Selling our house in France

[darnsarf]

I hadn't thought about what we might do next time round. I feel disloyal to the house just thinking about it! In truth, we sort of broke all the rules before deciding to buy it. We saw an ad in a Sunday paper, flew out, compared it against 5 others we saw on the same day (just to benchmark) and put an offer in the next day. We hadn't even seriously considered buying in France so our 'research' on the process was a steep learning curve. Maybe this drove the caution. Since then (3 years ago), we've poured squillions into the renovation (probably now making it a daft financial investment). But it's very special, I love it and hope to spend a lot more time there soon.

All the above said, if I really had to do it again, knowing what I know now, I think I'd keep the UK solicitor and drop the 2nd Notaire. Our lawyer fees were very high (about 4K if I remember) and the Notaire kept on moaning about how little they earn on a house sale, compared with our 'fat cat' London lawyers. My french, whilst far from perfect, is OK (and my building terms vocab has improved enormously!) so it's more the 'put me first' bit that I'd want again, and would be prepared to pay for. If I couldn't afford the UK lawyer, I'd probably opt for the 2nd Notaire option. Not really sure why!

[John L]

To the original poster. When we sold our french house last year we were very glad we had our own notaire who spoke perfect English. The buyer was French who also had some sort of connection to their notaire and although we were supposed to get paid by a certain date after completion, there was a considerable delay and it was only due to us having our own  notaire that we were able to put pressure on the buyers notaire to get our funds.

My conclusion is that it is better to have your own notaire even though they dont dispense legal advice.

[mint]

Interesting and thanks for posting.  Will remember your post when our time comes to go through it all again.  Just don't want to bring more euros over at present because of the dire exchange rate but I am more or less settled on moving (if that isn't too much of a contradiction in terms)!

[AnOther]

Seems to be a divisive topic [:)]

In the end there is no right or wrong way, it's what you feel comfortable with and that's based on what you know of how the system works, the specific circumstances of a transaction, and crucially, if you can read and understand French or have a competant translator on hand.

We used a (French) English lawyer mainly because there were some questions about a disputed servitude but if it had not been for that we would have been content to go with the Notaire (who spoke bizarre but perfectly understandable English) with our English agent acting as translator as neccessary. It did cost a fair bit though and to be honest I'm still undecided whether it was money well spent or not [8-)]

I don't believe it is the Notaires job to suggest clauses for the CdV. Again its down to you as the buyer to:

A. know that you can insert them in the first place and

B. which ones to insert

 and this is where a 3rd party may come into play, be they French or English.

[PaulT]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Darnsarf, I wasn't going to post on this thread but I want you to know that we also appointed our own UK solicitor who is an avocat in France.  Unfortunately, the "translator", introduced to us by our sellers, was less than useless.  A sort of running warfare went on between our English solicitor and the translator and I was in the midst of it all.

[/quote]

Sweet 17 I do not think that I would be happy using a UK solicitor who is an avocat in France who needs a translator to translate the documents.

Legalise (or is it only UK legalise) is quite difficult and perhaps needs an experienced legal mind to translate. Potential for the blame game - anything goes wrong the solicitor and translator blame one another whilst you sit on the sidelines.

Paul

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Personally I have never found it particularly helpful to employ a second notaire or (UK based) solicitor when completing a French property transaction, either for myself or when advising clients/friends. Unless they are local to the area where you are intending to buy a property, at best they can only translate/interpret the documentation based on secondhand information, supplied by the parties to the transaction and their advisors.

What I have found most useful is on-the-spot advice from local people - a firm of notaires I use has five partners who are the grandchildren of the original founders (the practice was established 50 years ago) and two firms of estate agents, likewise each founded over 50 years ago, and until recently still managed by the original owners.

The sort of assistance I have had locally from these people includes a realistic assessment of local property values (how else do you know you are paying a fair price?) and in a recent transaction, complex negotiation with the DDE and the mairie over planning consents (and wording the appropriate suspensive clauses as a result). Another advantage is speed - a recent transaction took just six weeks and two days to complete, even though we had a three week delay by the vendor returning the signed compromis, due a to German postal strike. This was particularly important for the buyers who had sold up in the UK and were living in a rented villa during their property search.

I can understand that uncertainty and lack of familiarity with the French legal system may influence some people to seek 'external' advice but I would question its value for the above reasons.

Peter-Danton de Rouffignac

www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

[cooperlola]

People should do what they feel comfortable with, and - to some extent - what they can afford!

I met our sellers' notaire on my own and - as with so many things in life - ultimately had to trust my own instincts about him.  He seemed to me to be a straightforward and competent person, and so he proved to be.  We had a translator at the signing (as my o/h's French isn't that great) and he had to sign all the documents to confirm that he had explained all the details to us.  Thus, I guess, we could have had some comeback at him if we'd felt the translator had mislead us in any way.

The first house we ever bought in the UK was an experience which has made me think that UK solicitors (however apparently competent in their own field) aren't always so great either.  When we went to sign the contract, the solicitor said to us: "I haven't actually read this, but they're all much the same.  Sign here..."  As you can imagine, for a young couple buying their first ever home this was not reassuring!  British or French, there are good and bad advocates/solicitors/ notaires etc everywhere.  The trick is to be able to spot the good ones.

[Cat]

A post has been removed from this thread, as it was advertising, and against the code of conduct.

Please do not advertise or post your personal details, products or services on the message boards. Any advertising without permission will be removed.

[Panda]

Hi

Mine was removed too!!  I was only saying that the information in the post was 'duff', interestingly this was the first post by this person whose ID also included the word duff!

Panda

[Cat]

You have a PM Panda [;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

There's nothing special about the Brits buying houses in France - the processes are exactly the same as for the French.

In terms of things like tax and inheritance law, the average Frenchman probably knows less about this than we do on this forum, so in common with almost everyone else in France, he relies on his notaire for proper legal advice to optimise his own situation.

The only difference is that most Brits don't speak the language, so if the notaire cannot provide the necessary information in English, then a translation service is a must.  The only real issue is whether appointing a UK/France specialist solicitor to pass on the same information in English represents better value for money than appointing a straightforward translator.

 

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

 The only real issue is whether appointing a UK/France specialist solicitor to pass on the same information in English represents better value for money than appointing a straightforward translator.

[/quote]

My only issue with that statement is that if it were purely for translating then I agree, but we are talking about a legal document here and I for one do not fully understand the full implications of the French law whether it is written in French, English or double dutch I needed to know and understand what I was signing. 

[Sunday Driver]

Part of the notaire's function is to explain the implications of French law and the opportunity exists to ask him to clarify any points of uncertainty.

This process is the same for everyone buying a house, French or English, regardless of whether a translator is involved. The only difference in using a UK solicitor to translate and explain the French law is that one is paying a bigger fee to achieve the same result.

 

[woolybananasbrother]

The agent through whom I bought my house made an interesting point: she prefers to use a salaried notaire rather than a partner as (s)he is more responsive to clients' needs, particularly in terms of time.

And the thorough search he did over an issue concerning my property was outstanding and explained perfectly, I must say.

I really felt he was interested in the job he was doing. We even had a fascinating discussion about the history of the property.

But I did have to suggest that he rethink the shirt and tie combinations he seemed to favour. He admitted under interrogation that it was his wife's choice. Poor chap.

[Rob Roy]

I have just been reading through this and was wondering how French people ever manage to buy/sell their houses without all the various lawyers, solicitors, individual notaires etc, etc, being involved - then I read the voice of sanity in Sunday Driver's and Woolyb's postings! What is it with the English (British?) mindset that makes them so suspicious of a different (better?) property buying system?

[Ron Avery]

Rob I was OK with your post until I read the words "voice of sanity" and "WoolyB" in the same sentence[:P]

[timc17]

Having been through the French buying system twice now i would offer a few suggestions.

1. Choose a different notaire to the sellers.

2. Check for yourself exactly what you are buying and whether this ties up with the cadastre (this should now be possible via the net).

3. If you can't speak French employ a translator.

4. Make a French will.

5. Don't be afraid to ask questions during the final signing because afterwards is too late. 

[Alex H]

[quote user="timc17"]

2. Check for yourself exactly what you are buying and whether this ties up with the cadastre (this should now be possible via the net).

[/quote]

Sounds useful - where exactly - do you have a link?

[Clair]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1217446/ShowPost.aspx

[Belle]

How does selling and buying work in france, do you have to have extra money available to give the deposit when signing the compris de vente (if that's not spelt right sorry) and what happens at the final signing, do you have to rush from one to the other, hope some-one understands what I'm getting at. Thankyou.

[Morbihan Properties]

[quote user="Belle"]How does selling and buying work in france, do you have to have extra money available to give the deposit when signing the compris de vente (if that's not spelt right sorry) and what happens at the final signing, do you have to rush from one to the other, hope some-one understands what I'm getting at. Thankyou.[/quote]

compris de vente is correct ;o)

[gosub]

[quote user="MorbihanProperties"]

[quote user="Belle"]How does selling and buying work in france, do you have to have extra money available to give the deposit when signing the compris de vente (if that's not spelt right sorry) and what happens at the final signing, do you have to rush from one to the other, hope some-one understands what I'm getting at. Thankyou.[/quote]

compris de vente is correct ;o)

[/quote]

Is it? how about Compromis de Vente[;-)]

[Ron Avery]

Looks like a certain english speaking  property agent in Brittany needs to change its website doesn't it[:P]

[Clair]

Ooops![:$]

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Replying specifically to Belle: I recently sold my apartment (apartment A) in order to buy another (apartment B). I made it clear from the outset that the sale of A depended on my finding a replacement (B) and vice-versa, and the two transactions not only depended on each other but were supposed to happen the same day.

In the event I sold apartment A about two weeks before completing the purchase of apartment B, due to a delay in paperwork from the vendor. Technically the purchase could have fallen through at the last minute, leaving me homeless, but everything went through smoothly in the end. I left the proceeds from the sale of apartment A with the notaires (they handled both transactions, which helps) so that the funds were in place for the completion of B. Regarding the ten per cent deposit against the purchase of apartment B, I wrote a cheque for this several weeks earlier but it was held but not cashed by the agents, and on the day of the final signature 100 per cent of the purchase price of apartment B was transferred to the vendor.

So it is possible to buy and sell in one move, in circumstances like these, and it helps to have a single notaire involvedd for both transactions, and as noted above make it clear to everyone what's going on, and get their agreement. For example, I stayed in my original apartment (A) for several days after it was sold, by arrangement with its new owners.

Hope this helps.

P-D de Rouffignac

www.francemediterraneanproperty.com