We are debating on a move to France. Any advice appreciated!

[krusty]

[quote user="dave21478"]Follow them to their towerblock apartment with piss-soaked entrance and graffiti all over the walls and let me know if you think they enjoy living there.

[/quote]

Nothing new there , I grew up in one such block in the UK in the sixties .

[Clair]

[quote user="krusty"][quote user="dave21478"]Follow them to their towerblock apartment with piss-soaked entrance and graffiti all over the walls and let me know if you think they enjoy living there.[/quote]Nothing new there , I grew up in one such block in the UK in the sixties .[/quote]

They exist in 2009 in France too.

How does that fit in with your comment that

[quote user="krusty"]I just

feel [...] the great majority of the French are doing very well

thank you.[/quote]

[jon]

Oh Dave what a drama queen you are.No tower blocks around here....I left them behind in London....7 mins up the road people slept in door ways and on the Shepherds Bush Green leaving there rubbish behind.....[rubbish was still left there a few onths later when I left...the refuse people obvious declined to remove it]There were people selling drugs all around me.....inflicting their concept of crime and intimidating my well being and that of my buisness.Had enough of that Rough trade!

Graffiti ...around Bordeaux for sure and in London.But I am not chooseing to live amongst grafiti.Yes I do remember tower blocks in London....lived in one....hated it but worked towards changing my destiny.Lived next door to a well known gangster.Went to a school which I hated but endured the situation as there was no choice offered to me.

Put your idea about rose tinted glasses back in your pocket because that is not the way I view life!Sorry that some of you have not made happy choices.Hopefully you will all be back home and contented very soon.

[Iceni]

Follow them to their towerblock apartment with piss-soaked entrance and graffiti all over the walls and let me know if you think they enjoy living there.

Oh dear, what have I missed, never having been in a tower block? But perhaps those who have will answer this for me ? Who decorates the walls and odourises the entrances of such places?

John

[Patf]

[quote user="Hoddy"]

If you want to see where the poor people are try your local market on a cold, wet day in November, picking over the clothes on the second-hand stall. And no, they're not looing for designer labels. I found it quite shocking in this apparently very prosperous area.

Hoddy

[/quote]

Hoddy - that could have been me you saw buying 2nd hand clothes [:D]

I very rarely buy new, and find the quality of 2nd hand is good here.

[krusty]

Just to show a certain few can get out of poverty.

These sites with figures indicate a figure of 20% in poverty .

20% of say 60,000,000 =12,000,000

48,000,000 not in poverty = the greater majority

[Panda]

[quote user="krusty"]

Just to show a certain few can get out of poverty.

These sites with figures indicate a figure of 20% in poverty .

20% of say 60,000,000 =12,000,000

48,000,000 not in poverty = the greater majority

[/quote]

Again I think you are missing the point Krusty.  No one said the majority live in proverty, what I was saying is that I find the french generally are very down about their lot.  I have never met a french person who said, I have had the most wonderful day today, they would be happier telling you something that went wrong, for me it does seem that they like to look on the black side of everything. 

I really haven't met a french person in 6 years with a glass half full attitude, it's weird and it sounds wrong when I think or type, such a generalisation is daft, but that's how it has seemed to me. 

We can only talk about our own experiences and I feel both you and Jon feel the need to defend your view, you do not need to, if that's how you see it that's fine but allow me to say how I se it too without being defensive. 

Again I will say I love France and will return.  I am in Dordogne/Charente week after next Jon.

[jon]

Panda....Of course I defend my view because it is beeing attacked!

What is the point of having a view if it is not expressed!
We are 20km from St Emilion......which is not too close to charente.....but if you are happy to make a detour I will welcome you.What do you do when you go back to UK?

[Panda]

No one wants you not to state your point Jon, not at all and no one is attacking it, just stating our own experiences which oppose yours, that's life!  I've said before I was exactly the same as you, really postive on all things french and would not have a bad word said against my choice 4 years ago, but time has changed my views.

I have lived here for 6 years Jon and will be going back to live and work, as I have here, in IT.

Yes it is quite far (1.5 hours) but I would like to see that area, I will still have property in France so will have a holiday home here and so perhaps during my next holiday (october)  I will get over as I will fly into Bergerac, this visit to the area is to pack up for the move back so it could be quite busy.

[jon]

We had a property just outside Cognac.

We fell in love with a beautifull convent in Duex-sevres but decided that it was important to be in the Entre-duex-mers.

But if you have children to think of...well they come first.

Plus, of course people do miss their families back in UK.

 

[dave21478]

[quote user="jon"]

Oh Dave what a drama queen you are.No tower blocks around here....I left them behind in London....7 mins up the road people slept in door ways and on the Shepherds Bush Green leaving there rubbish behind.....[rubbish was still left there a few onths later when I left...the refuse people obvious declined to remove it]There were people selling drugs all around me.....inflicting their concept of crime and intimidating my well being and that of my buisness.Had enough of that Rough trade!

Graffiti ...around Bordeaux for sure and in London.But I am not chooseing to live amongst grafiti.Yes I do remember tower blocks in London....lived in one....hated it but worked towards changing my destiny.Lived next door to a well known gangster.Went to a school which I hated but endured the situation as there was no choice offered to me.

Put your idea about rose tinted glasses back in your pocket because that is not the way I view life!Sorry that some of you have not made happy choices.Hopefully you will all be back home and contented very soon.

[/quote]

Of course thats how you view life - almost every post you have made in this thread has been along the lines of how wondefully rich and content everyone in France is. Its simply not true. From the sound of your postings, you simply have no interaction with the less affluent side of society - organic markets, wine parties, "chateau lifestyle" - its plain to see that the circles you mix with dont know poverty. This doesnt mean that poverty and malcontent dont exist here. As I said, you need to remove the rose-tints and step outside your wonderfully comforting bubble of affluence and see how a not incosiderablepercentage of this countries population live.

And please dont imply that poor people are poor because they didnt make any effort - thats patronising in the extreme.

[jon]

Let us make it clear Dave and co.

I do not believe that all the French are wealthy and that there are no poor French people.

2.My area is has a lot of "COMFORTABLE" people living in it...yes and that is why there are nice organic markets,chateaux and people are chooseing this area to hold lavish wedding receptions and tour the vineyards

3.I do believe that opportunities come to those who venture towards them.....I have said this in many ways on several occassions and I am sticking to it.Not everyone succeeds...sadly.

4If you have children to concider then you need to think carefully before you leave uK......very carefully.

5.There is no point coming to France.....or any other country without plans, work or means of creating an income.Do not come without funds....it is not a good idea.

6 I researched for many years and owned property in two other regions which I sold[without an agent]

7 I had a succesful buisness in Uk which was started from nothing.....the only assets I had were hard work,dertmination and stamina.

8 It is not perfect here

9 I found it impossible to stay in London any longer the scenery was unattractive and the opportunity to work was no longer in view.Tescos was not an option for me at this stage in my life.For many years I had planned to be here in France....doing what I am doing.

IT has been a long passage of comments...mainly with people unable to accept my points......and in a different region with different circumstances.

 

[Quillan]

I have not been able to reply to some of the comments because I have been working. We are not a château and we don't do a lot of weddings (frankly I am getting a bit fed up with you constantly reminding us of this Jon, if that’s not a materialistic view I don’t know what is) but we are full all the same.

I am glad Jon recognizes that there are poor people in France and as others have shown there are quite a few but by no means all the population. A friend pointed out that part of the French constitution is equality but the problem is there are still the ‘haves’ and ‘have not’s’ and sitting in between are the middle class’s. The latter are the ‘engines’ of France and provide much of its wealth via tax’s and cotistations. Many middle class French believe they are the ones that make the rich, rich and pay for the poor as well servicing both ends of the class structure. Some are getting a bit fed up being ‘squeezed’ from both ends.

We also live in a large wine producing region, Languedoc. People work very hard for low wages. Most work with the vines starting at sunrise to tend them and then stopping about 10:00 then working again in the evening when it is again much cooler. I don’t personally know of any that earn as much as 10 Euros an hour.

I don’t think Jon mixes with the real poor, it seems to be wine producers who of course work hard but not for the same wages that those they employ get.

Since the car number plate system came in I have only seen three cars with the new plate, one local, one hire car and the third from out of the region. Not exactly an abundance of new cars. Personally I find it difficult to tell the age of cars other than by style. Many old cars look like new because the owners have saved and borrowed to get them and therefore look after them very well.

I get the feeling that Jon seems to think he is the only person who comes from a poor background which is a bit condescending to some others on the forum but then they have already given their view.

I ‘escaped’ poverty by joining the RAF as soon as I left school. I had to go else find some form of manual work like building as my parents could not afford to keep me. Joining young and then finally (after quite a few years) getting a commission does not, I am sad to say, give me a very good pension. In fact I have left it there till I retire. Poor for me was waiting for my dad to get home on payday because there was nothing to eat in the house. Hopefully he would get home early enough for my mum to go to the village shop and buy our tea.

Major cities in France have all the same problems as those in the UK including tower blocks with graffiti and nasty smells. Round Toulouse they tend to ‘shield’ them with concrete walls, In Perpignan you drive past them to get to the rugby ground. Many have a large immigrant population. I am told, but never seen, there are areas of Paris which are pretty rough.

I think that if somebody read only Jon’s posts they would be on a plane to France tomorrow morning as it sounds so idyllic. Personally I like my area of France and have a lot of respect for the people that live round me. I have helped with the Fete Committee for several years now and we often do things to help the old and poor people like discounted meals and cheap events. Like Cerise I have seen many poor people where I live and we have beggars in shop doorways even down here. What does concern me is that some people have a particular romantic view of France where as in reality it has problems just like in the UK, some are the same and some are different.

In Jon’s defense I don’t think he intends to come over in the way he does its just his way of writing but it can get a bit annoying at times.

[jon]

Well I must say....I am sure that you are all wonderfull people but if someone was contenplating coming to France and listiened to what you are all saying they would probably jump off the nearest bridge!

 

 

[NormanH]

Yet again this thread has drifted off into binary oppositions: good/bad; poor/rich; France/England; Rural/Urban; Public/Private; Working/retired; Children/no children

Has there been any advice? Plenty of detailed warnings on the one hand, and unsubstantiated assertion on the other

jon, who doesn't let his ignorance get in the way of the certitude of his opinions,  and cites no concrete evidence,  hasn't  lived here for long enough to be able to justify his ideas as anything other than preconceived, but has certainly hijacked the debate!

Those who do know facts and have cited them are accused of being negative, when they warn of potential problems in a thoughtful way.

My advice is simple.

Come to France if you speak good French, have a guaranteed basic income, and do not need to be employed.

Don't come otherwise.

[Cat]

[quote user="jon"]

Well I must say....I am sure that you are all wonderfull people but if someone was contenplating coming to France and listiened to what you are all saying they would probably jump off the nearest bridge!

 

 

[/quote]

I know the feeling!

I'm sure that a French person contemplating a move to the UK might experience a similar urge, if they were to read some of the posts on the forum.

The original poster did ask for advice, and he has had that, in spades. 

As for the accuracy of what is being said, I think Jon you'll find that after about 5 years here, as you become more experienced in France, you may begin to understand and form a more rounded opinion. 

(EDIT, Norman nipped in while I was replying, so I apologise for any repetition)

 

[krusty]

[quote user="Quillan"]In Jon’s defense I don’t think he intends to come over in the way he does its just his way of writing but it can get a bit annoying at times.[/quote]

Jon`s writing is in no way annoying to me .

And the fact that this thread is drifting a little , is no bad thing .It is good to hear all these other opinions.

I feel sorry for the poor , but this is the system we are stuck with .Supposedly fairer systems have been tried in Russia and China and failed so they too are now in their way trying the west`s system.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="NormanH"]

Come to France if you speak good French,

Don't come otherwise.

[/quote]

Can I take it Norman, that you  believe that anyone who doesn't already speak ''good French'' but is prepared to learn should stay away? That should make learning to speak ''good French'' somewhat challenging.

[Chancer]

Nothing but poverty and an abject lack of morality in the area where I live, people seem reasonably content with their lot as long as they can buy their pinard in Lidl just before closing time and go to a Loto once or twice a month. There is a very strong resentment of those who have money and any English houseowner is included in that generalisation, the obligatory geste being the rubbing of the finger and the thumb together whilst displaying a look of hatred.

As a consequence those that are doing alright hide their wealth and never show any outward signs of it, en revanche the poor majority love to show off the wealth that they dont have with conspicuos overconsumption of food, drink and holidays which they cannot afford.

There is a Picard saying that goes aong the lines of "I must have a bigger tractor than my neighbour especially now that all my land has been repossessed".

I did meet one couple that had pulled themselves up by their chinstraps, they had both studied, qualified and now hold down good jobs in Paris, they are treated like total outcasts by the populace.

For me the biggest difference between my region and the UK as a whole is the total acceptance of ones lot and a total lack of aspiration, having said that I can understand why given how the system to date has conspired against, instead of rewarding enterprise, the few exceptions to this have all been immigrants.

Jon I admire what you have done in the past starting from nothing like many of us on this forum but you must agree that whilst technically possible to do the same in France you dont come across many self made people.

[NormanH]

 I think your edit is rather unfair...and I didn't say be bilingual..

I am  following the trend of various European countries (UK and France included) who demand that non-European immigrants should pass a test of language  (and sometimes a test 'cultural awareness' of before settling.

Under European regulations this can't be applied to Europeans, but I don't see any reason why the same thing shouldn't at least apply to advice!

My advice is to learn French before settling here with no  French qualifications, no job, and a family to support.

There are organisations such as Alliance Française in the UK who might help.

Do not underestimate the barrier that ignorance poses to getting a job, or running a business: you are worth the level of French that you speak.

Holiday makers and second home owners are a different case.

[Braco]

Come to France if you speak good French,

Don't come otherwise.

I speak twenty French words badly and yet have no fears of moving to France or any other country.

While I agree that language skills are a prerequisite for gaining employment in most trades they are by no means a requirement in all. A lot of the successful business start ups are initiated by immigrants who lack these formal skills.

As I will not be looking for employment the debate is purely academic.

It should also be remembered that over 50% of all communication is not verbal and universal.

[Scooby]

Sorry - I agree with NormanH on this one...and I think the problem with many of those living in their rosy bubble is their lack of language skills that would enable them to understand what the real France is like - and what the French really think of les étrangers.

[Braco]

Sorry but I could not disagree more. The world is now a small village for anyone with the means to have a choice.

Language tests and the like hark back a time when nationalism/insecurity ruled.

By this logic it is better to be despised in Cornwall rather than France for driving up the cost of housing when purchasing a second or third home because I will understand the language.

I just wonder if there is not an element of elitism in the fluent French speakers.

[Owens88]

Language tests and the like hark back a time when nationalism/insecurity ruled.
...

I just wonder if there is not an element of elitism in the fluent French speakers.

Surely it is just a matter of practicality.  

Braco. wherever you call 'home' would you be impressed by immigrants who made no attempt to accommodate to at least some of your norms, including language ? 

I haven't followed the full thread so if anybody has implied that fluent french is needed to mix here then I beg to disagree with them. I have schoolboy french plus shrugs and body language, and more fluency when we share a drink !

However, yes I regret losing the detail on occasions, and YES  I regret and miss  the rapid exchange of nuances  that can happen within one's mother tongue or other fluent language. But when in France I regard that as my fault not anybody else's. IF I lived in France I would HAVE to speak workable French quickly, as a matter of honour and practicality.

 

[Owens88]

[quote user="desperatedan"][quote user="KathyF"][quote user="desperatedan"]

Oh well thanks very much for all your advice. Very negative most of it! 

[/quote]

Dan, I would rather say that it is realistic and very well-meant.  No-one is trying to be nasty.

[/quote]

No offence taken whatsoever. I am enjoying reading the responses. I fully accept Im open to a lot of negativity given the title of my thread. Like the title says we are 'debating' the move. Its been 12 months of debating!

[/quote]

 

I have no experience of living in france but have been reading the forums for some time.  It does strike me that many people who have moved to France don't recognise  that they are immigrants, with all the problems that brings wherever.

Outisde of that there are visitors (like me) however frequent and retirees on a UK pension. Both are different situations than emigrating to France.

Good luck whatever you choose.

 

John