DSK, can we believe this?

[Chancer]

[quote user="Hoddy"]

I'm also unhappy about these women journalists who are now coming out of the woodwork and shouting 'me too'. If he was that bad and if it's true that the culture allows it, why didn't they just refuse to interview him. [/quote]

A senior politician who trades interviews for potential sexual favours

Because they (probably) were at the time playing the game to their advantage, maybe even more so than he?

Now that they cannot get an interview with him why not join the feeding frenzy?

When it all blows over no doubt some will interview again about hs ordeal on the same old terms.

Frenchie I agree 100% with all you have written since last night, and that before it [:D]

[idun]

I agree with Rabbie.

It is those charges that are giving me nightmares. Just sounded like do it in any orifice. And she may have agreed to 'something' but when the scratching starts, as has been mentioned, then that says that whatever was agreed was not happening. It is all very bad.

I don't care what people do in private, couples will or won't be experimental, or as a friend complained recently, can't get their other half to do it at all. People will have affairs, that is not something that I could or would live with, but if some can live with it, well good for them, their choice.  Professional sex workers will make choices as to what they will and won't do and charge accordingly. And that little lot is by consent, and that is fine.

 

Re the  'not the man I know'

Well, there are wife beaters, husband beaters, child abusers, rapists out there. None have funny shaped heads, or act other than like everyone else in public, we could never know. The rapist I know looks a very pleasant individual, quite good looking in fact, acts very pleasantly in 'normal' life.

 

 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Clair"]I disagree, Frenchie.

I cannot simply pick and choose those qualities which are suitable in a political person to get the job done and ignore his other, less salubrious, traits. Which ones are you talking about? His affairs? or his alleged rape? 
The man is a whole and how he conducts himself during the exercise of his functions cannot be dissociated from the job he aspires to be elected for. This is where the French are different!! ( Clair, you ve been away too long   ! [:)]  )  Private matters are private matters.  ( his affairs don't prove he can't do a good job. This is a MORAL judgement.

( Of course, if he is proved guilty of a rape, that's a crime, and so, he shouldn't be able to be a political leader.)


."[/quote]

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Hoddy"]

I'm also unhappy about these women journalists who are now coming out of the woodwork and shouting 'me too'. If he was that bad and if it's true that the culture allows it, why didn't they just refuse to interview him. [/quote]

A senior politician who trades interviews for potential sexual favours

Because they (probably) were at the time playing the game to their advantage, maybe even more so than he?

Now that they cannot get an interview with him why not join the feeding frenzy?

When it all blows over no doubt some will interview again about hs ordeal on the same old terms.

Frenchie I agree 100% with all you have written since last night, and that before it [:D]

[/quote] Merci mon ami !! AH, ça fait du bien de voir qu'au moins une personne comprend mon point de vue ! [:)][kiss] 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]Spot on Clair ! It's like saying that you are 2 different people - one at work, one at home - total rubbish! It's the same bloke! Simon :-)[/quote]

I didn't say what you think is total rubbish , so please, I'd like you to watch your language, we can express different points of view and yet, respect  people. [:)]

 

[idun]

If the Grand Jury send him for trial has anyone any idea as to when that will happen?

So if he is going to trial  I hope that they would not leave him in Rikers until the trial.  That would be unreasonable if they did.

Still  IF he decided to flee, where on earth would he go?

[Clair]

Frenchie, you have not replied to my question:

If he was verbally abusive towards her (his wife) and she accepted it, would you think it OK?

It is a moral judgement indeed. Are lax morals acceptable?

( Clair, you ve been away too long   !   )

Frenchie, maybe you have not be out of the country long enough to look at it from outside  [:D]

Let's agree to disagree on this point...

[Patf]

"IF he is proved guilty of rape......."

I don't know what the law is in USA, but in the UK it's still very difficult to prove. Proving non-consent is the stumbling block. (Unless there's proof of accompanying violence.)

[Russethouse]

This is a MORAL judgement.

But don't politicians make moral judgements and choices, all the time ? Goes with the territory doesn't it ?

[MrCanary]

Christine animal - please read my posts properly - it is not me who is suggesting he is as guilty as hell, hence the (?)...

I am merely using irony to reflect much of the public opinion...

(As you will see in other posts, I too am 100% for 'innocent until proven guilty')

[Frenchie]

Well, this is where we will agree to disagree.

I guess I'm in the French mainstream , no moral judgement about his affairs from me .

Do you think Sarko always had the right behaviour? when he said " casse toi pauvre con... " at the salon de l agriculture. [blink] for instance..

Yet , still in power. If we follow your logics, he shouldn't be , because talking like this in public is not acceptable from a President... 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Clair"]Frenchie, you have not replied to my question:
If he was verbally abusive towards her (his wife) and she accepted it, would you think it OK?
  It would be none of my business. If she liked that sort of man.. who am I to say " you shouldn't accept this ." ?

I know people who like being with machos....


[/quote]

[5-element]

I do not agree with that "loving women" means you feel entitled to force your attentions on them. This goes for someone in power, as well as the man or woman in the street.

Someone who "loves women"  is passionate with a consenting woman, (it could be many consenting women) but it is also someone who respects women.

Back to DSK, I, too, am uncomfortable with the women who are now coming out of the woodwork to complain about his behaviour. They didn't have to wait, surely?

I think this must be a terribly difficult time for any unconditional Socialist supporter, having their loyalty stretched to the limit.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Frenchie"]I do ! But you might end up handcuffed on la place publique in Poitiers !!  [:D][/quote]

Or l'hopital with exhaustion.

.

[Clair]

[quote user="Frenchie"][quote user="Clair"]I cannot simply pick and choose those qualities which are suitable in a political person to get the job done and ignore his other, less salubrious, traits. Which ones are you talking about? His affairs? or his alleged rape? [/quote][/quote]

I am NOT referring to his charges, but to his behaviour up to now.

DSK is not described as a harmless flirt. He is described as a man who uses his position and makes sexual advances to journalists during interviews.

The fact that this has been widely known in the political world but hardly ever mentioned makes it look sleazy. Even if only one female journalist has been propositioned during an interview, it's wrong.

[quote user="Frenchie"]This is a MORAL judgement.

[/quote]

Yes. Definitely yes. and I cannot close my eyes and pretend it does not matter.

And yes, Sarko was completely in the wrong to say that.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="5-element"]

Back to DSK, I, too, am uncomfortable with the women who are now coming out of the woodwork to complain about his behaviour. They didn't have to wait, surely?

[/quote]

I do not know the nationalities of these women, but judging by the comments made on this forum and in the media and political circles, it would have taken a very brave woman to stand up and make a single complaint.

[Frenchie]

Too bad this article is in French, but some of you will understand it. It helps understand my point of view.

Oh, it is an extract from l'Express.

 

"Il y a eu la construction politique d'une exception française à partir de la fin des années 1980", déclare à Reuters Eric Fassin, sociologue à l'Ecole normale supérieure, qui estime que cette attitude est une réaction à la médiatisation de scandales sexuels au même moment aux Etats-Unis.

"A ce moment-là, on a vu se développer tout un discours en France pour dire : 'on ne mélange pas le public et le privé'", ajoute-t-il. "C'est à un certain égard ce qui est en train de se terminer avec l'affaire Strauss-Kahn."

Les journalistes français ont presque toujours affiché un refus d'évoquer la vie privée de leurs hommes politiques, contrairement à ce qui se passe dans les pays anglo-saxons.

François Mitterrand a pu mener pendant presque deux septennats une double vie en ayant un enfant illégitime dont l'existence était un secret de polichinelle qui n'a été révélé que quand le président l'a voulu.

Les infidélités de Jacques Chirac étaient également connues de la plupart des journalistes et son épouse Bernadette n'en a pas fait mystère dans un livre publié après son départ de l'Elysée. Mais les journaux n'en ont pas parlé.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn avait quant à lui été inquiété en 2008 pour avoir entretenu une relation extra-conjugale avec une économiste hongroise du FMI, qui a finalement passé l'éponge non sans juger son comportement "inapproprié".

Journaliste de Libération auprès des institutions européennes, Jean Quatremer, avait publié dès 2007, lors de la nomination de l'ancien ministre de l'Economie à Washington, un article sur son "rapport aux femmes", qui risquait selon lui de lui valoir des ennuis dans une Amérique puritaine.

Cet article, paru sur son blog, n'avait pas été publié dans l'édition "papier" de Libération.

Depuis l'éclatement de l'affaire Strauss-Kahn, les journaux français, Le Monde en tête mercredi, ne se privent plus d'aborder son "désir effréné de séduire les femmes", sans prendre parti dans la bataille judiciaire en cours aux Etats-Unis au nom de la présomption d'innocence.

"L'exception française" doit beaucoup au rapport très proche qu'entretiennent nombre de journalistes français avec les hommes politiques : tutoiement, dîners, vacances, voire, dans certains cas, mariage, comme Dominique Straus-Kahn avec Anne Sinclair, qui fut une star de la puissante chaîne TF1.

"Il y a une proximité entre le monde des journalistes et le monde politique", estime Eric Fassin, pour qui c'est au nom de la "République qu'on ne touche pas à la vie privée".

Jean-Louis Missika, longtemps titulaire de la chaire de sociologie des médias à Sciences-Po, souligne que les pratiques des médias français sont très différentes de celles en vigueur dans les pays anglo-saxons, où les comportements sexuels des hommes politiques sont étudiés à la loupe.

"On est vraiment dans un décalage d'univers qui provoque des effets de choc, des effets de sidération", explique-t-il tout en pensant lui aussi que l'affaire Strauss-Kahn "peut faire évoluer le comportement des journalistes par rapport à ces questions de couverture de la vie privée des hommes politiques".

Pour Christophe Deloire, coauteur en 2006 d'un livre sur le caractère aphrodisiaque du pouvoir (Sexus Politicus) qui consacrait un chapitre entier à Dominique Strauss-Kahn, les médias français doivent désormais sortir du bois, sous peine de perdre toute crédibilité auprès de leurs clients.

"Si demain les Français, lecteurs ou électeurs, nous accusent une nouvelle fois d'avoir gardé un secret entre soi, d'avoir accepté chez les puissants ce que nous refusons aux humbles, que leur répondrons-nous ?", demande-t-il dans une tribune publiée par Le Monde daté de mardi.

Pour l'instant, la classe politique, à l'exception du Front national, fait bloc en invoquant la présomption d'innocence et refuse l'idée selon laquelle il y aurait eu une "omerta".

"Quand j'entends de tels propos sur le fait qu'il y aurait une omerta je tombe des nues", souligne François Sauvadet, le président du groupe Nouveau Centre à l'Assemblée nationale.

Mais les conséquences médiatiques de l'affaire Strauss-Kahn pourraient entraîner le balancier dans l'autre direction.

"J'ai du mal à croire qu'on ne va pas se mettre à parler d'autres personnalités", souligne Eric Fassin. "Ça risque de ne pas être forcément sympathique. Après en avoir fait trop peu, on risque d'en faire trop."

[Chancer]

"L'exception française" doit beaucoup au rapport très proche qu'entretiennent nombre de journalistes français avec les hommes politiques : tutoiement, dîners, vacances, voire, dans certains cas, mariage, comme Dominique Straus-Kahn avec Anne Sinclair, qui fut une star de la puissante chaîne TF1.

That is what I have long suspected, judging by the comportement of the journalistes from France3 and TF1 that I have encountered here fishing for background info, they are well trained and well equipped to do their job.

[Clair]

I don't care that DSK, Chirac, Mitterrand... had affairs.

The affairs are not the problem for me.

I care that he is described as having taken advantage of his position to make sexual advances to women, that it was widely know and that it is accepted as normal.

[EmilyA]

I don't get the impression that these women are "just coming out of the woodwork"; I think it is more that the media and the public are taking notice of what happened before.

[Clair]

[quote user="EmilyA"]I don't get the impression that these women are "just coming out of the woodwork"; I think it is more that the media and the public are taking notice of what happened before.[/quote]

Again, well said EmilyA.

In The Times Online today (I have a 30-day trial), they describe how DSK's team of "Four Musketeers" image-minders would work to defuse stories.

The 2007 Jean Quattremer blog post, which I linked to in a previous post, describing how DSK's behaviour towards women would sometimes verge on harrassement, is said to have provoked a call by one of the "Musketeers", who was unable to persuade Quattremer to remove his post.

Strangely enough, the post was never mentioned by any newspaper at the time, not even by Libération (the paper he still works for).

So the reason these stories have not been made more public until now is that the newspapers would not touch them.

[EmilyA]

This may have been posted before (apologies if it has).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-french-media

Interesting article, but I can't seem to make the link work

(It should work now... Clair)

[Clair]

[quote user="EmilyA"]This may have been posted before (apologies if it has).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-french-media

Interesting article, but I can't seem to make the link work.[/quote]

"DSK's behaviour towards women is talked about as if it wasn't harassment, but a game of seduction."

"The only real problem with Strauss-Kahn is his relationship to women.

Too forceful, he often borders on harassment. It's a flaw known about in

the media, but nobody is talking about it openly (we are in France)."

[Clair]

[quote user="EmilyA"]This may have been posted before (apologies if it has).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-french-media

[/quote]

This is based on this (in French) by the same French journalist:

http://www.lesnouvellesnews.fr/index.php/chroniques-articles-section/chroniques/1127-affaire-dsk-et-lomerta-sur-les-violences-sexuelles

(translation of sorts)

[Lori]

I too do not care what this man does in his own bedroom - or the bedrooms/bathrooms, etc. of willing participants.  Unfortunately, he seems to have so much history with the issue, many people (including myself) are finding it hard to ignore.  I'm trying to stick to the charges at hand.  It is hard for me to believe this maid was a willing participant.  Do you know how easy it is to get a willing participant in New York City??????   EASY - and with his money, it would have been no problem what-so-ever and it doesn't seem he would have been worried about his reputation anyway.  He seems to revel in it.

I don't think most politicians (male or female) have much of any morals anymore.  Sad but that is my opinion.

We all know the press love to dig up any nasty or questionable headline subject that will make them money.  They are clearly having a field day with this one.

As far as American laws go, for me, it would be something I would have considered prior to even thinking of doing anything that might be construed as illegal.  I'm sure Mr. Strauss-Kahn is aware of American law, he does have a base there.  When I lived in Saudi Arabia, I knew what I could and couldn't do.  He knows too.  But, for some people, who have gotten away with certain behavior for so long, these things don't cross their minds. 

It seems interesting to me that his attorney initially said he was not in the hotel at the time of the assault.  He said that rather emphatically too.  Now, they've come out to say that she was a willing participant in a sex encounter.  I thought he wasn't there. 

It is hard to believe them when they start out with one alibi, drop it and move to another.