with the EU and not have import duty levied on your goods. Actually the whole script on trading with the EU blows out the idea the UK can trade like Norway because he has no intention of joining the EEA therefore puting Norway up as an example is completely invalid.

[Théière]

[quote user="Thibault"]Yes, I know. I just wondered if the people on here who seem to be Ukip supporters knew what their policies were without having to look them up.

Some of the people I know who intend to vote for them, have no idea what their policies are apart from the ones I listed. In other words, it is the anti-EU stance which is attracting some voters, coupled with the fact that since the Lib Dems have been tainted by actually being in government, they are no longer the Protest Vote Party and to some extent Ukip has picked up that particular baton.[/quote]

Don't you think the same applies to the other party supporters as well?  Then we have the manifesto, for what it's worth.  I am sure I remember one of the parties promising a referendum and they have back pedaled every since but this year if they win they promise this time blah blah.

 

[ebaynut]

Regarding UKIP’s manifesto, Nigel has said all along that he knows he will never win the election, I know he wont, everyone knows he wont. But, he may just get enough votes to hold some sort of power after May 6th.

So whatever he says is policy is quite unimportant, he wont be the prime minister, and the only condition that he has for going along with whoever wins is a referendum. ( if hopefully he is in that position)

I see no point in having a great NHS service if anyone from around the world can access it. It is a NATIONAL heath service, not an international health service.

I see the NHS as a reward, if you like for the working men and women, who died and fought in WW2, they did not get much else out of it, the government as always had the spoils of war, so in some small way, I have always seen this as something of value to the people, without who, Churchill and co would most likely have been executed had the game ended differently.

So when I have to queue behind people who are not from my country to be seen at the hospital, I get pi55ed, when all the seats in the waiting room are taken, some by people who cant even speak English, I get pi55ed.

Dave promised us immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year it was 300,000. Higher than when he came to power. Then we get a load of sorry excuses for why this happened.

He is not to be trusted, he wont ever hold a referendum on the EU, its a lie, he knows it, and we know it. That is something I hate , public figures who lie.

So for me immigration is the number one issue, and without the kippers, it would not be spoken of.

The reason Dave does not want a TV live election debate is because he knows Nigel will show him up for what he is. Dave will of course be able to handle all the other leaders, but not Nigel, he just has to ask Nick about taking him on in a debate!

I am not happy when I have to pay for a prescription for my pets, to enable me to buy something as mundane as flea treatment online ( as its a quarter of the price as the vet) in case I ‘misuse’ the product, then see images on my TV, of a Muslim treading on a sheep, then slitting its throat, so it bleeds to death, as that is the way his God says it should be done. But I guess this is OK, as after all its EU law.

There is no point to the indigenous people of the UK having great hospitals, great education and a great place to live, if our government will not protect us from people, who should not be allowed in our country.

I pay protection money to the government in the form of taxes ( if I did not pay they would send the ‘boys’ round) but they lack the guts to protect us from people who live by different rules and ethics from this country's.

So as Dave and Ed, now don't even want to talk about immigration, as they know this gives Nigel air time, I know they have no plans to change anything.

Regarding all the claims made about Nigel's ‘wrong doings’ if they had anything on him that would stick, we would know, all these things are easily explained that he is ‘accused of’ Do you know the cost of running an office, its not in rent where the money goes, but all the other things needed.

There is no point having a great home with nice things in, if one leaves the keys in the door, for every, Tom, Dick and Mohammed to be able to enter and take whatever they wish.

[Théière]

[quote user="ebaynut"]

So when I have to queue behind people who are not from my country to be seen at the hospital, I get pi55ed, when all the seats in the waiting room are taken, some by people who cant even speak English, I get pi55ed.

Do you up and walk out when the people offering to cure you and in some cases are much better at it than people from your country?

That is something I hate , public figures who lie.

Who doesn't and I have always believed we should be able to hold them to account in a court of law. People like Jeremy Hunt with a very tough job to do to try and reduce the wastage in the NHS but out and out lies about closing maternity units will not increase mortality when the Doctors are gagged because they have the proof the mortality rates increased after closure.  Then he speaks of protecting whistle blowers?

So for me immigration is the number one issue, and without the kippers, it would not be spoken of.

That's the only true part of your xenophobic post. Do you have any part of you in France? do you own in France? do you holiday in France?

[/quote]

[lindal1000]

When you are in the queue for your hospital treatment how do you know that those on front of you have not contributed as much if not more than you? How would you judge who was entitled or not? If it was on what you'd paid in, there would be an awful lot of indigenous population who wouldn't be entitled. I'm not sure Nigel has any more answers to any of these questions than any other party. The policies of some sort of apartheid or 'send them all home' are only held by the likes of the BNP, a party that Nigel distances himself from. I think if I wanted to make a protest vote I'd be better off voting for The Pub Landlord.

[Quillan]

Given his (Farrage) comments about both the Tories and LibDems who do you see him making a deal with? With his total distrust abd disgust of both of them I can't imagine he would do a deal with them as that really would be hypocritical.

Britain fought Hitler so we could all be free not for the NHS. The term National Health Service was first used in 1910 and a 'working party' was set up in 1913 and the first NHS system was set up in London under the LCC as an experiment to see if it would really work in 1930. By the start of WW2 all of London hospitals etc were run as a NHS. The interruption of the war stopped it from being rolled out nationally until 1948. The system of paying in (what we call National Insurance) was created by Lloyd George in 1911. What I am trying to say is that the idea of the NHS and how it would work was thought up before the war but not rolled out till after the war because of the war.

In part I agree with who should be able to use the NHS free of charge. Strange how with regards to EU migrants there is already legislation in place that can be adopted by each member state if it wished. France is a typical example, if you don't pay in or you don't have private insurance you can't use it. People who have not paid into the UK system should already be charged but nobody seems bothered to collect the money. Where I disagree is that anyone paying in by paying tax and NI should have access to the system regardless of if they are indigenous or not. It is well documented that the woes of the NHS is not down to any one singular group or practice but many with immigrants pretty low down the list.

'Cameron' being scared or 'Farrage' when it comes to the televised debates is all smoke and mirrors. As the leader of the DUP said the other day in PMQ's and Cameron agreed why are they still left out. After all last time I looked NI was still part of the UK. Bearing in mind these debates are planned across the BBC, ITV and Sky it is more to do with TV ratings than politics. I would rather see each debate simultaneously broadcast across all channels rather than turn it into a media circus. Whilst there should be a national debate there should also be debates aimed at each individual part of the UK i.e. Wales, Scotland, England and NI because there are unique political groups to each of these countries. I think Cameron and anyone else who says if you have a debate you have to have all the parties involved even if they only have one MP is not only correct but logical.

As far as immigrants are concerned I noticed in this mornings press that around a third is quoted as coming from the EU. Nobody can deny that these current figures are the highest for ten years but what I do find interesting is that some groups will believe this but not other statistics on other issues from the same institution that produces them. I have found the core statistics to be correct but it is the way political parties spin them for their own use objectionable but that politics for you and it won't stop. What will be funny of course is next PMQ's when I am sure Miliband will bring it up which will be rather hypocritical of the man. By the way only 23,572 were asylam seekers and the bigest increase was down to students from which the UK economy benifits.

( http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/august-2014/index.html ) -  read that then look at the Migration Watch website to see how they "interpret" the figures.

Re Pets, it is the same in France re prescriptions although I order through my local chemist without a problem nor prescription. However I could not help notice that you specifically mentioned the slaughter of animals by Muslims which is identical by the way to Jews for Kosher meat. There were reasons why animals were killed this way to do primarily with health but under the disguise of religion. In this modern day there is no need in Europe for this method to be used. I don't eat Kosher meat because I don't like the way the animal is killed. But then I like a bacon sandwich. The reason both Muslims and Jews don't eat pork again goes back a thousand odd years and is really to do with health. Pigs ate rubbish including human waste and thus were viewed as being dirty and desease carriers.

My uncle was turned away in the US by customs because he had not paid a parking ticket on a previous visit. He managed to explain that somebody must of removed it, paid the ticket and court costs and was then allowed in. France has the right to stop anyone with a criminal record from entering even if they are from within the EU. Seems to me that once this EU police force gets up and running properly data on convictions, outstanding fines etc can be shared and a lot more could then be done to turn away criminals when they attempt to enter the UK much in the same way as the US can. Not being in the schengen area we retain our border agency and the problem as far as I can see lays with them and nobody else.

As to Nigels 'wrong doings' well lets be honest there has been some dodgy donations to all the parties however he does get a lot of 'expenses' money from the EU and I think it rather hypocritical that he takes it from something he despises and many others see it that way as well. Also you are not allowed to use this money for political gain yet he has admitted in the past that he has used the money to finance his party.

I can't understand how you consider that you Taxes are "protection money".

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]Pigs ate rubbish including human waste and thus were viewed as being dirty and desease carriers.

So do chickens.

As to Nigels 'wrong doings' well lets be honest there has been some dodgy donations to all the parties however he does get a lot of 'expenses' money from the EU and I think it rather hypocritical that he takes it from something he despises and many others see it that way as well. Also you are not allowed to use this money for political gain yet he has admitted in the past that he has used the money to finance his party.

MEP's don't have to pay tax either when they are on EU business, or claim to be.

[/quote]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"]Pigs ate rubbish including human waste and thus were viewed as being dirty and desease carriers.
[/quote]
So do chickens.

[/quote]

I know, stupid isn't it.

[Quillan]

Another policy of UKIP that I disagree with is exiting from ECHR. This was one of Churchills pet projects towards the end of the war and afterwards. It is there to protect every man, woman and child. Yes at times I wonder at some of their rulings like giving prisoners voting rights (the first thing that comes to mind) but we must not forget its prime purpose is to protect us. Without the ECHR our government can effectively do anything to us and there is nowhere for us to go. The prime reason for some peoples dislike of it is really down to Blair. It was he, under the guidance of Mrs Blair QC, you linked UK legislation automatically to ECHR legislation where as before that we could pick and choose which bits we wanted. That however did not give the UK the right to ignore their rulings on individuals. I don't have a problem repealing Blairs law but leaving the EHCR would be a massive mistake and in itself be an infringement of our human rights.

The other problem which I wish people would make clear is that the ECHR is totally and utterly separate from the EU and indeed has members from outside the EU. It does however suit some people to lead others to believe they are one and the same.

[Théière]

Scratching my head, I seem to remember suggestions by the cons to do similar under some flimsy guise to also get out of the ECHR?

[ebaynut]

Theiere wrote,

So when I have to queue behind people who are not from my country to be seen at the hospital, I get pi55ed, when all the seats in the waiting room are taken, some by people who can’t even speak English, I get pi55ed.

Do you up and walk out when the people offering to cure you and in some cases are much better at it than people from your country?

Have done in the past, and if I was able to, would in the future. Of course, not just walk out during the consultation, but just went elsewhere for treatment afterwards. I was lucky in that it was not a serious issue, and appreciate that your own may have been.

Our main Hospital is in Cambridge, so there is less chance of this occurring here than in Lewisham I guess. I fear all the ‘positive discrimination’ that is about these days, and do question if some of those promoted are there because of their ability, or race?

That is something I hate , public figures who lie.

Who doesn't and I have always believed we should be able to hold them to account in a court of law. People like Jeremy Hunt with a very tough job to do to try and reduce the wastage in the NHS but out and out lies about closing maternity units will not increase mortality when the Doctors are gagged because they have the proof the mortality rates increased after closure. Then he speaks of protecting whistle blowers?

Congratulation on winning this one, I have a friend who lives in Court hill Rd, Lewisham, so have heard of the going on which happened there.

So for me immigration is the number one issue, and without the kippers, it would not be spoken of.

That's the only true part of your xenophobic post. Do you have any part of you in France? do you own in France? do you holiday in France?

The only part?? So everything else is wrong then I guess in YHO.

As to my interest in France, well we holiday there every year or so, I have friends who have a holiday home in the Charente. France is a beautiful country, for the most part. Nearly did live there, but the change in the heath rules in 2007, meant it would never be.

Looking back now, best thing that happened, for us anyway. The drastic fall in house values in France and the complete opposite in the UK, the fall of the £ to euro, means we would have taken a large hit. Of course eight years ago the NHS was nowhere near as good as we find it now, (and that is not because of the Conservatives either, these things were put in place by Labour) I guess two things labour done correctly then, spending on the NHS and not joining the euro. Still even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[Rabbie]

I am proud of my country especially because we don't turn away people who need medical care from the hospital. I believe it is everyone's duty to help those who need it. I am assured by a friend who works for the NHS that they could not provide the service they do without immigrant workers at all levels.

When you listen to Nigel Farage, he seems to be hedging his bets on a ban on immigration. I think that if  UKIP holds the balance of power after the election many of those who voted for it will be disappointed.

Hopefully there will be significant reforms of the EU. There are many over the whole of the EU that realise that it is far from perfect and needs to be changed. But to leave the EU without a clear strategy would be a disaster. UKIP and other Euro-sceptics owe it to the electorate to spell out exactly what they would do if the UK leaves the EU

[NickP]

Why is it that the pro EU mob; when they  jump up and down about immigration always come out with the old chestnut "the NHS would collapse without immigrant workers". Well the Australian health service is full of immigrants, but the Aussie regulations only allow in those who have something to offer to the country, and no one accuses the Australians of being racist in this respect. I'm thankfull to all the wonderful people including immigrants who work in the NHS, but don't  forget; lots of the immigrant NHS workers are only in the UK to improve and practice their skills and return home after a period of time, which I think is a fair exchange as we get staff and they get great facilities to improve their knowledge and work skills. Why is it that those not wanting unlimited immigration from people who offer nothing in exchange are considered racist by the PC brigade?

[Quillan]

[quote user="ebaynut"]Our main Hospital is in Cambridge, so there is less chance of this occurring here than in Lewisham I guess. I fear all the ‘positive discrimination’ that is about these days, and do question if some of those promoted are there because of their ability, or race? .....

 

As to my interest in France, well we holiday there every year or so, I have friends who have a holiday home in the Charente. France is a beautiful country, for the most part. Nearly did live there, but the change in the heath rules in 2007, meant it would never be. Looking back now, best thing that happened, for us anyway. The drastic fall in house values in France and the complete opposite in the UK, the fall of the £ to euro, means we would have taken a large hit. Of course eight years ago the NHS was nowhere near as good as we find it now, (and that is not because of the Conservatives either, these things were put in place by Labour) I guess two things labour done correctly then, spending on the NHS and not joining the euro. Still even a stopped clock is right twice a day.[/quote]

The nurses and doctors etc are there not because of race but because there are simply not enough so they have to be imported. I have six Pilipino nurses in my house in Docklands, all bought in to work at Newham General because they can't get the staff from within the present UK system. The rent on the house is paid by Newham Housing Association.

The UK house prices collapsed in the UK in 2008/9 and took a few years to come back. The house prices in Spain also collapsed but look at the prices and how quick they are starting to go up now. These things happen and France is not unique. Because Sterling collapsed against the Euro up until a couple of months ago it would have made no difference if you sold your French house as the exchange rate would have been much better for taking your money back to the UK. Indeed if you sold at the right time you would have shown a healthy profit. That said Sterling still has a way to go before it gets to where it should be (somewhere between 1.45 and 1.5).

I forgot to add that the reason you couldn't come because of the changes in healthcare rules in France is down to EU legislation which they decided to impliment as has other EU countries. Tony Blair refused to add this to UK legislation because it thought it ws an infringment of peoples human right to refuse or make them pay for healthcare.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]Why is it that the pro EU mob; when they  jump up and down about immigration always come out with the old chestnut "the NHS would collapse without immigrant workers". Well the Australian health service is full of immigrants, but the Aussie regulations only allow in those who have something to offer to the country, and no one accuses the Australians of being racist in this respect. I'm thankfull to all the wonderful people including immigrants who work in the NHS, but don't  forget; lots of the immigrant NHS workers are only in the UK to improve and practice their skills and return home after a period of time, which I think is a fair exchange as we get staff and they get great facilities to improve their knowledge and work skills. Why is it that those not wanting unlimited immigration from people who offer nothing in exchange are considered racist by the PC brigade?
[/quote]

Firstly we don't produce enough doctors and nurses so we have to 'import' them. What is amazing is how politicians can say "will will put another x thousand nurses and y thousand doctors into the NHS" as if they grow on trees. Have a look at how long it takes to train nurses and doctors on the NHS website, years. As university students not only to they have to pay tuition fees but I heard this morning that conviently their salary starts at the point were they also have to pay them back. So what they are really saying is they are going to 'import' even more.

Many of the UK nurses and doctors in Australia have gone there for work experience and many are there on visas. There are also those that have emigrated there.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="NickP"]Why is it that the pro EU mob; when they  jump up and down about immigration always come out with the old chestnut "the NHS would collapse without immigrant workers". Well the Australian health service is full of immigrants, but the Aussie regulations only allow in those who have something to offer to the country, and no one accuses the Australians of being racist in this respect. I'm thankfull to all the wonderful people including immigrants who work in the NHS, but don't  forget; lots of the immigrant NHS workers are only in the UK to improve and practice their skills and return home after a period of time, which I think is a fair exchange as we get staff and they get great facilities to improve their knowledge and work skills. Why is it that those not wanting unlimited immigration from people who offer nothing in exchange are considered racist by the PC brigade?
[/quote] Interesting...only the other week an item on the London BBC news showed a group (I think overall more than 100) of Australian paramedics have been wooed to the NHS as there's a massive shortage. Ironically, this item was broadcast at the same time as a daytime TV series on the BBC showing that the air ambulance/paramedic/hospital staff in and around Sydney and elsewhere in NSW are predominantly Brits. Meanwhile, it may have escaped your attention, but the UK has had a points-based immigration system similar to that of Australia since 2008 (introduced by Labour)

[Quillan]

Funny enough there is some program on TV called " New Wanted Down in Australia" or something like that and one of a couple was a nurse and was told that whilst her skills were tranferable and she could get around £20k more there just wasn't any jobs these days, seems the are over subscribed.

[NickP]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]  Meanwhile, it may have escaped your attention, but the UK has had a points-based immigration system similar to that of Australia since 2008 (introduced by Labour)[/quote]

It hasn't escaped my attention at all, but as you well know that system doesn't work for Europe, and really that's what this discussion is about or maybe I've got it wrong, if so I do apologize [Www]

[YCCMB]

Well, as you were drawing parallels with Australia, and suggesting that "people" didn't want immigrants coming here with nothing to offer (sic) I could only assume that you were referring to the wider pool of migrants. Unless there has been some quite significant change, the NHS can't employ nurses from other EU countries straight off the plane/boat/bus, a bit like France not employing UK nationals with UK qualifications in many professions. It involves a very lengthy process of proving equivalency of your qualifications and proficiency in English. Probably why quite a number of carers for the elderly, working for minimum wage, are fully qualified and experience nurses, often with many years under their belts, but the NHS cant employ them unless they jump through the requisite hoops. Similar to the Romanian PhD qualified physicist I taught, who couldn't get a job teaching maths until she'd taken GCSE and got a grade A-C........so she was working as a teaching assistant...

[Quillan]

What I found interesting if not amusing is that the likes of Migration Watch and Ukip are banging on about broken promises, Tory lies concerning mass EU migration waving the latest ONS report on immigration in everyones faces. The problem is only 1/3 of the migrants in the report are actually from the EU. They might also like to read it further to see that for instance there are less than 3,000 Romanian migrants claiming any form of benefit in the UK. Of course that sort goes against the grain for some who believe these migrants from the EU are all claiming this that and the other and in particular, as Farrage pointed out the Romanians so what to do, say the stats are wrong in which case their whole argument goes out of the window or claim they are right in which case EU immigrants are not the problem and indeed rather than be a problem it would seem they are claiming very little so must either be students or working. In the case of the latter they are therefore paying their way and have the same rights as a UK citizen, rather like a UK citizen has the same rights as the indigenous population when living in another EU country.

But you see it is not the immigrants that are causing long waiting queues in hospitals. According to the NHS for the year 2012/13 (April 1st to March 31st) 57.2% of the 21.7M people attending A&E, minor injury units and walk in centres were aged 65 or over. The age range for under 65's was from 1 to 65 years. The percentage of people of working age (18 to 65) attending A&E, minor injury units and walk in centres was 16.3%. So what this means is only 16.3% of the population that use A&E etc is actually contributing to it.

What all this adds up to is that we need more people paying into the system to be able just to keep it as it is. Now according to ONS, thats the people who have given the immigration figures, the 65+ population is expanding on average by 13 to 15% per year to a peak at 2060. It is therefore clear that the cost of being a member of the EU based on the NET figures and even cancelling HS2 won't even be enough to fund the NHS now and in the future let alone all the other things the money is supposed to be spent on.

[Rabbie]

Q, why confuse the argument with the facts. It is so much more interesting to discuss the issue based on perceptions and prejudices. The facts only confuse the issue.

[Hoddy]

I often wonder why we don't train enough of our own doctors and nurses. While I was still teaching we always had many more pupils applying for medical places than were able to get in.

[lindal1000]

Where I used to work they increased the number of nursing places to an all time high, but actually couldn't recruit enough suitable candidates and when the admission criteria were lowered then the drop out rate increased, I don't know about medicine, but in nursing they do train enough, except that many give up after a few years due to working conditions, or the fact that it is very difficult to work as a nurse with the shiftwork when you have a young family. Add in the high cost of accommodation in London and for most nurses it's only viable as a short term option. When I trained in my allied health profession I shared a flat with 4 other people. One practiced for three years and then gave up, one had to give up for health reasons, one worked for a few years as a clinician and then became an NHS manager, one worked for many years but then left 20 years before retirement and I became a teacher and then retired early. When I worked in London we'd never have survived without the endless supply of Australians on their overseas experience.

[YCCMB]

I am still waiting for the long overdue explanation about how "immigrants" can be stealing our jobs whilst simultaneously living off benefits in quite such a comprehensive way.

I am still firmly of the opinion that if all immigrants were sent "home" immediately, the economy would be in a far more parlous state than it already is, unemployment would remain much the same and the number of people on benefits would hardly show a dent..

[Hoddy]

Interesting about nurses Linda. I was mainly thinking about former ambitious clever pupils who couldn't get into medical school. I am prompted to ask because one of my former pupils has just become a GP at my local practice. He is planning to be a heart specialist eventually and we fell to chatting about his contemporaries.

Neither of us was too embarrassed about the examination although the same can't be said for a male colleague who had a prostate examination from a former pupil.

It occurred to me at the time that people might think he's an immigrant (he's a Sikh) but he was in fact born and educated in this country.

Hoddy