No hand luggage on UK flights ...............

[Quillan]

The Bank of England have announced today that it has frozen the assets of 19 people currently detained under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. If you require further information you can use the following link.:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2006/082.htm

Regretfully they all appear to be UK citizens and were living in the east end of London. There is also a report on the BBC website.

[opas]

[quote user="Miki"]

 

Juswundrin, come on, we both know what would have happened...................

[/quote]

I have an interest, what would have happened? 

 

Back on topic, I personaly have no objection to not taking hand luggage on the grounds of security. I have taken all sorts of stuff in my cabin bag before now and thought that if had a mind to could have done untold damage. ie Bungie cord.

[Juswundrin]

"Juswundrin – I am not sure where you are coming from only to say he didn’t so it’s emotive"

I'm sure it is... whatever you mean.

I'm not banging any drums for Outcast by any stretch, but if someone with his track record had said "If they dont like it, send 'em back where they come from" he'd have been called a racist, or thereabouts. Whereas a moderat&r saying it obviously makes it OK.

"If they don't like it here" "We are far to 'politically correct', we have no free speech in the UK"

I'm confused, I thought you lived in France?

Mary, out of interest, would you still be saying that murdering an innocent man was the right thing if JCdeM had been white? English?

Haven't you found that being an immigrant yourself has changed your perspective ?

[Dick Smith]

These are hard times.

Chris and others have made statements which, in easier times, would seem intolerant.

The difference between them and some others we have known is that they are reacting to events which they find outrageous and an affront to everything they believe in. Not simply spouting some racist rubbish.

I think Chris is wrong (in what he suggests, not in his outrage), but cut him some slack. This is just talk, talk can help. Let's try to keep posturing out of it. Let's try to see that we are all outraged, offended and alarmed together. We need to find some common ground, not argue amongst ourselves.

And - it's NOTHING AT ALL to do with Jean Charles de Menezes...

[Quillan]

[quote user="Juswundrin"]"Juswundrin – I am not sure where you are coming from only to say he didn’t so it’s emotive" I'm sure it is... whatever you mean. I'm not banging any drums for Outcast by any stretch, but if someone with his track record had said "If they dont like it, send 'em back where they come from" he'd have been called a racist, or thereabouts. Whereas a moderat&r saying it obviously makes it OK. "If they don't like it here" "We are far to 'politically correct', we have no free speech in the UK" I'm confused, I thought you lived in France? Mary, out of interest, would you still be saying that murdering an innocent man was the right thing if JCdeM had been white? English? Haven't you found that being an immigrant yourself has changed your perspective ?[/quote]

You really need to go back and read what I said, you seem to have done exactly what I was talking about joining race and religion together and making assumption that being a Muslim means you come from a particular ethnic background which is not the case. As to 'them' I am talking about terrorists, are they a race, who are you talking about?

You are right I do live in France so perhaps I should say you and not me.

As to the guy on the tube there is no case to answer the policemen who shot him honestly believed he was a suicide bomber and unless you personally can prove otherwise you have to take their word for it. It's sad that they got it wrong but if they got it right they would have been hero's. Calling it murder is just stupid, law has been applied and it says you are wrong.

Added.

Crossed posts there Dick, you are right. I really hate these terrorists but I hate more the people (the terrorist leaders) who sit several thousand miles away in relative comfort and get others to do their dirty work for them. The thought that they are prepared to kill innocent people, husbands, wives, men and women and of course innocent children, well my contempt of them goes beyond words. Perhaps killing them is a bit strong but I still would have no hesitation in throwing them out of the country whoever they are.

There are a lot of people out there that think the same as me (about what to do with terrorists) but just won’t say anything because they feel they will be labelled as something or another so they stay quiet. Does saying that the 19 who have had their assets frozen appear to have Asian and/or Arabic names make it racist, I don’t think it does. This is however an area in which we have to be very careful of joining these two (race and religion) things together as some may come from a totally different racial backgrounds (I am thinking of Steven Demetre Georgiou who became Yusuf Islam but was known to many as the British born musician Cat Stevens whose family was I believe Greek). I think, as I have tried to do, that we should look at them as just plain terrorists, nothing more, nothing less and leave the race issue out.

As for John Prescot well I am sorry but I didn’t like his speech and in particular the way he put it over. I thought it was very condescending towards the public, either that or he is just a bad public speaker. Judge for your self if you have not already seen it on the evening news it’s available on the BBC website.

[Gardian]

Dick ...........

I don't always agree with what you say (probably rarely!), but in this I think that you have summed it up perfectly.

As I said to our son today (paraphrasing someone infinitely more literate than me), "I may not agree with what the next man or woman says, but I defend their right to say it".  Sadly, not all of the rest of the world sees it that way.   

[Miki]

Dick,

I do believe Jean Charles Menezes was brought up from an earlier posting, so was relevant if only to be answered.

Another time you would be, as some of us and fighting a different

corner but in respect of what I have been told, I will cut you some

slack and leave it at that. But debate is what you and I have fought

for on here for a long time, another time it would be called

debating,discussing or whatever, today you call it arguing. For my

part, I see another side but as I said, respect in other matters in our

own real lives take priority at this time..................

[BJSLIV]

As for John Prescot.........

It looks like a man reading out a carefully honed statement , the result of much  Civil Service and political effort. It very carefully ticks every box that needs to be ticked (JP chairing committees, thanks to colleagues, TB is involved, Muslims to be consulted, praise for the police and the public etc etc) and it does it in as few words as possible.

Unfortunately it comes over rather strangely as he required to put it over in a "Statesmanlike" manner in a style which is far removed from his normal manner.

Its a hopeless position to be in . What more could he say?  But if he had said nothing at all, the trash papers would have been back on his case..... Where is JP? etc etc 

[Renaud]

Diva Star said

"Even Enoch Powell at the height of his raving, didn't see a day like yesterday coming"!

Actually he did, he started his 'rivers of blood' speech by saying "those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" refering to the Ancient Greek concept of hubris.

"Mad' actually is a bad translation, "proud" is the more normal one.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

And it should be remembered that nothing actually happened. No-one was

killed, no planes blown up. From that point of view, if a plot has been

foilled, then it was a rather good day.

Electrical equipment was forbidden in hold baggage after Lockabie.

There is a pressing logic in forbidding all but the bear minimum in

hand baggage for good from now on. If the tools can't be taken on

board, they can't be used. This may have some text addicts foaming at

the mouth, but they'll just have to holiday in the Lake District or

something.

The primary objective of terrorism is not to kill. Murder is just a

tool. The primary objective is to divide. Al-Qaeda seeks to promote

"holy war" between the West and the Arab world. Every cry of "if they

don't like here they should go home"  is a sign they are starting

to win.

[WendyG]

Ferry crossings.

Hopefully I will be crossing with BF next week to visit my house.  I will as usual be taking a load of "necessities".  Most home owners seem to go out with everything including the kitchen sink.  Does anyone know/have experience of how the security bods are dealing with this - it must be a nightmare.

Presumably it will be helpful if we carry some documentation showing home ownership in France to justify all the bits and pieces going across.

When I came back a couple of weeks ago I was asked whether I was travelling alone - this a 68 year old female!  I nearly said because I don't have a gorgeous toy boy.

 

  

[Juswundrin]

"These are hard times."

All the more reason for people to be tolerant and not start scapegoating, generalising and making assumptions.

"Anyone holding UK citizenship and a UK passport who conspires or participates in terrorism, including a person who’s ancestry is British beyond reproach, should be stripped of their citizenship and passport then thrown out."

Where to? A random country of your choosing? Most or all of those arrested yesterday are, I believe, British. Holding British passports. Many born in Britain. As British as you are. I believe it is you who is confusing religion with nationality.

"As to the guy on the tube wearing a padded jacket who jumped over the ticket barrier and ran from police, there is no case to answer the policemen who shot him repeatedly in the head honestly believed he was a suicide bomber and unless you personally can prove otherwise you have to take their word for it, because they're the police and they don't lie. It's sad that they got it wrong but if they got it right they would have been hero's. Calling it murder is just stupid, law has been applied and it says you are wrong."

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that the Police had found the Police entirely blameless.

[opas]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]These are hard times.

Chris and others have made statements which, in easier times, would seem intolerant.

The difference between them and some others we have known is that they are reacting to events which they find outrageous and an affront to everything they believe in. Not simply spouting some racist rubbish.


[/quote]

Do you realy think that the reactions   and thoughts voiced in this thread are anymore valid to those voiced elsewhere by anyone else?

Anyone who beleives in anything strongly enough will put their oppinion across , some obviously will be able to use long words and a plummy voice whereas others will not mince words and sound like a cross between Enoch Powell and John Prescott.

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Juswundrin"]"These are hard times." All the more reason for people to be tolerant and not start scapegoating, generalising and making assumptions. "Anyone holding UK citizenship and a UK passport who conspires or participates in terrorism, including a person who’s ancestry is British beyond reproach, should be stripped of their citizenship and passport then thrown out." Where to? A random country of your choosing? Most or all of those arrested yesterday are, I believe, British. Holding British passports. Many born in Britain. As British as you are. I believe it is you who is confusing religion with nationality. "As to the guy on the tube wearing a padded jacket who jumped over the ticket barrier and ran from police, there is no case to answer the policemen who shot him repeatedly in the head honestly believed he was a suicide bomber and unless you personally can prove otherwise you have to take their word for it, because they're the police and they don't lie. It's sad that they got it wrong but if they got it right they would have been hero's. Calling it murder is just stupid, law has been applied and it says you are wrong." Ah yes, I'd forgotten that the Police had found the Police entirely blameless.[/quote]

Where do terrorists go when thrown out? I and I think there are others as well really don't care. Perhaps they might like to go and live with their boss's wherever that might be, I said ALL terrorists (whoever they may be and whatever nationality they are).

Now you are being a bit of a comedian, what I actually wrote if you go back and check was.:

" As to the guy on the tube there is no case to answer the policemen who shot him honestly believed he was a suicide bomber and unless you personally can prove otherwise you have to take their word for it. It's sad that they got it wrong but if they got it right they would have been hero's. Calling it murder is just stupid, law has been applied and it says you are wrong."

It was the CPS who said there were to be no charges who as far as I know are not the police. Please don't add your own words when quoting people just use the cut and paste command it's safer. Don't try to see things that are not there.

[Viv]

[quote user="Jon D"]
The primary objective of terrorism is not to kill. Murder is just a tool. The primary objective is to divide. Al-Qaeda seeks to promote "holy war" between the West and the Arab world. Every cry of "if they don't like here they should go home"  is a sign they are starting to win.
[/quote]

 This is an 'open letter' sent by prominent British Muslims to Tony Blair

Prime Minister, As British Muslims we urge you to do more to fight against all those who target civilians with violence, whenever and wherever that happens.

It is our view that current British government policy risks putting civilians at increased risk both in the UK and abroad.

To combat terror the government has focused extensively on domestic legislation. While some of this will have an impact, the government must not ignore the role of its foreign policy.

The debacle of Iraq and now the failure to do more to secure an immediate end to the attacks on civilians in the Middle East not only increases the risk to ordinary people in that region, it is also ammunition to extremists who threaten us all.

Attacking civilians is never justified. This message is a global one. We urge the Prime Minister to redouble his efforts to tackle terror and extremism and change our foreign policy to show the world that we value the lives of civilians wherever they live and whatever their religion.

Such a move would make us all safer ".

Whilst a large number of Brits of all religious persuasions may not agree with the Governments Foreign Policy, I don't accept that an ethnic minority can dictate foriegn policy and issue what appears to me to be a veiled warning not to meddle in 'Muslim' affairs or if you do accept the consequences.

This letter, I feel also plays into the hands of Al Qaeda for similar reasons.

[Rosebud]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4785893.stm

This will be an interesting debate to follow.  Amidst all this anger and frustraion, we really need to be addressing WHY these people feel compelled to act in such an extreme fashion.  Until both sides can get a grasp on the root cause , it will just run and run, and I dread to think of what might happen. I for one feel a desperate need to understand this from the roots up.  I'd better get reading.......

Difficult times indeed........

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Diva Star"]

Whilst a large number

of Brits of all religious persuasions may not agree with the

Governments Foreign Policy, I don't accept that an ethnic minority can

dictate foriegn policy and issue what appears to me to be a veiled

warning not to meddle in 'Muslim' affairs or if you do accept the

consequences.

This letter, I feel also plays into the hands of Al Qaeda for similar reasons.

[/quote]

Yet it is an univited ethnic minority that is currently dictating, for

example, foreign and domestic policy in Iraq. As far as half the Arab

world is concerned, the West is crapping on them. That is why it is so

easy for evil little scrotes like Bin Laden and all his horrible little

gnomes to persaude people to commit violent acts. And at the root of

all this is the West's dependence on petroleum. That drives our foreign

policy.

[Frederick]

I understand.... it is taught that it is wrong for a muslim to act in a way that will put a fellow muslim into the hands of a non muslim for punishment.    So can sombody tell me how we get round the passing on of  information to the police from this community if they feel it is some sort of sin .... and they will be shunned.... if they inform on those  among them they  suspect are up to no good ... and it results in them being  put before a christian judge and sent to jail by him ? I once asked a muslim who was worried about being burgled  why he did not get himself a big dog.....he told me he was not allowed a dog.....I asked why and he told me it was "In the book...dogs are evil ".........if .this is the sort of thing they live their lives by ...I dont  know how we are going to get round it .

[Rosebud]

[quote user="Jon D"][quote user="Diva Star"]

Whilst a large number of Brits of all religious persuasions may not agree with the Governments Foreign Policy, I don't accept that an ethnic minority can dictate foriegn policy and issue what appears to me to be a veiled warning not to meddle in 'Muslim' affairs or if you do accept the consequences.

This letter, I feel also plays into the hands of Al Qaeda for similar reasons.

[/quote]

Yet it is an univited ethnic minority that is currently dictating, for example, foreign and domestic policy in Iraq. As far as half the Arab world is concerned, the West is crapping on them. That is why it is so easy for evil little scrotes like Bin Laden and all his horrible little gnomes to persaude people to commit violent acts. And at the root of all this is the West's dependence on petroleum. That drives our foreign policy.
[/quote]

 

Well said Jon.......

[Viv]

Unfortunately, the result that we have in Iraq was apparently not foreseen by Blair and Bush.

I fully accept what you say about a outside minority dictacting policy now in Iraq, but what to we do? Pull out and leave the various Muslim factions destroy each other, is it ok in the Islamic world that they can kill each other, but if the West does it, it smacks of a crusade?

For what its worth, I would pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq , and use the money saved to invest in researching non petroleum cars etc.[:D]

 

 

[chris pp]

"Unfortunately, the result that we have in Iraq was apparently not foreseen by Blair and Bush"

Or was it? If they really didn't foresee the consequences, it's a bit frightening, don't you think? Many ordinary people without the use of vast intelligence organisations, think tanks and experts had a good idea which direction things would probably go in, and at the time I seem to remember that someone close to BL said that he considered the invasion of Iraq to be the best Christmas present that Mr Bush and Mr Blair could give him.

Brains, not bullets, might be a better way forward, unfortunately all the worlds great powers seem to have only self interest at heart.

Chris

[Rob Roy]

"Mary, out of interest, would you still be saying that murdering an innocent man was the right thing if JCdeM had been white? English?"

Juswundrin, I have no interest whether he was black, white or blue, or his nationality, he knew the (then) current state of alert, was in the country illegally and tried to escape capture, a rather foolish thing to do I would have thought. The police acted as they saw fit, at that time, given the extreme pressures they were working under.

"Haven't you found that being an immigrant yourself has changed your perspective ? "

Not really, I try to understand and follow the rules. If he had done the same he would have been safely back in Brazil long before his death.

[Miki]

[quote] Juswundrin, I have no interest whether he was

black, white or blue, or his nationality, he knew the (then) current

state of alert, was in the country illegally and tried to escape

capture, a rather foolish thing to do I would have thought. The police

acted as they saw fit, at that time, given the extreme pressures they

were working under.[/quote]

But witnesses have said that he was walking  in to the station and

then run for his train as many folks do if they have left it a little

bit late. He was then said to be held down before being shot, not once

but 8 times. And if it was your totally innocent child that was shot 7

times in the head (plus one in the shoulder) and killed, would your stance stay the same? I don't think so.

And let us get one thing absolutely clear, many hotels and restos

run on illegal immigrants, the police are fully aware of the situation

and for the large part will turn a blind eye on individuals whilst

searching for the people that actually dump them on these shores in the

first place. As far as I am aware, there is no shoot to kill policy on

any illegal immigrants and any innocent person killed is Murder. It has

to be.....Dont go in to the armed police sections unless you are

willing to pay the price if you shoot and kill some innocent human

being in those kind of circumstances. If we do not make individuals and their superior(s) stand up and

face the consequences, one cannot be sure of what the future might hold.

As for that last statement, it beggars belief. The poor chap just

wanted to make a life for himself, no more, no less, he offered no grief or harm to anyone

whatsoever and he is shot dead.......................unbelievable!

There is an awful  lot to this story that does not add up but

the bottom line is that an innocent person was killed due to a terrible

set of errors, that should never have happened. The more you read about

it all, the more you can see, just how many errors the police were making from the moment the poor chap left his flat.

[Beryl]

I believe from my limited knowledge that the person who pulled the trigger acted in 'good faith' , in what must have been stressful circumstances and had to make a split second decision to protect the public. It would seem that this officer was badly let down by his colleagues who carried out what can best be described as woefully inadequate surveillance . It was the team behind him that really got it wrong.

I would like to see the Met Pol charged as a corporation rather than hang, the one officer who fired the shots, out to dry.

 

 

[Quillan]

I think a search on the BBC website might correct some of the errors which have been placed here. I am not saying it makes it right but the guy was shot eleven times and not seven. He was actually sitting down at the time and dragged to the floor then shot. Early statements by witnesses did say that he ran on to the train was tripped and jumped on and shot seven times. There is clearly a difference and it is difficult to get to the truth especially when the original chap who gave statements on TV turned out not to have even been in the same carriage. What is clear, by the nature of the fact that there will be no prosecution, is that the officers concerned at the time thought he was a suicide bomber. In the case of suicide bombers the police and Special Forces are told to shoot to kill on the basis that while alive the terrorist can detonate the bomb. Devices like Tazars, darts that contain drugs etc just do not work quick enough to stop a person from detonating the bomb. I am sure we would all like to see something that stops them but does not kill but sadly the truth is there just is anything.

Whilst I agree eleven shots are a bit excessive (to say the least) if you were in the officers shoes you might understand that the preservation of others on the train and the thought that you could go up as well made them act the way they did. Of course it’s tragic that an innocent person was killed just as in the same way innocent people (some of them Muslims as well) died when the bombs went off in London. One can argue as much as one wants about if he was or was not an illegal immigrant and if he was then he should not even be there, the bottom line is that he was, so were the police and they made a decision based on the information they had to hand at the time. The fact that the intelligence later turned out to be incorrect tends to point towards the intelligence gathers getting it wrong rather than the officer that actually shot him and if you are looking to bring somebody to book perhaps you should look there.