Moving to France

[WendyG]

I do agree, Tony.   My French is not fluent but I can manage most things.  I have been astounded on many occasions to meet people on the ferry who say they have just bought a property in France, do not have any connections, have not spent very much time in France, do not speak any French and have totally sold up in the UK.  I often wonder how they managed and whether they gave up and returned to the UK.  They surely cannot expect French speaking Brits to constantly run around for them for free.  Non-one minds giving the odd bit of help but to go to a country not speaking any of the language is surely madness.

There are always problems arising, as they do anywhere, and it is essential to be able to cope.  Occasionally something can need the help of a French person who knows the ropes better and in those circumstances are more than willing to help sort things out.  I have neighbours - English woman married to a Frenchman and we help each other - I look after their horses when they go on holiday, pick the children up from school, take them for their swimming lessons, and they make any service type phone calls for me as I do find that can be incomprehensible at times - "I don't do telephones" is my phrase to Brits who ask for help with those.  This is co-operation and not taking advantage.

I have equal numbers of French and English friends, join in all local activities (I am sure the French often have a good laugh at my French) they enjoy practising their English and partaking of various English goodies I bring back ( less and less as more things become available.)

Encourage everyone to take advantage of the often free French courses available so they can sort out their own problems. 

WendyG

[krusty]

Hello Wendy ....mad Steve here , I am one of the ones you must have met on the ferry . [:D] 3 years on and I am still here.And no, I do not have Brits running around for me.

I find info I need on the net , and take a dictionary with me. I am having French lessons but it is not easy when you were never taught it at school.

I have not come across anything I can not cope with yet , but if I do I will pay for a translator.

To those who are having a whinge about helping their fellow Brits .........if you dont like it ....dont do it.[Www]

[cooperlola]

Sweets - ask your o/h (and those other people whom you help out) what he would do if you were in a car accident and unconscious for ten days, in intensive care for a month, and in hospital for six months or more after that?   My o/h, who at least had A level French but very rusty as it's over 40 years ago, has always tried to join in in French but does struggle with complicated things, has had a real baptism of fire over the last few months.  I don't know what he would have done if his language skills had been non existant.

Cerise, Tony and Wendy, I am with you.  It's so selfish to expect somebody else to always be on hand to sort out your problems.  Would those who expect it ever think that their neighbours in the UK would help them with tax returns/car registration/doctor's visits etc.  No way, Jose. So why is it acceptable here?  Now, I don't mind helping out a bit with close friends, but if they don't ever make the slightest effort to learn the lingo, my patience would run out pretty quickly, I am sure.  Nobody likes to be taken for granted and in my case, it's not a good idea as now I'm not in a position to continue to help out.

On the other hand, I'd never say don't come if you don't speak French.  Simply if you are coming, make the effort to learn, and don't rely on others to do your work for you.  They have a life too. 

[tuppence]

I find it difficult to converse in French over the phone as the speed of the French speaker is frightening (as we are to them I guess). So I don't particularly do phone calls. However, although I would say that my spoken french is passable, I have found that the French people are willing to help you. I have been to the Hotel des Impots, sous prefecture, doctors, dentists and garages and have met with those people who are pleased to help if you have a difficulty getting your message across. So don't despair, you don't always have to drag a French speaking ex-pat with you. Just do as some of the other posters have said, learn some basics and the French will always respond well (IMO).

tuppence

[Cat]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

 

Stands back and waits for the onslaught ..............

[/quote]

I won't disagree with you Tony.

I was asked by the Maire to stand for election last year.  Why?  For no other reason than that I speak English, and so could handle the problems of the English speaking community.  In the end I said  thanks but no thanks, and Mr Cat (who has far more experience in these things and was eminently more suited to the task) stood and was elected.  He does a far better job than I could ever have done.

I do a fair bit of work for the community, and that sometimes involves stepping in when the language skills of others are not good enough. Although I don't resent it, I do sometimes wonder how people can live full-time in a country for 5 years or more and still be unable to manage basic communication.

[Iceni]

[quote user="Cat"]

I was asked by the Maire to stand for election last year.  Why?  For no other reason than that I speak English, and so could handle the problems of the English speaking community. 

[/quote]

Positive discrimination rules, ok ? Perhaps there is a Quango somewhere checking that local councils have met their quota of minorities and handing out grants accordingly. Or perhaps there should be ?

As for those who find themselves used and abused as a free handholding service etc and complaining about it - the solution lies in your own mouth - to quote the diminutive Nancy "just say no".

John

 

[Patf]

John - that's what I said to a friend who wanted me to ring to cancel a cable channel as, like others , I hate speaking in french on the phone.

She has been here 22 years! A french friend of theirs had also tried unsuccessfully.

Anyway I agreed to try once, and if no good, no more. So I went through the "tappez" routine more or less randomly, and got through to the right dept [:)]

So now I have a reputation as expert on french phoning - which I don't want.

To return to the OP, don't be put off, it's worth a try for the adventure, but make sure you have a safety net if it doesn't work out.

[Belle]

Do you know, reading all of these posts makes very sad that all of you are whingeing about helping your fellow brits out, and it is for that reason that hubby and myself struggle on by ourselves, we have been here for three years, and realised very early on, that we wouldn't get any help from our fellow countrymen/women, it's very easy for those of you with a command of the language, to critisise those who havn't, one of the statements was that ' you wouldn't help your neighbour in England to fill out tax forms, ring garages, or help with Doctors and dentists', well yes I would, I could'nt see anyone struggle, we don't have any French neighbours that we can call on for help, a friend of ours does, they have lived here for five years, and still go to their neighbour all the time for her help, she never tells them off for not speaking enough French, and she never tells them she can't help because she has a 'life'. nothing is too much trouble for her, is that the difference, between the French and the Brits.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry Belle, perhaps we've explained ourselves badly.  It's not that we don't help people, it's that we're fed up with helping people who seem unable to help themselves because they live in a country where they haven't/can't learn the language enough to do even basic things themselves, sometimes after a number of years here - more than I've lived here for sure.

And is it a Fremnch/Brit thing?  No it isn't, perhaps it's just that those of us who do help people are in need of taking John's advice because it's time for some other helper to take over.

[Maricopa]

I am glad it's not just me.  I do genuinely worry for those with poor language skills how they would cope in an emergency, especially as is so often the case, where one partner speaks better than the other and does all the talking when necessary, and it is then that person who is in some way incapacitated.

I read or was told once, something that has always stuck in my mind, if you can't speak the language of the country you live in, then you are the equivalent of a small child, and all the needs and demands that go with that.

[quote user="Belle"]it's very easy for those of you with a command of the language, to critisise those who havn't, one of the statements was that ' you wouldn't help your neighbour in England to fill out tax forms, ring garages, or help with Doctors and dentists', well yes I would, I could'nt see anyone struggle, we don't have any French neighbours that we can call on for help, a friend of ours does, they have lived here for five years, and still go to their neighbour all the time for her help, she never tells them off for not speaking enough French, and she never tells them she can't help because she has a 'life'. nothing is too much trouble for her, is that the difference, between the French and the Brits.[/quote]

Belle, those of us who have a reasonable command of French don't mind helping those in genuine need, but some of the stuff you mention, such as ringing garages and seeing Doctors and Dentists, would any English speaker really need any help to do that in the UK?

And you are only seeing it from the stand point of someone who isn't asked for such help, because when you are asked (again) to make that call or translate this document it becomes very wearing.  Being rang up at 2230 on a Friday night to be asked to ring the Gendarmes to report a missing dog (even though the caller speaks some French) is a bit much even for someone with my patience.

As for unconditional help from French neighbours, do your friends really know what their neighbours say and think about the constant demands? 

[Belle]

I don't want this to turn into nasty banter, but I would just like to defend my last post, Maricopa, I will tell you that I know for sure that our freinds neighbour really doesn't mind helping, because she says for them to bring all their english friends that need help, when we have met her she asks us if we need her help. I also may never be asked to speak French for anyone, but since we have been here, I have helped loads of brits, which hairdressers do I use, which Dentist, which doctor speaks english, where is the cpam office, where is the tax office, what E forms shall I bring from England, I could go on and on, none of this has been a problem for us, and will continue that way.

[tuppence]

Well said Belle, I always thought that we should help people who need it. Like you I have assisted in the way you have and will continue to do so, as I would if I wewre in the UK

tuppence

[Jo]

[quote user="Belle"]I don't want this to turn into nasty banter.[/quote]

Ditto to that Belle[:)]

I work (in the UK ) for a company with 300+ employees, I have now either completed or helped to complete about 50% of the tax returns. Why? because the staff asked me to help,

Do onto others...................[:)]

[mint]

Whoa, there, steady on, for goodness' sake. 

Has anybody said they won't help?  Have they?  No, not a single poster that I could see.

It's not unreasonable to expect people to try and do things for themselves, is it?  If they are not children or mentally defective, I see no very good justification for them not even bothering to learn.

The times I have heard the very people who are always asking for help say, "Oh, I can't be bothered with all that!  I'm too (an excuse which is usually along the lines of old, lazy, bad memory, etc)"

They are also the people who don't attend the classes that are offered, watch the TV, listen to the radio, use the language tapes, read the books, etc....................

Not only that, they also tend to be the very same ones who don't register their cars, don't do tax returns, work on the black for other Brits and so on.  I can see it could be because, without the any of the necessary language skills, doing these essential things must seem insurmountable.

BTW, these remarks are not aimed at anybody on the forum in particular.  I make them because I know people just like these in my real rather than my virtual life.

Don't get me wrong, I accept that people can do what they like or want to but I don't see why I should spend hours of my time explaining, cajoling, persuading (as I used to do when I first arrived) in order to help. 

I still help if I am asked (too soft in the heart or in the head, I suppose) but I don't go out of my way to offer because I don't like to be made to feel like some do-gooder, busybody or worse.

I wasn't going to contribute any further on this thread but it just isn't true to make out there are French speakers on here who are somehow mean and unhelpful.

 

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Belle"].... but I would just like to defend my last post, Maricopa, I will tell you that I know for sure that our freinds neighbour really doesn't mind helping, because she says for them to bring all their english friends that need help, when we have met her she asks us if we need her help..[/quote]

No need to defend anything.

Sounds like a really nice neighbour.

[Cerise]

No-one has said they won't help, and it is not helpful to say don't help if you don't like it.  It would take a harder heart than mine to turn away the folk with sick children, run over cats, husband on life support machine (yes really!), those with severe financial problems, etc etc.   Equally it is much harder for me to say no when the person asking for help is the French doctor, dentist, vet etc when they are faced with an English client who can't understand them.  Unfortunately I have am not retired and have an already full life.  When someone gets me out of bed at 1.00 am because they don't know where the doctors is and they can't follow instructions, or when someone leaves me a message saying can I call urgently only for me to find that they want me to call the TV repair man as husband can't watch the rugby (happened only the other week) then I'm not impressed.

There may well be generous people who want to help full time, well good for them.  I have a B& B, 2 part time jobs and my husband works full time.  I'm a councillor and I volunteer at the library - that's enough for me without the phone ringing every 5 minutes for help for someone who doesn't even possess a dictionary!  Furthermore many of these people never say thank you.  I'll help anyone in a real emergency, but I really believe they should at least try to do things themselves first.

[mint]

Well said, Cerise!

It's so much easier to not even try, isn't it?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi

Really interesting post.  Wouldn't you agree though that in the UK most of us find it irritating and perplexing when non-english speakers move into the UK permanently and then seem to make very little effort to learn English either in the short term or long term?  Why should the French (or any other nationality) feel any different in their country?  No offence to anyone intended, but surely commitment to the country should include commitment to the language.

We are planning to move to France in the next 2-3 years.  We can speak very basic French already, but wouldn't dream of making such a colossal move without putting the time, effort and education in to become as proficient as possible at both spoken and written French BEFORE the move.  Anyone who does move to France should surely be prepared to work bl***y hard on their language skills from day 1 so they can fully integrate (and cope)?  Obviously it must take a good while to feel confident in most circumstances, and some initial support and help from a friendly ex-pat would be a welcome bonus, but I can understand the frustration expressed by some of the previous posters when the same people keep coming back and don't seem to be willing to put the level of commitment in to learn.  I am sure many French people will fall over backwards to help, but what I am certain of from my own experience of visiting France is that any effort to communicate in French rather than English goes a very very long way indeed! 

[YCCMB]

I think Cerise, Tony and all the others who have pointed out the amount of personal time and effort they put in to help people are to be applauded. As I read it, the point they are making is not that they are unprepared to help, but that they get a bit hacked off when they are taken for granted. And who wouldn't?

I don't live in France, but when I'm there, I often get asked to do stuff for friends because they can't do it themselves. I seldom mind, even though it's supposedly my "holiday" that I'm giving up part of to be helpful. I know that all the people I do help would do what they could for me if I was in a similar situation. I've done all kinds of stuff in my holiday time: interpreting at the Gendarmerie for someone who was worried they were suspected of attempted manslaughter, standing in for people at a bornage, finding and phoning artisans, sourcing materials, interpreting in meetings with notaires and at the Mairie.......but sometimes (such as the time someone needed a gardener to mow the grass while they were away, and after finding someone, they asked me to phone in the middle of a party at their house, where I was surrounded by fellow Brits saying "tell him this" and "ask him that" and "explain so-and-so") I began to feel like a performing seal. Deep down, I don't feel I AM helping people, because I'm giving them the opportunity NOT to try and sort things out for themselves. Of course, there are occasions where the sheer enormity of the situation is too much for a basic French-speaker, but on the other hand, "I'm not very good on the phone" is a problem that no individual is going to overcome by running to someone else each time they are faced with having to do it.

[mint]

Ah, Betty, the Voice of Reason, as I would expect!

But where have you been all this long time and does it take a real impassioned discussion like this one to bring you back?[:D]

[Benjamin]

No one seems to give any leeway for a person's age when they arrive here. I believe 30 years old is the acknowledged cut off point for being able to easily absorb new information so some may just find it difficult to take on a new language.

The ease of shopping in supermarkets does away with any requirement to speak the language to feed or water oneself.

Looking the relevant words up in a dictionary is a good way to try but how often does a conversation go exactly to plan but at least it shows a willingness to try. Maybe it's just around this part where the locals are used to welcoming holiday visitors from many countries but there is a fair amount of English spoken so it's easy to be a little bit idle.

Mrs Benjamin has recently spent time in hospital and was looking forward to increasing her French language skill (I'm the, not very good, French speaker) but everyone including the lady who brought the food wanted to practice their English!

Bon courage.

 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Benjamin"]No one seems to give any leeway for a person's age when they arrive here. I believe 30 years old is the acknowledged cut off point for being able to easily absorb new information so some may just find it difficult to take on a new language.

[/quote]

It's worse than you think. Arguably, and according to many linguists, a person's ability to learn a foreign language starts to diminish exponentially from the age of.........................eleven. However (and only IMO) most people learning French are NOT total beginners but what we refer to as "false beginners", as only a few have never spent some time learning French at school or have simply absorbed the odd word of the language through holidays, TV, films, the written word...

Age is not a barrier to learning. I've had a student learning English with me for the last three years. He's in his 70's, and there's no doubt about it, he'll never be bilingual. His greatest attribute is his dedication to trying. In those three years, he's never missed a lesson except through illness, and however difficult he's finding something, he tries. I have nothing but admiration for him, and yes, if needed, I'd go the extra mile to help him, because he's done everything in his power to help himself.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Mrs Benjamin has recently spent time in hospital and was looking forward to increasing her French language skill (I'm the, not very good, French speaker) but everyone including the lady who brought the food wanted to practice their English!

Bon courage.


 
[/quote]

Why not go for a win-win situation in a case such as this. Your wife could have talked to them in French and they could reply in English.

Remember being in a restaurant and there was a couple with two children. She spoke in French and he spoke in English. I thought what a great way for the kids to learn AND they know which language is which from which parent was speaking.

Paul

[DerekJ]

[quote user="P2"]

Why not go for a win-win situation in a case such as this. Your wife could have talked to them in French and they could reply in English.

Remember being in a restaurant and there was a couple with two children. She spoke in French and he spoke in English. I thought what a great way for the kids to learn AND they know which language is which from which parent was speaking.

Paul

[/quote]

We do this with our neighbours grandson (aged about 22). He speaks to us in english, we speak to him in french. Both sides get things wrong, much laughter and both sides correct the other in a gentle and humourous way. A very pleasant and beneficial experience all round.

[Stan Streason]

Reading this thread I am beginning to feel a bit guilty about asking one of my new neigbours where the best place to buy logs locally was.

On a more serious note, I have hotel and restaurant French and need to bone up a bit more for trips to our new maison secondaire.  I can hold my side of a conversation easily enough but get a bit lost if the reply is off from what I expect.   I have got through side 1 of Michel Thomas a couple of times but I once played all that COMFOOORTAAAABLE... stuff to a frenchman and he laughed his socks off so I am not sure if it is worth percevering with.

Any views please?

PS I am mid fifties so apparently approaching senility