EU Referendum

[woolybanana]

Our fishing industry crashed when Iceland reclaimed its waters.

What makes anyone think that applying territorial rights would change much for the industry? There would still be quotas and foreign ships badged as British. Or would we try to stop 'those berluddy foreigners' registering companies in UK so they can fish here? Seems the heart of Brexit really.

And the fish would still go abroad in big fridges as the Brits only seem to eat anything fishy if it is wrapped in batter or breadcrumbs.

[PaulT]

Remember being in Scotland a few years back at a fishing port. Talking to one of the locals who said that most of the shellfish is transported by lorry to Spain which probably explained the Spanish registered lorry there.

Yes, countries in the Euro - Greece seems not to have met the criteria but let in to swell the numbers and look what has happened.

The Eastern bloc countries being allowed in - as far as I am aware they are net beneficiaries of funding. I can only assume that the reason for bringing them in is to alienate them from Russia.

[woolybanana]

One would hope that bringing the Eastern bloc countries into the EU gave them some hope after the oppressive years under the Soviet Union and before that, the Germans. They are sovereign nations and have grabbed every chance that the EU has offered them in terms of bettering themselves and contributing to the EU, as opposed to the Greeks and Italians and even the French who see the EU as a giant cow to be milked for their benefit.

[EuroTrash]

Idun, your post struck a lot of chords with me and especially " For all we have the high unemployment, we are being sent immigrants by literally the bus load. So who is paying, will they be getting jobs over and above locals? I do not know."

The UK talks a lot about transparency but it is sadly missing. I think France is better at transparency in many ways, now I might be wrong because I am a bit hazy about how it all works but there does seems to be more answerability, the commune is answerable to its residents, you can stop the mayor in the street and ask him and he will tell you, the department is answerable to the communes, and so on. And in the UK this smokescreen seems to cover the whole Brexit fiasco and beyond, nobody will give a straight answer to a straight question. When I lived in the UK the number of immigrants in my town grew month by month. There were rumours that the local council was being paid an incentive by the government for taking them, and some people said they were costing the taxpayer nothing because there was a central fund to pay for everything and some people said that wasn't the case, and some people must have known exactly what was what but they weren't saying. All most people know is that something somewhere seems not right. How can a nation can be united when nobody knows the agenda.

[Hoddy]

“All most people know is that something somewhere seems not right.”

It’s true that there has been some racism in the Brexit campaign which is a pity because cries of racism close down any sensible discussion about differences in culture, custom and language and how that affects other people.

Most of the arguments I have heard have tried to scare me into voting stay or convince me that leaving will lead me into a land of milk and honey. Neither of these arguments leave me feeling that whatever “is not right” will be improved by my vote.

[andyh4]

Idun, Eurotrash,

That phrase struck me as well, but for entirely the opposite reason.

Unless these are EU immigrants being bussed in - which I would find barely credible - these immigrants are nothing - repeat nothing - to do with the EU.

The UK opted out of an EU allocation of Syrian/Afghan migrants and chose to follow its own policy, and I see nothing wrong with that plus it shows that the EU does not hold sway over the UK.

Any non-EU immigrants arriving in the NE are therefore due entirely to UK policies and not the EU.

[EuroTrash]

You're absolutely right Andy, I got sidetracked, but my point was really to illustrate the lack of transparency in UK politics and administration. You can't get answers and if you think that people are hiding things you assume that they are doing so for a reason. Maybe they are but I think it has become a culture, nobody feels obliged to tell the great British public the full facts about anything. And then having kept them in the dark about all kinds of things that affect everybody - then suddenly they tell them to vote on something as important as this.

[NormanH]

And the gutter press fill the vacuum...

[grumpyaudeman]

Hi

I cannot vote but look forward to seeing who has the most red faces after the result whatever it is

Forget the EU the UK will never be the same again, to many arguments a bit like a divorce

[PaulT]

Read somewhere that EU nationals from other countries living in the EU have been registering to vote, putting down their nationality as British and getting a vote. Perhaps the real winners will be the lawyers in the aftermath.

Such as shame that the politicians who claim that the vote will be the most serious that people will make in their lives have failed to present their sides of the argument in a serious manner rather than using scare tactics.

[Rabbie]

I think the story about EU citizens registering as British to get a vote is an urban myth based on the fact that some councils sent out polling cards in error to EU citizens. They will not be allowed to vote.

Personally I feel that EU citizens who are long term residents of the U.K. should be allowed to vote but that's the rules.

[Jazzer]

It's getting out of hand:

Royaume-Uni : une députée pro-européenne grièvement blessée par balle, la campagne contre le Brexit suspendue

Une députée britannique se trouve dans un état critique, jeudi 16 juin, après avoir été blessée par balles jeudi à Birstall (nord de l'Angleterre), selon les médias britanniques. Jo Cox, une députée travailliste de 41 ans favorable à l'UE, aurait également été poignardée, selon la chaîne Channel 4 News. Des témoins affirment que son agresseur aurait crié "Britain First" ("La Grande-Bretagne d'abord"), au moment d'accomplir son geste. Un homme de 52 ans a été arrêté, a annoncé la police. Le camp des pro-européens a aussitôt annoncé la suspension de la campagne en vue du référendum sur le Brexit, prévu le 23 juin.

France TV Info

[woolybanana]

Given the attack on the Labour MP by someone shouting Britain First, we must wonder at the nature of some of the support which the Brexit campaign is garnering.

It would seem that the populist hooligans which have shamed England in the European Cup match towns in France must have taken their methods to the Brexit side of the debate.

Democracy is an uneasy beast to ride when intellectual debate is pushed aside by weapon carrying thugs.

[Doodle]

Well I don't know or do I? I've listened to all the debates from both sides on the TV and read various articles and well, I don't know or do I? All I hear from both sides is "If...., I believe...., I think...., that's not correct...., that is correct...." etc etc. I do think that you can fight the devil you know by just saying 'NO' others do so. The TV programme 'Very British Problems' has identified that we are terrified of saying 'NO' as we do not want to be seen as being rude, the code of conduct that somehow becomes a part of us without us knowing how it got there - so is it any wonder I don't know - or do I?

For the sake of sanity over the next few days I will repeat to myself.........

“Each morning when I open my eyes I say to myself: I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it shall be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it.”

― Groucho Marx

Mrs KG

[Rabbie]

Following the sad death of MP Jo Cox today all campaigning has been suspended. Can I please ask everyone to respect this and not contribute to this thread until the campaign resumes

[PaulT]

Sorry Rabbie cannot agree with you. There is nothing official as to why the act was carried out - the police will still be interviewing the person alleged to have carried out the act. So there is nothing really to lay the reason at the In/Out door.

The various news outlets are reporting on the campaigning until the two sides ceased for the day so discussion is not dead.

Democracy needs to go on.

[Rabbie]

Pault, I was going by what I read on the BBC website. It has just been repeated on the BBC news that all referendum campaigning has been suspended as a mark of respect. Nobody, least of all me, has suggested that the crime had or had not a connection to the debate.

[grumpyaudeman]

I agree with PaulT the politicians may have agreed but as I have no connections with the UK for 20 years so what has that got to do with me, just my health care and pension

I will stop worrying about them in deference to a women I have not known and for an unknown reason someone killed her

Its times like this I am pleased to have left the UK and its inhabitants/ Forum Moderators bonkers ideas

[Russethouse]

As a moderator may I respectfully request that as a mark of respect for murdered MP Jo Cox there are no further postings on this thread until after 1pm tomorrow ( the 17th) , 24 hours after the attack which resulted in the loss of her life.

Thank you

[Russethouse]

Thank you for your co operation

[woolybanana]

The tragic death of Jo Cox and of the folk in Orlando seem to show that simplistic populistic messages beyond the fringe of debate attract people with fragile mental states. Both of the perpetrators seem to be of this type, attracted to extremist groups because of their own character difficulties, rather than the hate filled causes they claimed to espouse.

Obama was quite right to state that the Orlando murders were not set up by IS and I think we will see that the murder of Jo Cox will have been carried out by a loner, rather than being set up by Britain First.

Both tragedies show the dangers of playing certain cards by politicians, not just race and homophobic hate.

As to the extent which Brexit supporters and the campaign are racist, my own conclusions from reading, listening and talking to people is that they are, very much so.

[DerekJ]

[quote user="woolybanana"]As to the extent which Brexit supporters and the campaign are racist, my own conclusions from reading, listening and talking to people is that they are, very much so.[/quote]

So, are you saying that all those who are going to vote for EXIT are racist?

[Judith]

I have been shocked by this murder, not that far from my home town ... and though I do not know Birstall, I do know the character of Yorkshire folk, and this is so out of character.  If it is indeed a loner, which seems somewhat probable, it is difficult to assess just how much all the recent anti-EU, anti-immigrant rants of the press, some politicians, and indeed some well known company bosses and and so-called celebrities have contributed to this tragedy.  If one is depressed, in a poor mental state, or otherwise lacking the usual capabilites to examine arguments, it does not take much to push one over the edge into irrational thoughts and actions.

All along, the referendum debate has been triggered as much by feelings as by actual facts (the lack of those facts already having been noted by several contributors to this forum), to the extent that it is almost impossible for those of sane mind to work out the pros and cons.  What it must be like for those of less sound mind, I hate to think.

Meanwhile we have lost a dedicated and energetic MP, and her husband and two young children are left grieving.

The sooner this referendum is over, the better .... and we can all return to some sort of normality.

[woolybanana]

No, Derekj, not all of them, but a significant number, however they hide this under such banners as "We want our country back", "They are taking all our jobs", "Our culture is changing" etc.

[cajal]

[quote user="woolybanana"]No, Derekj, not all of them, but a significant number, however they hide this under such banners as "We want our country back", "They are taking all our jobs", "Our culture is changing" etc.[/quote]

Wow... what a responsibility to be a party to that kind of information and statistics. By the way what sort of numbers does this term 'significant' represent? I'm sure others, as myself, are intrigued to know especially with the referendum rapidly approaching.

regards

cajal