Chancer Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]ISome of you asserted that French people reacted with a smile, we would be a nation of gros déguelasses ready to harrass any women, the most widespread reaction would be to wonder if the young lady was not lesbian, and to sort of support the man, because harrassing or assaulting women would be a sign of good health for a man ...So please, un peu de mesure.... and let's stop making generalizations !!!![/quote]Twas I that reported the lesbienne quip, I said more than one (2 to be precise) had said it which was two people too many for my taste, I dont think anyone, certainly not myself, intimated that it was the most widespread reaction.As you know Frenchie I consider the populace around me to be somewhat special, I would be very sad to think that it was a widespread view in France.I will be seeing a group of middle/working class women tomorrow evening, it will be interesting to solicit their views while they are away from their partners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="Frenchie"]For the moment, nothing has been proved, so we should all be careful about what we write and stop spitting at him.[/quote]Aside from the charges which have been brought against him in this instance, the fact remains that, by all accounts, DSK appears to have made a habit of lavishing his affections (let's be poetic about it) on women, sometimes coming a bit strong according to several people.By all accounts, his habit has been a secret de Polichinelle within the political and journalistic world.By all accounts, no one seems to have persuaded him that this habit may have been unacceptable to 50% of voters.[/quote]Now that he is in the current position, all sorts of " stories " are being told... Bizarre.......He is known for being a Casanova, cheating on his wife, but this is their private life, and has nothing to do with a crime, an attempted rape as he is suspected to have done.Ne mélangeons pas tout .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Frenchie"] ISome of you asserted that French people reacted with a smile, we would be a nation of gros déguelasses ready to harrass any women, the most widespread reaction would be to wonder if the young lady was not lesbian, and to sort of support the man, because harrassing or assaulting women would be a sign of good health for a man ...So please, un peu de mesure.... and let's stop making generalizations !!!![/quote]Twas I that reported the lesbienne quip, I said more than one (2 to be precise) had said it which was two people too many for my taste, I dont think anyone, certainly not myself, intimated that it was the most widespread reaction.As you know Frenchie I consider the populace around me to be somewhat special, I would be very sad to think that it was a widespread view in France.I will be seeing a group of middle/working class women tomorrow evening, it will be interesting to solicit their views while they are away from their partners.[/quote]I know you started this, but some people after you suggested it was a common view on things from most French people, which upset me, really,.. ' for instance from 5-element . Quote " those quips only show where much of the French mindset is at.. The notion that a man overwhelmed by his lust is paying tribute to the woman who is the object of his attention, honouring her, and that she should be thankful.... " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 A bit of humour: a teacher at school, finished the conversation by saying " he wouldn't be in trouble if he had tried with me, I would have said YES ! " ( She finds DSK charming.)And before anyone jumps to any conclusions, she's got a british father ....... [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]A bit of humour: a teacher at school, finished the conversation by saying " he wouldn't be in trouble if he had tried with me, I would have said YES ! " ( She finds DSK charming.)And before anyone jumps to any conclusions, she's got a british father ....... [;-)] [/quote]Interesting, guess she likes flings with married men. Definitely not my type. His past alone would keep me miles away from him even if he wasn't married, not to mention his age. I'm not keen on rich, powerful men OR women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 It was just humour.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Frenchie"] ISome of you asserted that French people reacted with a smile, we would be a nation of gros déguelasses ready to harrass any women, the most widespread reaction would be to wonder if the young lady was not lesbian, and to sort of support the man, because harrassing or assaulting women would be a sign of good health for a man ...So please, un peu de mesure.... and let's stop making generalizations !!!![/quote]Twas I that reported the lesbienne quip, I said more than one (2 to be precise) had said it which was two people too many for my taste, I dont think anyone, certainly not myself, intimated that it was the most widespread reaction.As you know Frenchie I consider the populace around me to be somewhat special, I would be very sad to think that it was a widespread view in France.I will be seeing a group of middle/working class women tomorrow evening, it will be interesting to solicit their views while they are away from their partners.[/quote]I know you started this, but some people after you suggested it was a common view on things from most French people, which upset me, really,.. ' for instance from 5-element . Quote " those quips only show where much of the French mindset is at.. The notion that a man overwhelmed by his lust is paying tribute to the woman who is the object of his attention, honouring her, and that she should be thankful.... " [/quote] And 5E is french and is entitled to have a 'french' view on this isn't she. My comments are based on what french women friends have told me in the past, including their descriptive language. I don't understand the woman who would have said, yes. I don't find it even vaguely amusing, I saw the list of charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 We all have different friends and people around us, let's just not generalize about the attitude of " The French" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Sorry, Frenchie, I didn't find it funny either. Perhaps she didn't read the charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Ah why not, have you any idea how much my good french friends would taquin me about my englishness, generalise, you bet they did. We stereotype as it is based on a general truth and it includes the good, the bad and the ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just not the same kind of humour maybe, or not in the context.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="idun"]Ah why not, have you any idea how much my good french friends would taquin me about my englishness, generalise, you bet they did. We stereotype as it is based on a general truth and it includes the good, the bad and the ugly.[/quote]We'll agree to disagree then . What general truth are you talking about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Maybe some French people are able to take a lighter view than those of you on here seem to because they just cannot believe those charges.So far there is no proof of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Absolutely Christine, you got the gist of it . [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just the generalities about any stereotyping, there is always some truth is what others perceive about any nationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 So the French cheat on their wives, are the best lovers, English food is cr@p , etc..Sorry, not my style to say such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Anyway, as Christine said , no proof so far, I'm not trying to defend the man, just trying to be fair and wait . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Oh my ! I haven't convicted the man. I did read the charges and I believe them to be serious enough not to find joking or laughing about them possible. True or untrue, too serious to make light of it IMO. Certainly couldn't put myself in the alleged victim's place, jokingly or not.I'll go to sleep now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]I know you started this, but some people after you suggested it was a common view on things from most French people, which upset me, really,.. ' for instance from 5-element . Quote " those quips only show where much of the French mindset is at.. The notion that a man overwhelmed by his lust is paying tribute to the woman who is the object of his attention, honouring her, and that she should be thankful.... " [/quote]I am very sorry Frenchie, if my "generalisation" has upset you, but I stand by what I wrote, not only it has very much been my personal experience, much of it, I still see around me: there is a lot of leeway for men who are pushy, with "mains baladeuses" etc. with women here in France, in a way that I encountered far less in my 30+ years in England. And yes I do think this is specific to French culture, just like I think that both men and women's reactions in France are far more indulgent towards such behaviour. All this is, by the way, for people (men and women) of the older generation - 60's or so, i.e. DSK's generation - it seems far less prevalent amongst younger people. Unfortunately, to use Idun's colourful term, there are plenty of "vieux gros dégueulasses", who get away with plenty of unsolicited pawing and fumbling - and this is often glossed over, and seen as a sign of a healthy vitality!and here is an article which better illustrates what I have just been trying to say:http://oumma.com/Dominique-Strauss-Kahn-n-est-pasAs far as DSK is concerned, it is absolutely right to remind that he has not been convicted. A mega smear campaign had begun against him, as he knew it would (having been threatened with "le feu nucléaire" if he announced his candidature for the next elections, that is undoubtedly true. However much sympathy one has for any woman victim of attempted rape, even if the accusations are proved to be the truth, some things don't seem quite right. Rape is a very serious matter, but then DSK did not actually rape the woman, he is alleged to have tried to force her to have sex.... He did not kill her, he did not torture her. He is no serial killer, he is no terrorist... The judicial system in the US is very different from the French or British ones,OK . But to see him treated like a full-blown criminal, paraded in front of all the TV cameras, sent to the notoriously violent Rikens Island prison, this is all a bit odd, is it all seems part of a big show, trying to make an exemple, or what? This article seems quite a good summary:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-france-reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyA Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Yes I found the Guardian article fascinating. Whatever the truth turns out to be I have to say that watching the French TV coverage I have found the lofty dismissal of the allegations by some senior party figures pretty offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-the-censored Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Ditto EmilyA! and not just the senior party figures - the reporters seem to be in group denial!Anyway - here in the Ariège things are going swimmingly well (!)- as far as the '5 stages of grief' are concerned, we may have moved on slightly from stage 1 (denial!). We're somewhere between 'indignance' and anger (stage 2).This is most simply demonstrated by the 'it doesn't matter, it will help to strengthen Marine Le Pen's campaign' attitude which is now prevailing here in the Pyrénées.Better start packing then......Simon :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyA Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Indeed. Am also a bit gobsmacked that people seem to think it is OK to be a "seducteur" in the twenty-first century. I thought a relationship was something entered into freely and willingly, not by seduction. Or is there a linguistic nuance that I am not getting here? I am also particularly uncomfortable about the notion of seduction if one of the parties is much older or in a position of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote user="EmilyA"]Whatever the truth turns out to be I have to say that watching the French TV coverage I have found the lofty dismissal of the allegations by some senior party figures pretty offensive.[/quote]Well said, EmilyA.I too have been left flabbergasted by the attitude of French political leaders and commentators, who in the vast majority, do not seem to find it unacceptable for a potential presidential candidate to behave in the way they know he has behaved up to now:A senior politician who trades interviews for potential sexual favours (The Times today).His friends and allies say that "this does not resemble the man I know" (cela ne ressemble pas l'home que je connais). They are undoubtedly referring to the rape allegations, yet they know of his propensity to "lavish his attentions" on women and seem to find nothing wrong with that.How seriously would we take a senior female politician who would flirt heavily and who would get handsy with male reporters? Quite.A journalist is quoted in a newspaper article as saying that her interview with DSK "didn't go beyond the standard pick-up attempt" (la drague classique).A man, a senior politician who has hinted at being a presidential candidate, believes there's nothing wrong with making passes at female journalists during interviews.And there, just there, is the crux of the problem for me.The behaviour is acknowledged, understood, accepted as par for the course.Regardless of the outcome, this has brought into sharp focus the acceptance by a wide majority of the political class that what this kind of behaviour is OK. I can only hope there will some reflection on their part.I don't care if DSK is found guilty or innocent of the charges brought against him.Someone somewhere may have set him up and exploited the rich seam he himself had opened. If that is the case, DSK can only blame himself for giving them the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote user="5-element"] to see him treated like a full-blown criminal, paraded in front of all the TV cameras, sent to the notoriously violent Rikens Island prison, this is all a bit odd, is it all seems part of a big show, trying to make an exemple, or what? [/quote]No matter how serious the charges, and some scandalous reports, that is all there is at the moment; for me, it is an important part of my mind set to believe in the justice system even in America with it's overtones, an important part of which is that someone is innocent until proven otherwise. The degree of concern to any woman that she is raped, is perhaps nearly as much as to an innocent man who is accused, named and shamed before any kind of trial (Legal, media or forum). Subsequently if proven innocent his honour is unlikely to be restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I seem to remember that JFK was a bit of a sexual predator and that didn't stop him. [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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