Riots

[le bouffon]

Hoddy,one then comes up against what is racist,you do not live in france and are casting doubt on the french way of doing things,what you see and what I may see and then what the french see as racist is worlds apart,just been watching the french news and the lead was the parisian riots spreading,it is becoming a trial of strength between the police and the rioters nothing more,lets hope the cops(the good guys)win.

[Russethouse]

Le bouffon, I do not live in France either but at this moment it seems to me that the 'French way of doing things' isn't working very well, is it?

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Hi

Russethouse wrote "I am no great expert on racial discrimination or French politics but I think that if you keep in mind that on the whole people are fairly similar, they want the best for their families, they have hopes and dreams, sadness and joy, no matter what the colour of their skin or religion they practice. Also add to that that every nationality or religion has a cross section of people, industrious, lazy, good, bad etc."

Yes but with unemployment as high as it is in France and with the cost to the employer so very very expensive you have the pick of the bunch. The fact is that the yooves who are perpetrating this criminal damage are very much at the bottom of the pile and with behaviour like this are likely to remain there for ever. Society does not owe anyone a living, as a well respected politician said " get on your bike" and go and find gainful employment they might be lucky they might not be lucky. To be quite honest I personally could not care less about the whole sorry bunch they are just worthless. It's just a great pity that the police are so woefully inept at dealing with them.  

[Teamedup]

And the riots go on, yet another night............

 

[Viv]

I read that the riots are now being co-ordinated by mobile phone and militant islamists - I don't know if that's the case but it did get me thinking.

Some one previously mentioned the terrorist word and these riots would be a 'great' way for such people to cause mayhem, create instability, not to mention the financial cost which must be running into billions by now. Chaos but without committing mass murder, for which they would be widely and rightly condemned.

By 'using' riots , there seems to be less condemnation and the 'chattering classes' sit and discuss how terrible it is for the inner city ethnic youth.

 

 

[Will]

Le Bouffon, you may be surprised to learn that I think what you say is basically correct.

People forget that the whole French mindset and cultural and political values are substantially different from the English (note I don't say British, as I acknowledge that Scots, Irish and Welsh are different too). What is racism in one country is normal life in another, just as - to take another example - what is seen as generally acceptable practice in one country is regarded as animal cruelty in another. And that doesn't just apply between England and France, look at kosher and/or halal laws too.

That's not to say these issues should not be discussed, or that the English or any other nation should not have, and be entitled to express, opinions on what is happening in France. We just have to remember that we are guests in another country and have to respect the local way of life, even if we disagree with it.

There's an interesting topic at that other forum about David Blunkett, started by somebody who has lived long enough in France to know better, which is mainly about how much better off people are in France without Blunkett's brand of 'labour sleaze'. Honestly, what he did is everyday practice in French politics.

[Val_2]

I heard on the BBC today that shots had been fired at the police and a bus carrying passengers attacked. How long before its a shoot to kill policy,a total curfew in all cities and large towns and the real reasons forgotten? I for one am very disturbed and to be honest,wondering who else is going to jump onto the bandwagon of disillusioned persons.

[Baz]

Whilst this is not the height of the French tourist season, I just wonder what effect it will have on the French economy after 11 nights of rioting.

I  booked a 3 night stay in  Nice from  tomorrow some months ago to celebrate an important birthday, but have just cancelled as I do not want my celebrations to be effected by the present unrest. Whilst  Nice has had its share of trouble it is nothing compared with Paris but if my feelings are felt by others many bookings may be lost. The upsetting situation is that I have no refund claim on the Airline or travel agent as the UK foreign office only say "Visitors to the effected cities should  exercise extreme care in the affected areas and avoid any demonstrations which are taking place."

Baz

 

 

[Tourangelle]

Sorry to hear that Baz. I think you are right, the psycological effect on many will be to choose somewhere else to go for short weekend breaks, and I think Paris in particular will be affected, because people do go there for winter breaks, as well as Nice and perhaps Toulouse.

Lyon has not been affected in a major way by the riots so far. In the local paper it said 50 cars were burnt on Saturday night, which is five times more than the average weekend, but you wouldn't know anything was going on from being in the city centre. Certainly I think there is no danger in coming here for the time being, and the areas where there have been disturbances are not the places which attract tourists, so the foreign office does seems to be giving out reasonable advice, although obviously my comments are just based on my experience of one French city.

[Russethouse]

Val, my friend in Quimper says there were three cars burnt out there over the weekend - small time compared with the rest. Anything about Brest ?

PS I'll be in Quimper later this week so any disturbances may be me partying

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

lundi 7 novembre 2005, 9h08

[pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P>]

racism is alive and well on this forum sometimes it is disguised some times not but I have noticed it referring to Americans and America  I hope that now we have made the forum a racist free zone that it will also stop thank you Mr moderator

I am not sure why my post was deleted maybe because I quoted someone

 

[josa]

As far as the point raised by Baz is concerned, the effect on tourism, I was loooking to go to Lille for a couple of days with some friends, as I regularly do and often about this time of year. We have deceided to leave our trip until such time as the matter has been quietened down. I suspect I am not the only one.

 

JD

[Val_2]

Gay. Nothing in the paper about any trouble in Brest so far.I did wonder if anything would kick-off owing to the number of non-white french inhabitants there. Our french TV went bang recently and we are currently using a 30year Thorn UK one for the satellite on which we can listen to TV5 for french affairs. Burning of cars is nothing new, it even happens here in this little commune sometimes.I for one,wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of the CRS here. I think we should all spare a thought for the brave pompiers who put their lives in danger from being attacked whilst doing their duty and putting the fires out,their families must be frantic with worry!

[Quillan]

I watched the news on BBC this afternoon and was pleased to see that they got some of their facts right for a change. The bit about understanding why France had theses problems was interesting. I have been aware of the difference between the treatment of native inhabitants in 'the colonies' since school days a issue which I think is important. The English always treated these people as natives and separate where as French treated them as French irregardless of colour and religion. You can see this by just looking at how France views it’s remaining dependencies as just another department. From what I have read and seen the people in the dependencies also view them selves as French and France as the 'mother land'.

This to me seems a better way of doing things, much better than the way the English did things in the past. There is one problem however with this and that is that France really must treat them as equals and offer them the same rights as fellow indigenous French people which sadly they do not. I can, in part, understand the frustration of young French people of ethnic origin who are 2nd and 3rd generation at being told they are equal by the government when the reality of life is they are not.

With a country that has a very high rate of unemployment it is easy to for those affected to say that they didn't get a job or an opportunity because they are of a different colour or religion. It would also be naive to say this does not happen but in reality I would like to think this is not as common as we think (taking in to account the general employment problems in France). In my part of France there are people from different cultures and colour and they work quite happily along side their fellow Frenchmen/women and are treated, in general, the same as anyone else. OK I don't see that many living in my area but then perhaps coming from a large multi cultured part of the UK I have become blinkered and just see all people as being the same and coloured people don’t jump out at me.

What I did find interesting is that the BBC reporter implied that if the French did treat them differently and allowed them to maintain their native culture that the French would not have these problems because you don't have them in the UK as a result of this type of policy. If that was true then why have the UK seen riots in Bradford etc over the last few years. To be honest I don't think the English, as a nation, understand French culture and probably never will.

Another observation about France is that in general the French are more vocal than the English; they stand up more and shout more. As somebody said further up some areas in France voted 95% for Le Penn in the first round of the presidential elections back in 2001 (I think that’s the right year). I was in Bezier at the time and they too voted about the same. The thing is when I got home the way this was interpreted in the UK, the French going ultra right, being a country full of Nazis etc, etc. The point was that it was the first round of elections, it was a message to the president to sort himself out, a slap in the face by the people as it were. It worked, he changed his policies (well until after the elections) and Le Penn never really got a look in during the second round.

The French do take to the streets, look at the pension thing a year or two back. We watched the CS gas in Perpignan, cars set on fire, shop fronts stoned and it was not the only city to suffer but it was not reported so much in the UK. I am not saying that the current goings on are right and certainly the death of the first (60 year old) person is appalling as is the damage done and the length of time the current riots have been going on for.

There is for sure only, and only, one sad similarity between the UK and France and that is that if you (the government) brush things under the carpet and ignore them they will go away, wake up government they don't, they get worse. The only people in France who can sort this out is the government and I eagerly await the announcement tonight as to what will be done. Whatever it will be (the announcement) the action cannot be immediate but it MUST well thought out and be sustained and followed through unlike the last time when money was thrown at the French inner cities and then they were again ignored.

As I have bothered to write this I also wanted to address another comment made by an ex UK police officer about the 70' and 80's. I remember them well, I was in Brixton repairing equipment a few days after the riots, I remember the TV coverage, I also remember the SPG. I ran a scout troop at the time and one of the kids father was in the SPG at Brixton. He bragged about the fact they we

[Viv]

I think the BBC reporting on the riots comes accross as quite smug.

I agree Quillan with you re your comments on the differences between the UK / France on how their respective citizens with colonial origins are viewed.

I think encouraging people to retain their own culture/ customs to the extent that has occured in the UK is more exclusive than inclusive. Look at the expat community in Spain - almost two cultures etc in one country and never the twain shall meet. The only difference is that the expat community is usually educated and well off and financially self sufficient unlike some of the poorer areas in the UK and France.

 

[Christine Animal]

"To be honest I don't think the English, as a nation, understand French culture and probably never will."

Excellent observation Quillan.  

[Deimos]

[quote]I watched the news on BBC this afternoon and was pleased to see that they got some of their facts right for a change. The bit about understanding why France had theses problems was i[/quote]

In particular what Quillan said: “... who are 2nd and 3rd generation ...”

There was an interesting program on British TV a week or so ago about the psychology of suicide terrorists (wait, this is relevant). Part of this was saying who the problems can often be greater for 2nd generation immigrants. I wont go into why (because I can’t remember a lot of the points they raised – but their reasons seemed reasonable).

Ian

[SaligoBay]

I have been aware of the difference between the treatment of native inhabitants in 'the colonies' since school days a issue which I think is important. The English always treated these people as natives and separate where as French treated them as French irregardless of colour and religion.

I think this is misleading, Quillan, and the only difference is in how we're taught to think about our colonial history.  In Britain we're taught that it was a Bad Thing. 

The teaching of colonialism in French schools has been in and out of the news.  The most recent was Le Point a couple of weeks ago, which included some very interesting pictures which would look horribly familiar to you, like la Marianne walking proudly over cowering black people, or a white nun with a group of small black children carrying a sign saying "nous sommes des enfants chrétiens". 

Here's a BBC article about it from a few months ago, one of many that pop up from time to time.  I hope you find it interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4552473.stm 

"France has never taken on its colonial history. It is a big difference with the Anglo-Saxon countries, where post-colonial studies are now in all the universities. We are phenomenally behind the times."

 

[Eskenazi]

My experience re. open racism towards 'les Arabes' backs up what Hoddy says, and I would also add that in France there is a great deal of racism (from French people) towards 'les Juifs' and, increasingly, a lot of racism (from Brits) towards their own countrymen.

I also think that the 'smug' tone of BBC etc. comes from the feeling of 'Whew! So it's not really all a perfect-health-system-wonderful-education-fabulous-food society in France, after all!'

[Bobdude]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that it was Sarkozy himself who inflamed the situation after the deaths of the first two youngsters in the power substation. He couldn't resist publicly branding the demonstrators 'racaille' - a word the BBC has translated as 'scum'. Not 'scum' as in 'young hooligans and troublemakers' of any ethnic background - but he knew full well that 'racaille' is what the indigenous Algerian population were called by the French colonialists when it belonged to France. The bad feeling stems from the Algerian war of independence, ending in 1962. Yet the grandfathers and great-grandfathers of these young French people fought for France in the First and Second World Wars, and anyone born in Algeria whilst under French rule was classed as French.

 

[Quillan]

2nd = Children of imigrants, 3rd = grand children of imigrants.

Yes I agree, the program you talked about I saw also. What was interesting was the Asian Muslim family who had been left some land in Pakistan I believe. They all spoke with an East London accents and were torn between their links with Pakistan, a place they had never visited and the UK which is their home and what to do with the land (do you remember what they did do with it?).

This I thought was a good example to me of why the UK system does not work. Their parents had bought them up as Pakistani Muslims with Pakistani family morals (which are quite high I might add). They had no problem with being Muslim but they did have a problem with their identities, were they British or Pakistani Muslims? This was then followed by an interview with a professor from a leading university in Pakistan who said that in his opinion being bought up the way they were meant they were now neither one nor the other and that they would no longer fit in to Pakistani culture.

This is why I feel it wrong the way the UK system allows for people of diverse culture, it really does not do them any favours. My own daughter who is of mixed race attended evening classes to get an A level to enable her to progress her career decided to take sociology. The teacher picked her out of the class, being mixed race, and then went on to talk about the problems she has encountered, the racial bigotry she has experienced and how difficult her life must be with no equal opportunities.

Well she has been bought up like any other English child, nothing was ever mentioned to her about her ethnic origins, why should there be. In the end she stood up and pointed out why she was taking the A level and that she had just become a vice president of Leman Brothers (large merchant bank) in the UK and that she had never experienced any of the things he was talking about. The only discrimination she has experienced has been because she has been a woman and it has been the same as the other women she works with. She  was bought up like any normal English child and we are all very proud of her. So to me it proves that my theory about the UK system being wrong is correct. Ask her who she is and she will say British and if you cut her in half she will have Londoner running through her.

[le bouffon]

When we where in el cala(think it is spelt like that in english,first algerian port west of tunisia)we went in to a algerian museum dedicated to the franco/algerian war and the picture they displayed and the people in them ,well if the algerians did it to them no wonder they came to france,france and paris are as far removed as one could be.

[Renaud]

First thought –

When George W Bush said that the French have no word for ‘entrepreneur’ we all had a good laugh.

 

But although entrepreneur is a French word, he is right in that the concept of a person who starts a business, takes risks, if lucky grows the business, hires staff, expands, makes a profit, hires more people etc. has not been a French concept for years.

 

The result of the French labour laws that penalise an employer who has to lay-off staff is that those in work are properly protected however they provide such a disincentive to the creation of new enterprises that ‘entrepreneur’ is now a foreign concept. The proposals to loosen the labour laws are a step in a good direction but will hardly foster an enterprise economy.

 

What Chirac and the French fonctionaire establishment dislike is ‘Anglo-Saxon economics’ by this they mean economic systems in which entrepreneurs can start businesses and prosper. (Mind you Gordon Brown is not too keen on them either).

 

The rioters are described as unemployed. They have no stake society, as the TV news tells us. The medium to long-term solution is to change the economic system so that these youths can get jobs and thereby have a stake in society.

 

However I agree with Quillan that the English will never understand French culture and I am English.

 

Second thought –

The Americans are a nation of immigrants and have always had far better ways of integrating the newly arrived that either the British or the French. Their basic idea is that those gaining citizenship are Americans first and American Irish (or whatever) second. Children at school salute the flag and sing ‘God bless America’. OK they have had race riots from time to time but those rioters would have still thought of themselves as American.

 

This, I think, is the area where the British ‘multicultural’ model works less well and from what I have learned about the rioters the French model works less well too.

[Coco]

Going back to the tourism point.  We had an English couple who booked this coming weekend way back in July for the husband's 40th.  Today they sent an email cancelling it, without reason.  Although we're in the wilds of the Normandy countryside, perhaps they felt the same as Baz - special birthday, not worth the risk of spoiling it.  We also have an American family due to come across from their army base in Germany.  They phoned today to find out if it would be safe to come here and whether we were affected by the riots.  I assured them that Rennes (the closest so far) is more than 120km away and that even if there was rioting in our local town of Saint Lo (only 16km away) they'd never know about it, tucked away here!  So fortunately for me, they've decided that they're still coming.

I have also found that French guests we have had staying here have been extremely outspoken about racism and immigrants.  At least 75% of them have asked us if we left England because our government has such a free and easy policy of allowing immigrants in.  They have also complained about the amount of immigrants in France and when we have mentioned the fact that we are also immigrants to their country they always (and with no hesitation or embarrassment) tell me that we are fine because we are white.  I found it quite shocking the first time I heard it but c'est normale now!