NormanH Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 He had shown the caricatures that caused the Charlie Hebdo attacks to his class..A clear account of what is known so far (in French, but Google translate works..) *https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/professeur-decapite-le-point-sur-l-enquete-et-le-profil-du-terroriste-20201017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alittlebitfrench Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 France has become a very very dangerous place to live in. It gets worse every year. Yesterday's shocking event is just another 'shocking' event. You kinda get used to things things. It is true.There will be another next week or the week after. If you no what I mean.The Dordogne's won't get that. Nor will the 'place in sun's' desperately escaping Brexit. They should read the news.The repercussions of yesterdays event will be.....interesting. Especially for us with kids at school. But also politically.Where do we go from here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share Posted October 17, 2020 If you said 'ex-pats' rather than "Dordogne's" I would be inclined to agree with you.There are plenty of places as dangerous and many more so than France, but few so deceptive towards those who don't even try to scratch the surface.Even with such help as Google translate there are many people who don't read French newpapers, and whenever I post a thread about French issues it gets scant interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alittlebitfrench Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 You know what I mean Norman.But you know, a line was drawn yesterday. Not just murdering but 'decapitating' a teacher outside a school. That is just.....I don't know. The norm now in France ?I have kids in school. I have a 2 year old. What France is he going to grow up in ?How would the UK react to a teacher being decapitated outside a school ?So far I have just heard noise on the news in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 I'm very interested Norman. It is just that I find it hard to post about such horrible things. What can I say?Very very sad. And, I have to agree that it is not the last of such acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Maybe that teacher should have thought about what happened after Charlie Hebdo published insulting cartoons about Mahomet before he showed the cartoons to a class of Moslem kids. I don't think it was very clever, but he must have been aware of what he was doing - or really stupid.There are many devout Moslems in France, not fanatics, who are really hurt and upset by such things, so it's not that remarkable that someone felt he was pushed a bit too far.Maybe Catholic people here should consider their own country's attitude a few centuries ago when they sallied forth on the Crusades to kill every Moslem they could find, without the slightest provocation.Yes, it was a long time ago, but believe me, that has not been forgotten................I sometimes wonder what would happen if someone published cartoons of Christ engaged in some sort of pornographic activity. There are enough "religious" right wing nutters here and in other countries to produce a similar result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alittlebitfrench Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 What about the behaviour of the Nazis Nomoss ? The world has moved on from that and that was 60 years ago.BTW....he offered all Muslim children to leave the classroom beforehand if they felt they would be offended by the lesson.Is this really about religion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehaut Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 NormanH wrotethere are many people who don't read French newspapers, and whenever I post a thread about French issues it gets scant interest.I subscribe to a local French newspaper and read it on line most days, as well as Le Monde feeds I get on my phone. It does surprise me when I try to discuss articles I have read with other French people in our residence how few of them read newspapers, on line or in paper.Increasingly, older people tell me that the don't even watch much of the news now as it is so depressing. A spiral that the news services have put us in. Could they correct it if they concentrated more on up beat stuff, or does that not sell newspapers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 [quote user="Lori"]I'm very interested Norman. It is just that I find it hard to post about such horrible things. What can I say?[/quote]That's how I feel, Lori. Such a terrible, wanton thing - an action carried out based on misinformation and lies (from what I've read) but I can find nothing to say about it which is worth someone's time reading. As I've proved.e2a: however, I do not feel that France is becoming more dangerous - at least, not in isolation. The world is becoming more randomly dangerous (iyswIm) and France has its problems but so does the UK, Germany, the Netherlands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 People scared to say what they are thinking for fear of similar reprisals.And afraid to say anything against religion in general due to the ridiculous bullet-proof protection given to it internationally.Thousands of years of civilisation and so-called advancement but still dictated to by superstitious codswallop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Huge Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 I saw some of the original Charlie Hebdo cartoons. One showed a Muslim women praying in the mosque, her skirt was up at the back exposing her buttocks. Behind her, a man was leering at her naked backside.I worked in an Islamic country for eight years, i had many conversations about religion with Muslims. I made it clear that I did not share their beliefs. But I never mocked their beliefs. What is the point of mocking and sneering at another person's religion? Because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should exercise that right regardless. The irony is that laicitƩ itself has become a religion in France, its believers as inflexible as the most fundamentalist Muslim or Christian. P.S. I don't believe in beheading people who disagree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TancrĆØde Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 How incredibly righteous of you.The beliefs of Catholics (of which I am NOT one) have been mocked and mocked and mocked, again and again and again.And they have learned to adjust to this with good humour and resilience.The civilized world is doing no more than ask that the effing Isl*ms should learn the same degree of tolerance and accommodation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 and a massacre or two....https://www.britannica.com/event/Massacre-at-BeziersI don't care which tooth fairy people wish to believe in, but their belief doesn't give them the right to kill or torture me. I have the right to disagree and the liberty to express that opinion,but as beliefs are deeply felt I shouldn't mock them either.I do agree that laicity is in danger of becoming as fundamentalist as a belief system as some versions of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 [quote user="NormanH"]and a massacre or two....https://www.britannica.com/event/Massacre-at-BeziersI don't care which tooth fairy people wish to believe in, but their belief doesn't give them the right to kill or torture me. I have the right to disagree and the liberty to express that opinion,but as beliefs are deeply felt I shouldn't mock them either.I do agree that laicity is in danger of becoming as fundamentalist as a belief system as some versions of religion.[/quote]Is it not!Not to mention the invasions of "The Holy Land", euphemistically called "Crusades", which I mentioned earlier, when the poor gubbers being invaded had no idea what they were supposed to have done wrong.Idiots - they were Christ-killers, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 While in no way condoning what happened I have to ask myself what was the point of this lesson.When I trained to be a teacher we were taught that the starting point for any lesson was to be able to clearly identify your aims. So what was the point of this lesson and how did he hope to achieve them by inviting the pupils it was perhaps particularly aimed at to leave the room ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Wasnāt he supposed to have been teaching abput freedom of speech/ expression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 You can't do that if you've suggested that some of the class leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 23, 2020 Author Share Posted October 23, 2020 Yes, but as I said above" I have the right to disagree and the liberty to express that opinion, but as beliefs are deeply felt I shouldn't mock them either."I don't see the point of showing those particular images, even though the acts they have provoked have been so disproportionate.It is perfectly possible to teach/talk about freedom of speech in other ways.A problem in France now is that a whole section of the population who are still smarting from having been expelled from Algeria in 1962 are seizing on this to justify their gut hatred for the winning side in that conflict.Here is the speech made by the Maire of BĆ©ziers (himself a 'pied noir' whose wife is a Catholic fundamentalist and our "Ć©lue" ) The battle for the PrĆ©sidentielles 2022is well and truly underway!""Mesdames, Messieurs,Mes chers compatriotes,Avant toute chose, je vous propose dāobserver une minute de silence en mĆ©moire de Samuel Paty et en soutien, en respect et en amitiĆ© pour sa famille et pour ses proches.(Minute de silence)La tĆŖte tranchĆ©e. Un professeur dāhistoire a eu la tĆŖte tranchĆ©e, en France, en 2020, parce quāil a fait son travail. Parce quāil a expliquĆ© Ć ses Ć©lĆØves ce quāest la libertĆ© dāexpression. La tĆŖte tranchĆ©e par un islamiste tchĆ©tchĆØne qui bĆ©nĆ©ficiait du statut de rĆ©fugiĆ©, cāest-Ć -dire de la protection de la France !StupĆ©faits, nous lāavons tous Ć©tĆ©, vous comme moi, devant cette nouvelle, devant ce mot terrible, une Ā« dĆ©capitation Ā», surgie Ć la une de lāactualitĆ©, vendredi dernier. Cela, Ć quelques kilomĆØtres de Paris, lāhorreur Ć la sortie des classes. Vendredi dernier, nous avons franchi un nouveau cap, une plongĆ©e dans lāobscurantisme. Vendredi dernier, un enseignant est devenu un martyr de la France. Jāai envie de vous dire que rien ne sera plus comme avant, que rien ne doit plus ĆŖtre comme avant. Que nous devons nous rĆ©veiller ! Quāil est vital pour notre pays que nous nous rĆ©veillions. Mais, comme vous, jāai un peu de mĆ©moire. Comme vous, je me souviens quāon a Ć©gorgĆ© un prĆŖtre dans son Ć©glise et quāalors, dĆ©jĆ , nous avions eu les mĆŖmes mots, les mĆŖmes indignations. Et puis, rien. Nous continuons Ć avancer, tels des somnambules, vers un prĆ©cipice. Aujourdāhui, en France, vivent sur notre sol des barbares, des monstres, les pires des ayatollahs. Des dizaines sont dĆ©jĆ passĆ©s Ć lāacte. Dāautres poursuivront cette macabre entreprise, au nom dāAllah. Depuis plus de 40 ans, nous sommes anesthĆ©siĆ©s par lāaveuglement, les mensonges, les lĆ¢chetĆ©s. Sous nos yeux, des enfants sont massacrĆ©s Ć bout portant dans leur Ć©cole parce que juifs. Des policiers sont attaquĆ©s Ć longueur dāannĆ©e, deux dāentre eux suppliciĆ©s devant leur propre fils. Des journalistes sont exĆ©cutĆ©s pour avoir dessinĆ© Mahomet. Des jeunes filles sont Ć©gorgĆ©es dans une gare. Des familles sont Ć©crasĆ©es alors quāelles assistaient au feu dāartifice du 14 juillet. Toute une jeunesse est fauchĆ©e pendant un concert de rock. Un gendarme dĆ©cide de se sacrifier pour sauver ses prochains. Les meilleurs de nos militaires sont abattus aux confins des montagnes afghanes et au Sahel... Des centaines de vies anĆ©anties, des centaines de familles dĆ©truites. Des annĆ©es dāhorreur, de drames, de larmes. Contre cet enfer, que fait notre pays ? Un carnaval de bougies, de peluches, de fleurs, de dessins, de belles et solennelles dĆ©clarations, de chartes de la laĆÆcitĆ© et des Ā« valeurs de la RĆ©publique Ā» Ć¢nonnĆ©es jusquāĆ lāĆ©tourdissement. Face Ć cette pantomime hallucinĆ©e, ils sont des milliers Ć avoir dāores et dĆ©jĆ dĆ©clarĆ© la guerre Ć notre pays, Ć notre nation, Ć notre civilisation. Un Ćtat dans lāĆtat ! Ils sont des centaines de milliers Ć dire quāils ne veulent pas de notre mode de vie. ArrĆŖtons dāĆŖtre Ć©tonnĆ©s. Il suffit de les Ć©couter, de lire les enquĆŖtes les concernant, de ne plus fermer les yeux sur leur menace grandissante : 74 % des FranƧais musulmans de moins de 25 ans ā les trois quarts - affirment placer lāislam avant la RĆ©publique ! Petit Ć petit, jour aprĆØs jour, le totalitarisme islamiste impose sa loi, ses rĆØgles et ses interdits, jalousement protĆ©gĆ©s par ceux qui imposent, qui nous imposentā¦ le vivre-ensemble. Vivre-ensemble, la tĆŖte sĆ©parĆ©e du corps ? Vivre-ensemble quand, dĆ©jĆ , 40 % des enseignants reconnaissent quāils sāautocensurent sur certains sujets face Ć leurs Ć©lĆØves. On nāa pas de mal Ć imaginer lesquelsā¦Tout cela, je le refuse. Je dis non. Je ne veux pas me soumettre !Aujourdāhui, ici, jāaccuse, oui jāaccuse ceux qui, au nom de la tolĆ©rance, cĆØdent et lĆ¢chent sur tout : le voile islamique, les activitĆ©s non-mixtes, les repas de substitution, les mosquĆ©es radicales. Jāaccuse ceux qui, prĆ©textant le risque de Ā« diviser les FranƧais Ā» - commode alibi pour tous les renoncements -, refusent de prendre les mesures qui sāimposent.Jāaccuse ces Ć©lites qui se compromettent avec le sĆ©paratisme qui infeste les rues de nos villes, les terrasses de nos cafĆ©s, les commerces communautaires. Jāaccuse ceux qui disent Ā« Je suis Charlie maisā¦ Ā». Mais quoi ? Jāaccuse ceux qui, sur les plateaux tĆ©lĆ© ou dans les partis politiques, refusent tout dĆ©bat, toute discussion sur lāislam, sur lāimmigration, sur le mode de vie et sur notre identitĆ© au nom du Ā« pas dāamalgame Ā». Jāaccuse ceux des musulmans de France qui excusent les terroristes ou qui refusent de condamner leur barbarie. Jāaccuse ceux qui hurlent au racisme systĆ©mique et Ć lāislamophobie chaque fois que lāon fait mine de rĆ©sister aux fatwas des fous de Dieu. Jāaccuse ces Ć©lus collabos qui consentent Ć sacrifier la France, prĆŖts Ć toutes les compromissions pour gagner quelques voix lors dāune Ć©lection. Jāaccuse les lĆ¢ches qui ferment les yeux devant lāĆ©vidence, qui refusent de dire la rĆ©alitĆ© et dāutiliser les bons mots, les vrais mots. Jāaccuse tous ces politiciens et ces Ć©ditorialistes qui, depuis plus de 40 ans, se mentent et nous mentent.Jāaccuse tous ceux qui choisissent la lĆ¢chetĆ© et la soumission au dĆ©triment du courage et de la rĆ©sistance. Jāaccuse ceux qui laissent la France devenir un enfer, une terre de dĆ©capitation. Jāappelle nos dirigeants Ć ne rien cĆ©der sur la libertĆ© dāexpression. Sur cette libertĆ© de la presse que, durant plus de 20 ans Ć la tĆŖte de Reporters sans frontiĆØres, jāai dĆ©fendue avec mes confrĆØres en France comme partout dans le monde. Aujourdāhui, ces caricatures sont devenues lāĆ©tendard de nos libertĆ©s. Jāappelle nos dirigeants Ć stopper lāimmigration de masse, vĆ©ritable terreau de lāislamisme politique, Ć dĆ©clarer la guerre ā la vraie ā au salafisme, Ć expulser la totalitĆ© des imams radicaux, Ć interdire le voile dans lāensemble de lāespace public. Cette barbarie ne sāarrĆŖtera pas. Il faut lui dĆ©clarer la guerre. Et on ne fait pas la guerre Ć coups de marches blanches et de pancartes. Lāheure nāest plus Ć lāindignation, lāheure est au combat.Vive la libertĆ© dāexpression ! Vive la libertĆ© ! Vive la France combattante !"Robert MĆ©nard, maire de BĆ©ziers, PrĆ©sident de la l'AgglomĆ©ration BĆ©ziers-MĆ©diterranĆ©eHommage Ć Samuel Paty - Lundi 19 octobre 2020" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I found that article most interesting Norman because it illustrated very well the difference between moslems in France who originated in North Africa and moslems in the UK who, until recently, originated in Pakistan.I used to work in a school where over 40% of our pupils came from ethnic minority backgrounds and I feel that we were frequently let down by our political masters. Any suggestion that there were problems was met by with the accusation that all teachers were racist. This was in spite of the fact that the top performing group in our school was Sikh girls, closely followed by Sikh boys. When I contacted our political masters because one of our pupils was being sent āhomeā for a forced marriage I was told that it was not the local authorityās policy to interfere in matters of cultural difference. Both the UK and France need to do something about it. This does not mean as one of our former pupils wrote ācultural acceptance does not mean accepting the unacceptableā. I think it does mean that we have to discuss these issues very carefully and with respect and I still donāt see how one can even begin to do that if half the class is missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Surely it is because in Islam certain subjects cannot be discussed, are set in stone. Any discussion or attempted discussion by an outsider, a kafeer is automatically seen as an attack. This is constantly reinforced by the elders, the mosque, the (secret) Koranic schools and by members of the community who we would call fanatics. Check out the Spanish Inquisition, that famously open and elite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 23, 2020 Author Share Posted October 23, 2020 But there are evangelical groups in the USA of whom one could say much the same...The problem starts when belief starts to think that those with other ideas are 'wicked' rather than misguided or wrong.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 All fundamentalists cannot be reasoned with. There are interesting debates throughout French tv on this very subject.As expected nowadays, there are also debates on all the social networks. Many have pointed out that the purpose of the illustrations was to provide a starting point for criticism and argument.I have always been against silencing certain viewpoints. I remember writing, at the time of the Irish "troubles", to the powers that be, to allow tv viewers and radio listeners to hear Jerry Adams' voice and not use actors. Let whoever it is have their say and let us hear the totality of it, the voice, the writing the drawings. What I loathe even more than these crackpots are the "authorities" who seem to think we are incapable of forming our own opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehaut Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Its the same problem with any group that has strong, fixed ideas. They cannot afford any deviation from their twisted beliefs as it would be the first crack in the wall that will eventually bring the whole false edifice down.Most of these organisations are run to benefit men and to oppress women, they don't want that to change either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 What a happy coincidence; just when I had read up on this thread last night, I found this a sentence from "France in the New Century" by John Ardagh:The State promotes an integration which the public then obstructs, the public stresses cultural differences which the State refuses to recognise.So there you have it in a nutshell. This is not a problem that is going to go away. Ardagh's book came out in 1999 and we have already been living in the "new century" for 20 years......same old, same old[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith-aka-Judith Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Mint, I have yet to read that book, yes, it is on my bookshelves, but form my relatively limited I wil accept knowledge of the French, I agree wiht this. In the end, change is never liked, integration is never liked (lots of examples in history there), and fundamentalism in any form is an unacceptable way of trying to keep control, but which is never addressed for fear of reprisal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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