Generosity ?

[idun]

When I talk to friends some are very generous with their families and others are not even though they could.

Some people believe that their offspring have to wait for their inheritance, ie when they have gone. Others believe in making life easier for their families and can see no reason for them to wait, as money is just stood there, doing nothing.

I understand that everyone will have a different view of this, but.............is it that bad/good to give a hand........ or that bad/good to make children wait? 

I would appreciate the variety of views the posters on this board offer.

[Chancer]

I dont think that parents should give their offspring anything either during or after their lifetime except a good upbringing and the confidence and life skills to make their own way in the world.

A farming couple I think would reasonably want to pass on what they have built up but of course unless they only had one child it just gets divvi'd up and sold off  there being nothing for future générations.

I always find it kind of sad when someone I know that is reasonably well off, in their middle ages suddenly buys a new car when they had only just done so one or two years before, they go on a better than normal Holiday and all of their siblings do the same.

What was the point of their parents scrimping and saving in retirement years when they could have done so much more or lived better themselves, they earned the money for their retirement, do their comfortably off middle aged children really appreciate another new car or an extra Holiday this year?

When I was 21 my Grandfather sent me £500, I really appreciated it, I used it towards a deposit on my first step on the property ladder, neither of my sisters even wrote to thank him, one used the money to pay the interest for a couple of months on the huge credit card debt she had amassed, the others husband promptly left her with a clear conscience now that she had a few bob.

Looking back I would rather my grandfather had enjoyed the money himself but I think passing some one to younger relatives while you are still alive to see if it benefits them is something that I may one day do.

[Lehaut]

I think its a very limited criteria to judge money as a measure of generosity. We stopped working 18 years ago as part of a planned early "retirement". Our income reduced to a seventh of its previous level, but we had something which, imo, has had a far greater value than money; time. This we shared equally between maintaining a good quality of live for ourselves and our two children. We were always there for them and have had the time to fully support them in areas where money cannot help. Like sitting down every evening and helping with homework. They have wanted for nothing in the material world during their childhood. I would say with some confidence that the choice we made to be generous with our time (at a considerable financial cost to ourselves) far out weighs any financial generosity we could have made. Neither of us have had any inheritance.

[Gluestick]

For myself, I believe excess generosity (financially) removes the need to work and achieve.

It is much the same with inheritance: which, let's face it, has been the root cause of socio-economic problems in Great Britain.

I have much respect for the ethos promoted by Lehaut: more so in a sad period in Western life where obsessive and conspicuous consumption has created a society where possessions are more important than people and even society itself.

When people extol a person on the venal grounds of "Yes but look how money he/she is earning/worth!"

I respond: "Yes; and so are the ladies of the night, working in Park Lane. Unfortunately, however, in a few short years they will be hawking their tawdry and tired wares outside Bayswater Road tube station!"

[vette]

I recently helped my daughter by giving her some money, quite a bit actually.

The reason for my charitable act was that she was in a bit of a temporary financial fix. She works very hard and had more than one job in an effort to make it into Theatre and TV. Fortunately, she has now landed her dream role and is in demand from various production companies. Earning more money too! So good on her. She wanted to pay me back but I refused her offer.

I couldn't be more proud of her and helping out seemed the right thing to do.

As for another person, brother in law, I wouldn't give him a cent. The reason for that is that he is always on the scrounge and never pays anyone back.

I only found out the extent of how much he had borrowed from my wife after she had sadly passed away. £20,000 and it all went on beer and gambling!

So, some I will help and others I won't. Simple.

[Gluestick]

Backing a son or daughter to achieve something worthwhile, isn't, to me, quite the same as other acts of financial support, Vette.

You actually invested in her business, in a rather surreal way. Personally, I would have agreed a repayment schedule and then banked the money and left it in trust for her later on.

Why?

Since it is all part of discipline and learning about life's harsh realities.

Far too many parents my wife and I know have acted, repeatedly, as the free bank of Mum and Dad: fine in extreme matters of urgency, however, not if one is simply bailing them out of financial difficulties they themselves have created by their own lack of financial probity and prudence.

To do so will mean they have failed to learn a basic lesson concerning money.

After all, we have lived through the nonsense of the Thatcher "Yuppy" era, when the grey hairs it was eventually realised, were financing all the excessive loans and debt of the feckless; and a worse later period when personal debt ballooned to stratospheric levels.

British society is now experiencing a new phenomenon: what are called "The Working Poor" who are (they believe) middle class, both have well paid jobs; a huge mortgage, two cars one of which is a flashy 4X4, block pave drive, large extravagant conservatory etc etc. Yet have to resort to food banks to eat!

Smart!

[Rabbie]

There is not a simple answer to this question. It all depends on the individual circumstances of both giver and receiver. If my daughter desperately needed money for an unforeseen emergency then of course I would help her to the best of my ability and of course she will inherit when my wife and I die. Otherwise we all muddle through neither very rich nor very poor in financial terms but with the pleasure of good family relations.

Of course what I would do if I ever won the lottery remains a hypothetical question since I rarely buy a ticket.

[NickP]

"It is much the same with inheritance: which, let's face it, has been the root cause of socio-economic problems in Great Britain."

Any chance of an explanation for this idea? In plain English please as I'm a simple lad at heart and wouldn't take offence if you keep it short, and without lots of fancy words that I'd have to look up.

Plus a question to Chancer, so what does anybody who is lucky enough to pass away and leave a few quid behind do with it. After all if you can't give it to your own, what do you suggest. Leave it to the government or maybe the cat's home?

[idun]

For me it isn't the inheritance thing that has caused the socio economic problems it was the greed culture inspired by Thatcher and continued by her alter ego Blair. The young are suffering the fall out from it and I can but feel for them.

I think that none of us should feel pressured into giving anything we don't want. A good friend's sister is very very rich, millions to her name. She now does what she calls good works, going and talking to people, but her purse is a tightly sealed as a duck's bottom and that is waterproof. If say she was walking past a bus stop and someone was upset that they couldn't find the last 20p for their fare, she would walk on by. My friend wouldn't, I wouldn't.  We are all different.

Also, each of us has different needs too.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NickP"]"It is much the same with

inheritance: which, let's face it, has been the root cause of socio-economic

problems in Great Britain." Any chance of an explanation for this idea? In

plain English please as I'm a simple lad at heart and wouldn't take offence if

you keep it short, and without lots of fancy words that I'd have to look

up.[/quote]

With pleasure, Nick.

After the Norman invasion, Guillaume, displaced existing landowners and gave

ownership rights in perpetuity to his leading knights; "Sir Guy, you have

fought exceedingly well, today; I award you Kent!"

Many of today's British Aristocrats owe their names and wealth back to this

time: as can be readily perceived from the names. De Montfort, e.g.

Following monarchies continued with similar practice.

The total land mass of the British Isles, in toto, is relatively small: the

total Developed land is only

circa 1.5%!

 

Land built on

Source: NEA
UK	1.5%
England	2.3%
Scotland	0.4%
Wales	0.9%
Northern Ireland	0.8%

 (NEA= National Ecosystem

Assessment: Published – June 2012)

 This pattern of ownership continued, until the late 19^th

Cent. When Liberal reformers determined to change the dynamic and spread the

abundant wealth of this once great country around.

 (N.B. Victorian manufacturers continued the trend, having

dragged themselves up by their boot straps, they proceeded to chase knighthoods

and peerages and also married their daughters into potless dissolute

aristocratic families who were desperate for cash and drooled over large dowries,

so they might continue shootin’, huntin’, fishin’ gamblin’ and wenchin’!)

 The great Liberal Lloyd George (much supported then by

Churchill before he “crossed the floor”!) was convinced in order to achieve a

“Redistribution of Wealth” this should be carried out by punitive taxation. As

Churchill crowed at the time, “We are going to tax the rich like they have

never been taxed before!”

The result, called The People’s Budget, was in fact enacted

by Lloyd George’s political colleague, Herbert Asquith, in 1909: but was, not

surprisingly roundly rejected by the Lords, which was jammed full of

Aristocrats and was Conservative.

 The argument almost caused a constitutional crisis and was

eventually passed by the Lords in 1910.

People's Budget:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Budget

 So, what actually happened? Well, not surprisingly the

mega-wealthy aristos toddled off to see their accountants and clever tax

lawyers and by creating trusts, ensure their estates would remain. Familiar

story?

 The reality, today, is, as reported by ONS (Office for

National Statistics 2003/04: Annual Wealth of Britain Report), circa 66% of the whole capital wealth of

Britain, is represented by residential property!

 And, as we know, the supra-wealthy are avoiding more taxes

than ever before, leaving us little guys and gals to pay increasing amounts of

our hard won wealth in tax.

 All that the core philosophy of the People’s Budget was to

shift a rapidly increasing tax burden onto those who worked and the lower

middle class.

 And perhaps worse still, governments since Heath in the

early 1970s, bereft of creative real ideas to expand the economy, have resorted

to Boom-Bust, on the back of what is called “Slack Money”. Heath-Barber: then

Thatcher-Lawson; and finally, the worst one of all, Blair-Brown.

(Slack Money: Def. Allowing Money Supply to expand too fast; lowering base rates; allowing banks to lend like an octopus on speed; zero monetary and finance controls and regulation).

 

 

[NickP]

Thank you Gluestick, very kind of you. So does that mean that if I say knickers to my kids; your not getting what like I haven't spent, who do I give it to to save the country from rack and ruin, and please don't tell me the answer is Chancer, as being a Dorking boy that would go against the grain as he does have history of being involved with Crawley. Oh no he doesn't, Oh yes he does!

Anyway Merry Christmas to one and all, whoever you leave your assets to.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NickP"]Thank you Gluestick, very kind of you. So does that mean that if I say knickers to my kids; your not getting what like I haven't spent, who do I give it to to save the country from rack and ruin, and please don't tell me the answer is Chancer, as being a Dorking boy that would go against the grain as he does have history of being involved with Crawley. Oh no he doesn't, Oh yes he does!

Anyway Merry Christmas to one and all, whoever you leave your assets to.[/quote]

Nope!

If one has a modicum of disposable wealth, then one toddles off to Andora, buys a piede a terre, applies for Andoran citizenship and a passport, resides in any EU state for one day less than 90 days (at the time: thus if one resides in Northern France, then that's a weekend hols in Belgium and stock up on beer!): and becomes what is called  PT (permanent traveller). Leaving the bulk of assets in, say Luxembourg in an investment trust.

If the kids have been reasonably good, then arrange once your spouse and you have shall we say shuffled off this mortal coil, then they as beneficiaries to the central trust, inherit under careful terms and conditions. Mainly in order the estate avoids UK Inheritance Tax.

Less seriously, I reciprocate your kind good wishes.

Happy Christmas to you all and a healthy, prosperous and above all tranquil 2015!

    Joyeux Noël ! Feliz Navidad !  di Natale felice ! Καλά Χριστούγεννα ! Felix Nativitatis !

[lindal1000]

My parents very generously gave each of us (3 in total) a sum of money to secure the deposit on our first homes.. and very grateful we all were at the time. My mother never spent any of her money while she was alive, convinced she might need it time. It was quite sad to me to think that she didn't spend it more 'generously' on herself while she was alive. I don't plan to follow in her footsteps and am doing my best to ensure that I die broke. I guess it depends on how much you have to leave and whether you trust your kids to spend it wisely.

Whatever you get for Christmas, I hope you spend it wisely and it gives you pleasure

[Chancer]

[quote user="NickP"] and please don't tell me the answer is Chancer as he does have history of being involved with Crawley. Oh no he doesn't, Oh yes he does! Anyway Merry Christmas to one and all, whoever you leave your assets to.[/quote]

No denials, born in the front bedroom of a Council house in Bangladeshville, brought up there and all my blood relatives still live there, somewhere along the line I got Lucky and bucked the trend.

Happy Christmas to you Nick.

[DraytonBoy]

We have spent over two decades bringing up children and are hopefully into our last year with the youngest joining his three siblings at Uni. However our eldest son has decided that we have not shelled out enough over the years as he's not paid the rent for his apartment for several months and we had a visit from the bailiffs last week demanding a four figure sum as we are guarantors. It seems that he's spent all his grant and more on going out etc and is skint. But that's okay as we've got 0000's under the bed - NOT!

This is not the first time we've had to bail him out but at the moment we simply do not have any spare cash only a small bit of savings which we'll have to use.

So should we say enough is enough and refuse to help again or should we just accept that until we die they have first call on any money we have?

[Chancer]

You should absolutely say enough is enough.

This is not aimed at you as I have no idea of what has brought your son to the place he is currently in but in general I think the lesson "enough is enough" cannot be learnt at a Young enough age.

I think mine must have been when I was 6, I thought my James Bond Aston Martin was indestructible like the one in the film so whacked it with a lump of concrete, cue tears, grovelling to parents "bigboysdiditranaway" etc, I learnt the lesson so well that it has stuck with me.

Sadly I on several occasions I have been the one to give the enough is enough lesson to supposedly mature responsible adults, all of whom have been women who it seems genuinely believed that when they asked to borrow money, usually in the voice that they perfected in childhood with their fathers that it would never need be paid back.

On asking for money on the second occasion and being refused because they had never paid back the previous loan they all uttered the same words "Oh I didnt think you wanted me to pay you back!" and I include both my sisters in that. 

[Gluestick]

DB: time to say enough!

If this young man is totally unable to balance his own modest budget, then he urgently requires a sharp lesson in reality! Go and find a job, leave university and graft to earn a living, like the rest of us had to do!

Unfortunately, as guarantors for the lease, you could well be liable to pay the agreed rent until the lease expires, unless the landlord can easily re-let the property: however, only if and when your son vacates.

However in order to get him out, then the landlord must use the County Court process, firstly and apply for a possession order.

Unfortunately, you will be held liable for all costs and any rental losses and statutory interest at 8%.

Sadly, when parents (or anyone) support and re-support such feckless behaviour, it is identical to giving cash to a compulsive gambler, or a drunk. They will promise everything, passionately assert they have changed and "learned their lesson", take your cash and head off straight to the betting shop.

I so very sorry for you both and at this time of year, too.

[AnOther]

We've helped our two out along the way but when I retired we told them that the bank of mum and dad was closed for business, they're both married and have got more disposable than us now so if there are any begging letters to go out they will more likely be from us to them [:P]

Merry Christmas [B]

[Patf]

When we were both working we helped out our parents financially, and in other ways.

We also helped our children a bit, especially one of the girls, who was something of a spendthrift, though she has reformed. When she was at uni she managed to build up an overdraft - I rang the bank and asked them not to lend her any more, and the man said "can't do that!" But we drew the line then with her.

We also try to help out one of our sons, who lives in India on a very low wage and has 4 foster children.

Like ANO we're now in the position of possibly needing help from them - they're all working, and oldest son is very generous, helped pay off a bank loan, though we're paying him back. Also offered to buy this house off us,  when we were trying to sell it, but couldn't lumber him with that

So hopefully what goes around comes around.

What really appals me is the way some parents spend a fortune on their children's clothes, toys etc -  as Gluestick says, takes away all motivation to strive and be self sufficient and they'll grow up thinking things are just going to fall into their laps.

[Jonzjob]

When we moved over here 10 years back I told my 2 that we were going on a ski adventure, spending the kids inheritance, and they both said "you earned it and you spend it". It didn't stop son from asking if we would mortgage our house here so he wouldn't go bankrupt a few years later though!! You can guess the answer to that one [:-))]

Our idea is that when we get to doddering to manage our house and 3000 sq m garden we will sell and rent and spend [:D] My 2 are now doing OK for themselves and don't need our help any more I am glad to say.

as for the original questin. We give a donation to a few charities that we think are worthwhile. we don't have loads, but we will help when and where we can. Generosity? No not really, that is just how we are and have always been.

[NormanH]

A relevant story from The Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11317992/Gwyneth-Paltrow-My-father-taught-me-hard-graft.html

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]A relevant story from The Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11317992/Gwyneth-Paltrow-My-father-taught-me-hard-graft.html

[/quote]

The old Yorkshire motto comes to mind, Norman:

Treat 'em mean: keep 'em keen!

[idun]

If he did, well that was fine. But we should not forget that he and his wife an actress 'knew' everyone in the business. With exactly the same talent, some other young actress without 'contacts' would surely have a lot more problems 'making it'.

An interesting thread and still giving me much food for thought.

[DraytonBoy]

We have always tried to instill a work ethic into our kids and all four have been able to find jobs outside of school/Uni. This has though not stopped the eldest two spending every centime they earn (and more) and over the last two years have bailed them out many times. However following the eldest son's latest efforts to bankrupt us we have taken the painful decision to refuse any further demands for financial help from all four. It seems harsh on the youngest two but as they are more careful with their money we don't feel too bad.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="DraytonBoy"]We have always tried to instill a work ethic into our kids and all four have been able to find jobs outside of school/Uni. This has though not stopped the eldest two spending every centime they earn (and more) and over the last two years have bailed them out many times. However following the eldest son's latest efforts to bankrupt us we have taken the painful decision to refuse any further demands for financial help from all four. It seems harsh on the youngest two but as they are more careful with their money we don't feel too bad.[/quote]

DB: a very wise, although I'm sure, painful decision.

There does a come a tipping point, where continued and repeated assistance, be it financial or other is taken for granted and has, to the recipient, no value.

I always liken such ongoing support to that given to a compulsive gambler, wino or drug addict. It is all identical in terms of obsessive addictive behaviour.

A bit of pain should ensure gain: eventually.

Every best wish for 2015.