Diagnostics - Electrical fail

[Laurier]

Seeing the other thread on the diagnostics, I thought I would see if anyone could advise on the above.

I am going to look at a house for sale and understand it has failed the electrical diagnostic because it was wired in the English way rather than the French way. This doesn't mean an awful lot to me.

I am going to take a friend with me to look over the place generally. However, the owner has told me it is perfectly safe.

Would a failed electrical diagnostic, for that reason, be a problem ?

Laurier

[Pommier]

You'll need to factor in the cost of a re-wire because it'll need doing. If there was a fire you'd have trouble with the insurance company if it's failed the diagnostic.

[Anton Redman]

It is not perfectly safe because the French / EDF take a pretty cavalier attitude to like versus neutral issues.

In broad terms you will be beaten up on price when you sell it and may possibly have to sell it to French so get a quote for sorting it now

[mint]

If you're dead keen on the house, you could use the re-wiring cost as a bargaining tool.

[LEO]

[quote user="Laurier"]Seeing the other thread on the diagnostics, I thought I would see if anyone could advise on the above.

I am going to look at a house for sale and understand it has failed the electrical diagnostic because it was wired in the English way rather than the French way. This doesn't mean an awful lot to me.

I am going to take a friend with me to look over the place generally. However, the owner has told me it is perfectly safe.

Would a failed electrical diagnostic, for that reason, be a problem ?

Laurier[/quote]

You could still buy the house, live in it ,It may only be a problem when  you eventually want  to sell to, non english .

You say" the owner states it is perfectly safe "

That is more than likely to be the case .

The french electrical  inspector is happy to condemn the installation because , it doesn't conform to "french norms"

It could be argued that , english norms are superior!

I would want 3000 euros reduction on the price because of the failure notice!

[mint]

ONLY 3 grand?  No, I think not, I'd want at least half the price of the re-wire and I doubt you'd get that done for 6 thou and what about the inconvenience, damage to the fabric of the property, decoration to be made good afterwards, etc?

I don't know why people try to do stuff like re-wiring to "English standards" in France!  Plain stupid, if you ask me (yes, I know you haven't asked me!) and I'd have to absolutely love the place and get a nice chunk off the price before I'd even talk seriously of buying. 

[idun]

I daren't ask someone we know what happened when they sold as I know that they had english electrics. I know because I know the man who went and did the electrics for them and would have no truck with dangerous french electrics and did them the good old english way. I have been put in my place about even suggesting that they put life and limb at risk by changing to a french system in the past.

The house is sold, that is for sure. One day, I will ask, but not yet.

In this case I would want a very good reduction because of that. And why not, it isn't just the electrics that'll need doing, there could be all sorts of other works that require attention once the new system was in, including redecorating.

[LEO]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

ONLY 3 grand?  No, I think not, I'd want at least half the price of the re-wire and I doubt you'd get that done for 6 thou and what about the inconvenience, damage to the fabric of the property, decoration to be made good afterwards, etc?

I don't know why people try to do stuff like re-wiring to "English standards" in France!  Plain stupid, if you ask me (yes, I know you haven't asked me!) and I'd have to absolutely love the place and get a nice chunk off the price before I'd even talk seriously of buying. 

[/quote]

NOBODY SAID IT NEEDS TO BE REWIRED !

[idun]

NO they didn't, but it is a sledgehammer to get the price down. I'd use the changing the electrics and the decorating arguments.

 

WE AREN'T DEAF you know!!!!![:-))]

[LEO]

stop shouting!

[idun]

WHAT!!!

[NickP]

[quote user="LEO"][quote user="sweet 17"]

ONLY 3 grand?  No, I think not, I'd want at least half the price of the re-wire and I doubt you'd get that done for 6 thou and what about the inconvenience, damage to the fabric of the property, decoration to be made good afterwards, etc?

I don't know why people try to do stuff like re-wiring to "English standards" in France!  Plain stupid, if you ask me (yes, I know you haven't asked me!) and I'd have to absolutely love the place and get a nice chunk off the price before I'd even talk seriously of buying. 

[/quote]

NOBODY SAID IT NEEDS TO BE REWIRED !
[/quote] 

I think you may get a different view of that Leo from the French Electricity supply company, and the insurance company, especially after the fire. [Www]  

[woolybanana]

English electrics are not acceptable in France so why do people put them in, just as, I suspect, French electrics would not be acceptable in UK, so why do it?

You do not know if the electrics in the house are safe or not as the word of the owner is insufficient to be sure, and would need an English trained electrician to give them a certification - but that would mean certifying illegal electrics as being safe. And no French insurance company would cover you, just as a British insurer would also refuse a claim as they would use a French assessor in case of a claim who would spot the problem.

So, get a devis for rewiring and knock that off the price plus a bit for redecorating etc. Or walk away.

That house is not acceptable as is whatever the owner says. Don't be fooled into compromising on it.

Oh, by the way, EDF could cut you off is they discover it.

[Laurier]

Thanks for all the info. I am so glad I asked. The owner had intimated that he would consider a slight reduction in the price. However, it sounds as if it would involve quite a bit more than just replacing a 'circuit board'. I hadn't thought rewiring would be so expensive. I agree I would need to get it looked at properly and quoted for.

I hadn't considered the insurance aspect and that is very important. The house has been let out as a holiday let during the season for several years and I am surprised, therefore, that it doesn't conform in case of fire!! I find that a bit scary.

I have heard from others that the English wiring is superior to the French. However, I agree that you have to go with what the regulations in France and if it is not acceptable to EDF, then that is also a problem. The owner is probably genuine in that it is "safe" but I don't want to give myself problems further down the line.

I will only be able to get over to France in September to have a look but am very happy to be forearmed with so much extra info.

Tks all

Laurier

[DraytonBoy]

With thousands of houses on offer here why would you even consider one that has problems from the start?

[Laurier]

Hi DB

yes, when you put it like that, it does sound dopey, doesn't it, and that might well be what I will come round to in the end. I am very cautious so wouldn't venture in unless I was totally sure it was 'the one' and had checked all angles.

However, I have been looking for quite some time, back and forth to France, in and out of local mairies, and it sounded as if this one might tick a lot of the boxes, i.e. location, price, facilities, etc. so I thought it was worth taking a look.

Rgds

laurier

[Théière]

[quote user="DraytonBoy"]With thousands of houses on offer here why would you even consider one that has problems from the start?[/quote]

Possibly because of the English owner, sounds familiar to our senses.

Bearing in mind that many old french properties have potentially lethal wiring which is far worse from a fire and electrocution perspective than one recently "done to English spec" These days factoring in a rewire is probably required anyway. Most English homes would fail the latest spec (17th edition) and rewires in the UK would be well above £3000 nearer £5000.

How close to the English way is this house, if twin and earth cable has been used It's a complete no no. If its french cable at least it is someway closer. By English I expect they mean ring main circuits, really good to find this information out, were the parts brought over from the UK. The UK use single pole circuit breakers French use double pole, English sockets and light pendants? Just how English it is. As others have said safe is safe but it isn't legal.

When you read from some of the forums what people get up to it would put me off buying from a lot of UK owners, they are so quick to put down a cowboy builder but have no problems becoming cowboy DIY'ers

[AnOther]

As well meaning as it is nobody here can predict the cost of correcting the problem which for all we know can

range from the relatively simple, pulling the correct cable into

existing gaine and replacing switches and outlets etc. - pretty basic

stuff for a competent DIY'er - to the extreme such as ripping the whole

house apart and starting from scratch.

The logical course of action is to get a quote for putting it right so that you know exactly where you are. You can then make an informed decision whether to demand a discount, and how much, and if that is not forthcoming to buy anyway and absorb the cost, or just walk away.

[crossy67]

Wooly has written almost all I would have.  Very sound advice.

We bought a house knowing there were electrical issues, it needed an earth and a bit of rewiring according to the diagnostic.  We are now half way through a £7k total rewire.  Okay the house is big and there is lots to do but after getting a few estimates this seemed a decent price and the electrician is a nice chap that does a very good job (despite being a touch unreliable).  When he has finished there will be some rooms that will need a fair amount of redecoration, probably a weeks work for us just to tidy up but it will be worth it, we won't have wires nailed n every corner of the house.

As for French v's English wiring.  I think the French is far superior from a safety point of view, every major appliance has to have it's own supply with it's own breaker.  All wires are separate and fully insulated, no bare earth hidden amongst two power cables.

Which brings me onto your wiring, it may well need a total rewire because twin and earth has been used. The French regs would make it very difficult to make a ring main conform.

 Repairing parts of our wiring was pointless.  Okay, some of it had been renewed but we have found some very frighting discoveries like everything from the ground floor up is run off a single old lighting circuit, that's 5 bedrooms over two more floors.  I shudder when I think of using the floor sander, circular saw, lights, hot air paint stripper etc all of this crumbly skinny old piece of wire.

I'd ask if he minded if you got a quote for a full rewire your self and knock it off the cost.  Or pay your money, you say you've been looking for a while and this one ticks the boxes regarding price.  If it's cheap then the money saved buying it could help rewire it.  We bought ours not knowing the full extent of the problems but we got it so cheap I still feel a little cheeky lol.

[Laurier]

Thanks Crossy. That's brilliant.

As I said, I haven't yet seen it. I had thought if it was cheap enough, then it might be worth getting it done if everything else ticks the boxes but I do need to get a proper quote and factor in all the other works needed (decoration).

The location is the best I have seen so far for me, with everything I would need nearby, so I am loath to write it off until I have seen it for myself and found out what the financial implications are.

I have seen some very nice places which are in perfect condition and would suit me very well but they are in the wrong location!!

Tks again

Laurier

[Chancer]

Dont make a drama out of a crisis.

If you like the house then use the electrics firmly as a negotiating tool, get some devi's for remise à normes which will be eye watering but will work in your favour, the installation is probably safe but non conforming, even a house built/wired 2 years ago will be non conforming, there is absolutely no requirement to modernise or change anything other than what you may choose to believe regarding insurers.

EDF will not cut you off, they dont give a rats what goes on beyond their compteur/disjoncteur de branchement, they re-connected my place that had 90 year old electrics, 2 glass fuses for a entire hôtel and restaurant, decayed fabric insulated wiring, no earth, I could go on, they even managed to reverse the polarity in doing so making it even more unsafe as when one removed a fuse the circuit remained live.

They would however disconnect you following a request from the pompiers to intervene after a fire but it would be the fire damage precipitating that situation not English sockets/tableau/cable.

Someone asked why do people do it? - quite simply cost, not having the knowledge of the French regs or the language skills to learn them, probably coming over at weekends to retap their places in the sun bringing everything with them, not so many years ago before the diagnostics etc came into being in ceratin areas having a house wired with English sockets was seen as a great selling point by the immobiliers, anyone read any George East books [:P]

There are loads of properties around here with English wiring, they can all be traced back to an was an English builder for whom it was his trademark, he told me that he was very proud to have converted some French electricians to English wiring, ring mains, twin and earth and UK fuseboards, and I have seen the results of their work, blooming dangerous even by UK standards, they claim to be a pair of retired electricians working on the black but it turns out that they never were as witnesed by their work, they were factory operatives. given how much the registered electricians rip the ar5e out of the the market here (€15000 for a 100m2 new build pavilion no heating) and their "American" pricing policy for the English its not hard to see that financially these properties that once had a unique selling point are now a ticking time bomb.

[powerdesal]

''I have heard from others that the English wiring is superior to the French.''

I would love to read a proper, technical justification of this view point.

What is an 'american' pricing policy

[Théière]

[quote user="crossy67"]
As for French v's English wiring.  I think the French is far superior from a safety point of view, every major appliance has to have it's own supply with it's own breaker.  All wires are separate and fully insulated, no bare earth hidden amongst two power cables.
[/quote]

Not really the time or the place but you started it [:P]

The French fits the French system, like wise the UK fits the UK system, as usual mixing systems is where the problems occur. The UK also has each appliance on it's own supply (The flex cable with a fuse at the end of it) thus minimising the cable run before a safety device. The ring main also gives two paths back to the breaker. We at least know which side is live and which is neutral in our sockets so don't need double pole breakers [:D]

With the amount of condensation/humidity in some of the old French houses the potential for condensation in the boit de derivation which could lead to corrosion and therefore not such good continuity all the way back to the board is worrying, I believe the boxes should be hermetically sealed with a desiccant.

[nomoss]

[quote user="crossy67"] 
......... As for French v's English wiring.  I think the French is far superior from a safety point of view, every major appliance has to have it's own supply with it's own breaker.  All wires are separate and fully insulated, no bare earth hidden amongst two power cables. ...............

[/quote]

I thought the reason french cable has a full size, insulated earth wire is so it can be used as a conductor, e.g. when wiring two-way switches [:D]

That's how they are done in our latest house, which had a clean bill of health for its electrical diagnostique [:-))]

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="LEO"]

NOBODY SAID IT NEEDS TO BE REWIRED !
[/quote]

No need to SHOUT!

The OP's statement sounds pretty convincing, unless you mean that it should just be left as-is.

[quote user="Laurier"]... I am going to look at a house for sale and understand it has failed the electrical diagnostic because it was wired in the English way rather than the French way. [/quote]

Based on that I'd expect UK-style twin & earth, ring mains rather than radials and possibly even 13 amp square sockets. I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole in France because of probable problems with insurance and with having any future maintenance or modifications done.