We are debating on a move to France. Any advice appreciated!

[chessfou]

We retirees (or near retirees) are not a separate category. We are either immigrants (as we are) or visitors (for those who split their time between UK and France).

On the language front, there is no doubt in my mind that basic French is essential on arrival (unless you can find an immigrant ghetto as used to be the case with Bradford for those with only Urdu) and I strongly advocate improving it as far and as fast as possible.

What happens when you have to go the doctor and then to the pharmacie or the hospital? How would someone without adequate French get on if, as I have just done, they had to spend two weeks+ in hospital? Non-verbal communication isn't half good enough in such circumstances.

During my hospital stay, while I was in itensive care, I heard of an Englishman in there whose command of French ran to "oui" and singing Frère Jacques. One rarely has a great time in hospital but how do you think it was for him?

[jon]

Morning....I agree with you....command of French is important.

Being in hospital.....very ill...is awfull.Hope all is well now.Sadly my experences in full English in UK was not very pleasant.Being able to understand every aspect of my medical problems did not lead to an acceptable way of being cared for.All memories of the NHS are better forgotten in every way .........................[ in relation to treatment of several people dear to me.]

A close friend of ours who has lived here for 5 years has recently praised his doctors and every aspect of his care at the Bordeaux hospital and all the ongoing attention from the health service.

[Quillan]

Couldn't agree more about retirees, some have retired normally, some early and some very early, you can't make a blanket statement.

I did think that before I came not speaking French would not be a problem, I mean everyone speaks English don't they [;-)] .

No speaking French is a must, the bit about the hospital, doctor etc is very important else you will be paying a lot of money for translators.

One of the problems the English have is seeing themselves as immigrants, they think you have to be a different colour for a start. You want to listen to the French talk about Moroccans, Algerians etc but those are the people they talk about and insult in front of you. Don't be so naive as to think that they don't talk about the English when you walk away because they do in just the same way. Racism does not just cover Black and White. I should add that not all French and English behave this way but there are a few of them.

[woolybanana]

Most English are not immigrants as the do not seek to work and mainly go back in the closing days.

[jon]

I have to laugh!Thank goodness because you lot are far from cheery!
In London I employed several people from Poland and Slavinia[and other places]

They were never happy,never satisfied...always gossiping in corners about everyone around them...."how they were being exploited" by the British.They were paid the same as all other employees and taxed in the same manner.At xmas time we all exchanged seasonal greetings and gifts...but in their hearts they still seemed to feel used.I believe that it is because they felt and still feel that they needed to move away from their mother country in order to find a new life [and perhaps themselves]

Yes of course many French people will question our existance here.But so many have reason to welcome us.

We were invited to a meeting a couple of months ago at the Maires' office.We were all asked to help in creating activities and ideas for the summer events.One of the people stood up and announced that he thought that the village was benefiting from our activity.I had hoped to find a band/group for our celebrations in July but everyone was booked.Each band member earns 250. euros per gig.I know that some of these bands work as much as 4 times each week in the season.Our season here begins in April and goes through untill some time in Oct.

I can only report as I find.In time I feel that life should improve;friendships made may strengthen and the credit crunch may subside a little...people will lighten-up and maybe feel that they can spend more freely.We are having a very reasonable begining to our buisness and support from neighbours etc.So there we are....

 

 

[Sprogster]

braco, virtually all countries have a language test for immigrants taking a citizenship application exam and most countries who still seek to attract skilled migrants, give extra qualifying points for those who speak the country's language, such as Australia and NZ. 

[baypond]

From reading all the thread, it seems to me that MONEY and LANGUAGE are the two main determinents of what you can afford/not afford to consider when thinking of a move to France. Clearly, the more money you have at your disposal, the less need you have to immerse yourself in the local community for support/work. Of course you may want to, but it is a choice, not a neccessity.

Therfore if you need to be part of the local community for either economic or social reasons, then Norman's point about being able to understand and speak French is absolutely correct. To try from scratch to learn the language in situ is fine, but if you have little or no money at your disposal, you may run out of time before you have the necessary language skills to get going.

If you have loads of money, then in theory (and it wouldn't be my choice) you could live in France for as long as you liked, with little or no contact with the community.

I think it is interesting that the most common form of work for expats is running Gites or B&B. It arises because to a large part, it is probably viewed/deemed the simplest way of living and earning in France. Obviously, from previous threads, even here, the reality is somewhat different from the dream.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="NormanH"] I think your edit is rather unfair...and I didn't say be bilingual..
I am  following the trend of various European countries (UK and France included) who demand that non-European immigrants should pass a test of language  (and sometimes a test 'cultural awareness' of before settling.

Under European regulations this can't be applied to Europeans, but I don't see any reason why the same thing shouldn't at least apply to advice!
My advice is to learn French before settling here with no  French qualifications, no job, and a family to support.
There are organisations such as Alliance Française in the UK who might help.
Do not underestimate the barrier that ignorance poses to getting a job, or running a business: you are worth the level of French that you speak.

Holiday makers and second home owners are a different case.




[/quote]

NormanH,

I believe that you refer to my edit being unfair, how so?

You stated quite clearly that "if you dont speak good French........dont come."  An unequivocal statement, subsequently expanded upon above by your comments regarding qualifications,job and family to support.

In respect of that later comment I agree totally. However, the same need for ''Good French'' cannot apply to those immigrants who are self sufficient financially and are no charge on the state. ''Working (conversational) French will obviously make life easier and I take the points made about hospitals / doctors etc.

There are no doubt facilities in UK for learning French, and, if I was in UK I would possibly use those facilities, although such facilities are probably only realistically available to those in or near major connurbations, not to those who may live in the "sticks". There are of course the home learning alternatives (Michel Thomas et al).

In short, your last line should, in my opinion, have the words "and retirees" inserted after 'second home owners'

[Braco]

Hi Owens88

Surely it is just a matter of practicality.

Braco. Wherever you call 'home' would you be impressed by immigrants who made no attempt to accommodate to at least some of your norms, including language ?

I detest nationalism in all its forms. I would be interested to discover what you would consider ‘some of you norms’ as I suspect that they are either universally held or just particular to your life experiences.

Tens of thousands of mainly Eastern Europeans are currently establishing themselves in the UK – finding work, setting up homes, and educating their children without too many problems.

It would be a truly damning indictment of the UK education system (I was educated in the UK) if I was not able to feed myself, and relax while not having to work because of a lack of French.

Denying myself possibly years of happy experiences because at some point I may have additional difficulties in a hospital makes no sense.

Ultimately we all gravitate towards people who have similar interests and outlooks. In my case the persons ‘nationality’ is a complete non issue unless it is important to them in which case we have nothing in common.

[Panda]

Surely it's not just hospital type issues where you need to be able to speak, what about when the house has flooded and you need to call a plumber urgently?  Who does this for you retirees who can't speak the language? 

I know who does it where I'ved live, ME.  I have two nearish negihbours in the Charente (one about 600 yeards the other a mile or so) and they come and see me only when something has gone wrong and they want help.  The last time they had no hot water and couldn't speak enough french to call a plumber out.

I know you can get by without speaking but what sort of life is that when you can't speak in any detail to your neighbours and as above can't do simple daily things without resorting to calling in help from others.  I would never want to be in this position what ever my situation.

[Lori]

I agree with Panda.   What do you do when you get letters from the various French establishments, EDF, Water Authority (SDEI in our region), your bank, the town hall, insurance company (heaven forbid you actually have to contact them or WRITE to them)... and with children you will be speaking and reading A LOT of French with the staff from the school(s) they attend.  You will also need to submit quite a bit of written data to the schools over the year(s).  You will also need to understand the way all of the above noted things operate.  How can you review those things (as they are all in French) without a good command of the language?

Yes, like Panda, I have been called on to call Plumbers, pool maintenance folk, Doctors, Hotel owners, etc., etc. by people who have lived here for years and don't speak French.  These are the same people who said they would be 'fluent' within a year.....

[Owens88]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Couldn't agree more about retirees, some have retired normally, some early and some very early, you can't make a blanket statement.

[/quote]

 

Fair cop Guv. I think I was oversimplifying.

John

[Owens88]

[quote user="Braco"]Hi Owens88

 I detest nationalism in all its forms. I would be interested to discover what you would consider ‘some of you norms’ as I suspect that they are either universally held or just particular to your life experiences. Tens of thousands of mainly Eastern Europeans are currently establishing themselves in the UK [/quote]

 

yes the Eastern Europeans fit in well (and have done so for decades ) because they learn English quickly and drink beer (one of my norms, smile !). 

 

I wouldn't want a debate that hung on precise meanings of words but I do detest racism of all sorts, not just colour. I don't have a problem with there being some form of regional (or national) identities and pride. In fact I enjoy and respect differences.

[NormanH]

[quote user="powerdesal"]

[quote user="NormanH"] I think your edit is rather unfair...and I didn't say be bilingual..

I am  following the trend of various European countries (UK and France included) who demand that non-European immigrants should pass a test of language  (and sometimes a test 'cultural awareness' of before settling.

Under European regulations this can't be applied to Europeans, but I don't see any reason why the same thing shouldn't at least apply to advice!

My advice is to learn French before settling here with no  French qualifications, no job, and a family to support.

There are organisations such as Alliance Française in the UK who might help.

Do not underestimate the barrier that ignorance poses to getting a job, or running a business: you are worth the level of French that you speak.

Holiday makers and second home owners are a different case.

[/quote]

NormanH,

I believe that you refer to my edit being unfair, how so?

In short, your last line should, in my opinion, have the words "and retirees" inserted after 'second home owners'

[/quote]

Why do I find it unfair?

Because my statement was

"Come to France if you speak good French, have a guaranteed basic income, and do not need to be employed."

That is to say a package of ideas, not just focussed on the language issue.

It was also targeted at the OP's situation, not at retired people.

Your edit makes it seem that I am saying 'Don't come to France if you can't speak French' in a blanket statement  covering everybody.

On the issue of  retired people (whom I consider covered by the second and third clause of my statement) there could be some debate, but it's not the same case as that of the OP.

I have seen sad cases of  non-French speaking couples who don't have any contacts with the local community and whose dream is shattered when one of them passes away, especially if that person was the driver or the one who had the better inkling of French.

[Cendrillon]

Braco wrote:

"Ultimately we all gravitate towards people who have similar interests

and outlooks. In my case the persons ‘nationality’ is a complete non

issue unless it is important to them in which case we have nothing in

common. "

Of course you do (gravitate towards people who have similar interests

and outlooks) we all do, but if they are French people who speak little English then you would not be able to communicate and make that connection without a reasonable amount of fluency in their language.

[jon]

"The Poles fit in well" ....because they drink beer!They came to London in droves....as I explained...they never ever seemed to be really happy because they came to the streets which were paved with gold.However even in UK you have to work for some of the gold!

Many of them are returning now from Ireland and UK...they are very family orientated, and of course home is where your family are..{.even though many of these fathers would work in Uk and send money home].It is not an easy world.Was easier when we had less materialistic cravings.Please do not think that all the Polish people who came to London and worked with us were poor....not at all!

Why do so many people run a B and B when they come to France.....they think that catering and the public are easy.Oh no!.....but I still enjoy the hotel like situation.The only difference here is that I have  punctuation;I do not work every day and 16 hours per day.There are other assets involvolved but that will create war as it highlights my appreciation of my region.That, of course is dangerous!

Off to cook.

 

[mint]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="powerdesal"]

[quote user="NormanH"] I think your edit is rather unfair...and I didn't say be bilingual..
I am  following the trend of various European countries (UK and France included) who demand that non-European immigrants should pass a test of language  (and sometimes a test 'cultural awareness' of before settling.

Under European regulations this can't be applied to Europeans, but I don't see any reason why the same thing shouldn't at least apply to advice!
My advice is to learn French before settling here with no  French qualifications, no job, and a family to support.
There are organisations such as Alliance Française in the UK who might help.
Do not underestimate the barrier that ignorance poses to getting a job, or running a business: you are worth the level of French that you speak.

Holiday makers and second home owners are a different case.


[/quote]

NormanH,

I believe that you refer to my edit being unfair, how so?

In short, your last line should, in my opinion, have the words "and retirees" inserted after 'second home owners'

[/quote]
Why do I find it unfair?
Because my statement was
"Come to France if you speak good French, have a guaranteed basic income, and do not need to be employed."
That is to say a package of ideas, not just focussed on the language issue.
It was also targeted at the OP's situation, not at retired people.

Your edit makes it seem that I am saying 'Don't come to France if you can't speak French' in a blanket statement  covering everybody.

On the issue of  retired people (whom I consider covered by the second and third clause of my statement) there could be some debate, but it's not the same case as that of the OP.

I have seen sad cases of  non-French speaking couples who don't have any contacts with the local community and whose dream is shattered when one of them passes away, especially if that person was the driver or the one who had the better inkling of French.

[/quote]

Norman, that was a good defence of your position and, when I read your post referred to, I took in all the points that you mentioned initially.

I must admit that, on this thread, your arguments have been well thought out and excellently put.

 

[Braco]

Cendrillon

The answer is that it will of course be my loss. I am fluent in Greek (my first language) and English. I sincerely wish that I was multilingual but we have to deal with situations as they are.

I doubt very much that in my remaining years that I will become proficient in any others. What to do – spend the next ten years learning the language before taking the leap. And after that if we decide to move on to Italy which we also love another cycle.

You mention the French neighbours, what about the Dutch, Germans, and any one else living near by.

Our choice is to muddle along.

The bottom line is that we visit the fishmonger to buy fish, not to discuss Dostoevsky’s moral question.

[Braco]

Hi Owen88

So your spiritual home is Munich in October?

[Owens88]

[quote user="Braco"]Hi Owen88 So your spiritual home is Munich in October?[/quote]

I have not done that trip since my student days, way off in a previous century.

Funnily enough I am not a great fan of German beers but I did down a few Dunkels bieres the other night (bought in Leics, UK !).

 

As regards your other posts. I bet that fluency in english and greek means that you would acquire skills in whatever language you were surrounded by quite quickly.  I think that most of the posts in the thread were referring to the 'new language avoiders' that get up people's nose whether they be in France or the UK.

G'night

John

 

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="jon"]

We were invited to a meeting a couple of months ago at the Maires' office.We were all asked to help in creating activities and ideas for the summer events.One of the people stood up and announced that he thought that the village was benefiting from our activity.I had hoped to find a band/group for our celebrations in July but everyone was booked.Each band member earns 250. euros per gig.I know that some of these bands work as much as 4 times each week in the season.Our season here begins in April and goes through untill some time in Oct.

[/quote]

It's a change of subject I know but I am a member of the Fete Committee for our two villages (300 inhabitants in total). Its very time consuming and like any of these type of committees its a bit like volunteering in the forces. Its not that you took a step forward its that the rest take a step back. Whatever you do it will not please everyone.

I can tell you that organising a band is not as simple as just finding one. You will have to pay tax and get a licence for the band to play, you also need a bar licence to serve drinks. We use the one from our local bar. The Tresor Public have a department which looks through local papers for fetes to ensure all the tax's are paid. Last year we had a band for two nights playing 3 hours a night and it cost us 10k plus tax and licence and the band was average. We also (as a village) had to accommodate them (probably why I was asked on the committee - accommodate them for free!) feed them and supply their drinks. This year we are having a disco. We arrange other things during the summer including part of the International Folk Festival playing in the village, dances (disco) and Boules once a month with a bar and BBQ. Being a Catalan area we also have the annual bull run which is hard to organise because of road closures etc. Its not the cost its all the paperwork involved. France is a very beaurocratical country. I personally find it quite pleasing to do, putting something back in to the community but then saying that my B&B's presence does that by getting guests to spend their money here and me buying my supplies locally.

Anyway, good luck, I am sure you will find it very rewarding and hopefully it will bring a lot of pleasure to your village.

[Quillan]

Brits/Immigrants running B&B's.

It's true many do this because of language issues, its certainly why I started. The problem comes in reading all the regulations etc, you need to be able to first find them then understand them and they are all in French. Sure you can get a 'friend' to translate them for you to get started but then of course you basically aim yourself at the English speaking market. If you get in any French books of magazines you then get phones calls from French people looking for a B&B, very difficult over the phone even when you speak a few odd words of French.

The problem now is that English only B&B's are finding it quite hard what with exchange rates etc. We always aimed ourselves at the French market first and English speaking countries second, it gives you the drive to learn the language and the older you are the hard it is to learn. Three English B&B's in our immediate area are up for sale, many have few or no bookings (all the French ones are full) yet we have had our full sign up for three of the last four weeks and it will be staying up for the next two. Most of our guests in this period are French and without them we would seriously have to reconsider what we are doing. Having a wife who is lucky enough to find work is a great bonus. Miki (an ex member and been in France donkeys years running B&B's etc just in case people do not know to whom I refer) told me a long time ago that Gites/B&B's should be considered a secondary income and not the primary and also never have a mortgage because the business is so fickle.

So to not speak French and run a B&B might seem an obvious choice for many Brits but when your UK market dries up where do you get your guests from if English is the only language you speak. It's not easy work either, Jon is quite right, 16 hours a day is about average although with a lot of practice (over several years) I have got mine down to about 12 hours per day. Its long and its hard (steady girls[;-)]), running a B&B that is.

[jon]

Yes the work of a B and B is very hard.As long as you go into this with your eyes open and without a mortgage.

Certainly no borrowing.

In my opinioun you need to give good value and be flexable.My clients this week have had a  plate of cooked food with their breakfast.The breakfast includes all the usual things like bread, brioche and yougurt...but also fresh fruits...we have cherries right now.Today it was scrambled eggs and smoked salmon.

For dinner last night there were four generous courses[I left the cheese out and gave another starter...avocado and fesh prawns,a fresh salmon and corriander fish cake with home made chilli and lime jam...followed by a veal chop,cep sauce,fresh spinache,courgettes sauteed with  fresh plum tomatos and baby new potatos...To finish rubabrb crumble made with ground almonds.

I believe that making money now is not easy...really hard in fact...and those who need an income have to apply themselves.

As I have said before...I believe in UK  if I had stayed I would have moved away to a region...lets say Cornwall or Devon....and looked for a similar property....[would have had to pay more for such a property] and the season would be shorter by maybe two months.Our clients come from all over the world.....and hopefully this situation will continue.We have people arriving this week from Dubai and next week from Hong-Kong.Most of these people wish to dine with us because of our cooking baground which is extensive and fairly precise.

We are, I guesse competitive for quality and price.

However my eggs are not all in one basket!My eyes are wide open and I listien to others.As you can see.

Just remember that nothing is forever!In a few years time the economy may recover somewhat....we have venture to something smaller....a place near the sea.I may even have the desire to stop working..who knows....this is just life.

 

[jon]

Nothing is forever...except for the typing mistakes!

[Sprogster]

Good grief jon, reading your last post about the cooking you do for your guests got me salivating! Any chance of adding your website to your posts, as if I have reason to visit your area, a booking may be on the cards.

It seems to me that you have developed a market on the reputation of your cuisine, which differentiates you from the norm.