juxtapose Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Aahh!!We have today received a summons from an English court for 1245 pounds, for being a registered keeper of a vehicle without a licence!!!We sent the DVLA a letter last year stating we was bringing the car to France for 1 year. It is now 13 months later, we have decided to stay for another 2 years, so have sent off for the export cert 2 weeks ago, have got a control technique, after finding french headlights,( they would'nt except the stickers) French Insurance, got a cert from the Impots, and am now waiting for the cert of confomity to arrive. I think then we are ready to re-register!What I am not clear on, is I thought that you did'nt need UK road tax for the vehicle in France, it ran out in May!!The young lady at the DVLA said you have to keep the road tax up, until it is re-registered! I did'nt know that, and now they want my husband to return to England to go to court!Help!!We have never been taken to court before, has anyone got any advise. We really was trying to do everything the proper way!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 You did not formally export the vehicle, did not register in France, did not complete an SORN thus indicating that it WAS still on the road, it is still registered in UK where you must have a Road Fund licence.Perhaps NOW people will listen to Miki etcJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I'm so sorry to hear this, and good luck, it is hard to know what you can do other than plead ignorance. After your letter of last year, they could perhaps of informed you of the correct procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtapose Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote]You did not formally export the vehicle, did not register in France, did not complete an SORN thus indicating that it WAS still on the road, it is still registered in UK where you must have a Road Fun...[/quote]Thankyou for your reply, which i feel you did,nt give much thought to!!As i said before, I was, initially coming here for 12 months only. Therefore why would I re-register the car in france, only to take it back to England? I thought by writing to DVLA before I left explaining the cars were in France everything was OK!Obviously not!As to your quote "now maybe people will listen". I think you are being very harsh! I stated all the processes we have actually already completed, to be legal, and I did "listen", many times, to people, that , you don,t need a UK road licence in France!!Maybe you are a certain type of person, whom knows it all, as they say, not like silly old me, who stupidly asked a question on this forum! My first, I might add!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtapose Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote]I'm so sorry to hear this, and good luck, it is hard to know what you can do other than plead ignorance. After your letter of last year, they could perhaps of informed you of the correct procedure.[/quote]Thankyou for your reply! I have spoken ,again to the Dvla, who say it is out of their hands, as there has already been a court hearing and that I have to write directly to the court. The problem is, she said I do not want to appeal as then I would have to go back to court for the hearing! this will obviously cost time and money, so today I am sending off a long letter explaining the situaion. Don,t hold much hope, but just wanted other people to be aware, YES you must keep the road tax uptodate, until re-registered, as the DVLA have told me!! what a bad day!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I feel for you as it really is bad luck either through sheer misinformation or bloodymindedness. However, this should serve as a warning to those who openly flout the regs that their time may also come regardless of hiding in France,big brother is everywhere! As my husband is always saying, those that deliberately ignore the laws never get caught and those that pay or just get the wrong info do,you can't win. Good luck with the court case anyway and if you can, plead hard. I've seen loads of UK reg cars here with expired road tax going back years and they are still driving around on english plates and NO french insurance stickers in sight - makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I think I hinted about this tightening up at the DVLA in another thread - you will automatically be taken to court by the DVLA unless the paperwork is correct.Just 5 mins ago there was an ad to the effect of 'You think not paying your road fund doesn't matter ?'Basically the attitude is ** if the road fund is not paid, will you also be not paying your insurance, or MOT ? Is the car roadworthy at all? **BTW If you belong to a motoring organisation you may be able to get some help from them, worth a try ?Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Oh dear, we have been all through this before in this forum. Even I got confused and phoned the DVLC in the end. The rules are quite simple really.Does the car have a UK registration number.If the answer is yes you are covered by UK law wherever the car is. By this I mean it must either be kept off road and have a SORN or carry a valid tax disk regardless of if you are in the UK or not.Can you be let off if you are say a contractor working in another EU country from having a valid tax disk.NoIs there anyway of not having a tax disk.Yes register the car off road and not used or re-registering the car in the country it is in. You can pay a small fee and keep your registration number reserved for about 2 years I believe but I'm not sure about the time period.So the bottom line is you must have a valid tax disk, MOT (if applicable) and insurance that conforms to UK law.Now your next problem will be getting a MOT because you will either need one now or in the future to get your tax disk. The only way you can do this is to phone ahead to a MOT garage for an appointment at your port of entry because you won't have any car tax. If you are really unlucky and you owe the DVLC money they will impound the car on entry until it's paid.My personal advice is that you should phone the DVLC if you have a question and not writing as with the latter you may never receive a reply. If in doubt ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtapose Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote]Oh dear, we have been all through this before in this forum. Even I got confused and phoned the DVLC in the end. The rules are quite simple really. Does the car have a UK registration number. If t...[/quote]Thanks for the reply, Quillan.After posting my topic regarding the court, I read lots of other peoples comments in the vehicle section, and there really is alot of confusion over this subject. I think to bring this up again is helpful to those of us who are misinformed! Still think that by writing to the DVLA last year, and actually, nearly re-registered in France I have been treated unfairly! But that's life I suppose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jc Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Ther is no confusion;after the first few months grace,cars must be legal in France-this consists of insurance,registration with your commune and CT(if old enough)there are no other options-don't believe what other people tell you-go direct to the authorities-these other people won't pay your fine or go to prison for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Juxtapose, Sorry to hear you have fallen foul of the UK car registration laws. However, in defence of the DLVA they have been including for a least the last 2 to 3 years leaflets in their renewal notices advicing the rules on SCORN. The other point that is worth noting is that UK registration Certificates have been change this year and a new one has been sent out after one has renewed their licence, with intructions to destroy the old ones. I hope you are able to sort out the court problem, but suspect this may be impossible. If you are a member of the AA or RAC it might be worth a phone call to their legal department.Bazjuxtapose | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote]Thanks for the reply, Quillan. After posting my topic regarding the court, I read lots of other peoples comments in the vehicle section, and there really is alot of confusion over this subject. I th...[/quote]The only advice I can give you is the following which does make some assumptions.Firstly, I don't think technically you have a leg to stand on as the law is the law.If it is possible to not attend court but to plead guilty by post you could try the following. This very much depends on the fact you can prove you sent the letter or that the DVLC admit you sent them a letter and that they did not reply.Plead guilty but as mitigating circumstances state, briefly and factually what has happened and admit you have not paid the car tax because by the nature you did not receive a reply you felt it was OK. State that you know accept that you have to pay for the outstanding fees but say that because of your mitigating circumstances you feel the fine on top is excessive. You might get away with this, I doubt it but it's worth a try.You may find that the DVLC will not issue an export certificate until the matter is closed but they won't charge you road tax from the date you made the application till the date the matter is resolved.Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 If you are resident in France then you should register your vehicle with your prefecture within three months of moving to the department.As far as French authorities go letters should be sent recommended with "accuse de réception" so that you have proof of receipt.This does not help the original poster but may clarify these issues for other people in similar situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtapose Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote]The only advice I can give you is the following which does make some assumptions. Firstly, I don't think technically you have a leg to stand on as the law is the law. If it is possible to not attend...[/quote]Have taken your advice and am now adding more to my letter!Hoping I'll only have to pay the 245 pound, and not the extra 1000 !!Fingers, and everything else, CROSSED!!!Thanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtapose Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 [quote]Ther is no confusion;after the first few months grace,cars must be legal in France-this consists of insurance,registration with your commune and CT(if old enough)there are no other options-don't belie...[/quote]He, He, He, You,re quote" there is no confusion" made me laugh!!!Thanks for that, and I did write to the authorities last year to notify them of our situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Didn't Pucette mean 'there is no confusion' from the french side, rather than the DVLA, after all there are laws and regs in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtapose Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 [quote]Didn't Pucette mean 'there is no confusion' from the french side, rather than the DVLA, after all there are laws and regs in France.[/quote]I'm CONFUSED!!!Not sure now what Pucette meant. But when I said there was a lot of confusion, I meant with other people on the forums understanding of what you do actually need, and in which country!I THINK? now I know, the hard way, obviously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny29 Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hi, You have nothing to lose so try the following tactic:Write to DVLA, tell them you do not accept that all correspondence has to go through the courts now because your issue is with them and their apparent inability to deal properly with a simple query sent to them X months/years ago. Then refer them to the fact that they were made well aware of your circumstances on X date and that, had they replied with the correct guidance, your present circumstances would not have arisen. Say, also that the reason the debt is so large is because they have continued to write to you at a UK address which has not applied since X date (as you informed them on X date). State that if they are unable to resolve the matter you want a full copy of their Customer Complaints procedure so that you can take the matter further and, if necessary, you will approach your MP. Then copy your letter to the court asking for the case to be suspended until DVLA deal with the issues arising from the letter.Personally, I don't hold out much hope for you as ignorance is no defence in law, but then again I used to work for H.M Civil Servant and you would be surprised how many debts are written off when someone complains vigorously!Good luck.Penny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwp5000 Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I am sorry I would have to disgree that there is confusion. Does any one actually know how long "the first few months of grace" lasts?!!! I can't see that phrase being acceptable to either English or French authorities.Any factual answers on this one gratefully received? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeJay Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 JuxtaposeI really sympathise with you on this one, I also would speak to DVLA direct, or else attempt to get a solicitor to appear for you at court. ""As to your quote "now maybe people will listen". I think you are being very harsh! I stated all the processes we have actually already completed, to be legal, and I did "listen", many times, to people, that , you don,t need a UK road licence in France!!Maybe you are a certain type of person, whom knows it all, as they say, not like silly old me, who stupidly asked a question on this forum! My first, I might add"" Unfortunately you are right in this respect, it appears that the Forum has changed in the past few years to being quite confrontational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgina Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 "Unfortunately you are right in this respect, it appears that the Forum has changed in the past few years to being quite confrontational." I agree with that one, I don't know what people get out of it. It really puts people off and reduces the number of people posting to the same ones every time!!!! who like a good fight.I can't understand people who like having a go directly at a poster instead of the point, which is to be helpful with information and share experiences. To think these people are coming to France really is depressing. I for one was very glad that you posted this question as I missed it before.Georgina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Well on reading these last two posts, I had a look through all the postings in this thread.I can only see people discussing and searching for the answers for the original poster. What I feel is happening more often than ever, is that a question is being asked and then people don't like the answers given, so they must tick the others off ! What for not agreeing with each other or not giving a "lovely" answer to what can sometimes be a serious misdemeanour (not speaking about this case in particular). You say people won't ask if it continues, don't kid yourselves, people will always ask questions and people will always answer them if possible. What people mustn't expect is just an answer what they want to hear, it doesn't work like that, very often anyway.You can't understand life every well, if you can't understand why people will argue, discuss, agree, disagree and dispute etc. It happens from Royalty, through Parliament, through school, Uni, I could go on couldn't I ? and obviously throughout life in general.To think these people are coming to France really is depressingNow that quote I do find very sad indeed. Well you don't have to meet them, don't talk to them and to be honest I am not absolutely sure what you mean by it !!Far from being the same ones, it seems to me, to be lots more different members on here now.Still I guess you can't please all the members all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Mod hat offGeorgina I am amazed, I am not sure how you square your comments here with the 'McDonalds' thread ?In anycase I think the original poster has received some very good sugestions as to a course of action, although many members do not hold out much hope of getting the fine reduced I am sure we all wish them well with their plea........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgina Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Quote: "JuxtaposeI really sympathise with you on this one, I also would speak to DVLA direct, or else attempt to get a solicitor to appear for you at court.""As to your quote "now maybe people will listen". I think you are being very harsh! I stated all the processes we have actually already completed, to be legal, and I did "listen", many times, to people, that , you don,t need a UK road licence in France!!Maybe you are a certain type of person, whom knows it all, as they say, not like silly old me, who stupidly asked a question on this forum! My first, I might add""Unfortunately you are right in this respect, it appears that the Forum has changed in the past few years to being quite confrontational.""" unquoteGay, above is a repeat of the quote which I am unable to find now as the Forum is so slow. I am just agreeing with the comments made. I did not mention the McDonalds thread, just talking generally but because of the layout of the Forum, I think it is easier to become confused about what people are talking about if you read it afterwards. Georgina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Oh, sorry Georgina, I thought you were agreeing that some members of forum were too quick to judge on the 'negative' side.Apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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