Riots

[Teamedup]

Last night after listening to les infos about the riots I was feeling some surprise that the trouble was limited to Paris.

 

And now that I see that it has spread.....

 

Pasqua was always heavy handed about civil unrest and I suspect Sarko will be worse.

 

 

So many of the cite are no go areas as it is. There have been serious unaddressed problems in these places for years.

Will this heavy handed stance work, or will it drive people underground and into the arms of extremists. 

 

I really hope that the government will start using some good sense.

 

On the 1 o'clock BBC news they said that this year 28000 cars had been burnt out in the banilieu of Paris. That sounds a lot to me, is it? And wasn't it a sign of discontent in itself.

 

 

[SaligoBay]

28000 cars had been burnt out in the banilieu of Paris

Yes, it sounds like a lot to me!  But no doubt someone will tell us how many were burnt out in the UK in the same period, and not to be so negative about France....

Word on Rue Cynique today is that it's all a plot, and Sarkozy has put agents provocateurs out to cause it all, and put himself in a good light by "sorting" it all out.  Can't really see it myself.  I'm not a fan, but he's not stupid.  Or is he? 

[Tag]

I think it will eventually appear that many of the rioters are French born and bred, perhaps even of the second and third generation. The fact that they are Muslim has nothing to do with the riots. Racism, bad facilities, atrocious education, isolation and lack of opportunity have caused these people to be disaffected, so that they may be manipulated by extremist or criminal elements, or simply have reached the point where the ras le bol has boiled over.

To satisfy those who wish to send them home, these people may well be at home.

And for the true cynic, buy Renault shares as those burning cars have to be replaced.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]I think it will eventually appear that many of the rioters are French born and bred, perhaps even of the second and third generation. The fact that they are Muslim has nothing to do with the riots. Ra...[/quote]

Taq - very well said. Despite being described as "immigrant areas" in practically every story I've so far read, these suburbs are populated in the vast majority by FRENCH citizens. They may by of African or whatever extraction, but they were born here. The "send them back!" bigots make me spit.

The fact is that by dint of their names, skin colour and presumed religion their prospects for gaining a good education and decent employment, or even being able to walk around unmolested, are pretty poor. Funnily enough people tend to live down to the expectations that others have of them and BINGO! you've got riots.

I certainly don't excuse the wholesale destruction that is going on, but I can entirely understand the emotions behind it. Those with long memories may recall the riots in St Pauls in the early 1980s that led to a summer of copycat riots across the UK, occassioned by similar problems to those current today in many French suburbs. Those ultimatly led to some significant changes in the ways that these areas were both managed and policed. Coupled with a long run of economic properity in the UK, and despite the endemic racism that is still a characteristic of British society, the lid is now (generally) kept on. The French could learn a thing or two there.

[opas]

Jond , you are quite right when you say that the UK widespred riots of the 1980`s led to areas being policed differently.

I lived in one of those areas and it became a police `no go` area

Now someone will have to sit me down and explain to me step by step how rioting in ones own area and destroying the place you live in will give anyone a better way of life.

Mrs O

[Baz]

Nine days and rioting is out of hand, with last night Dijon, Rouen, Lille, Toulouse, Nice and Marseille  also affected. Arsonists destroyed 897 vehicles last night of which 656 were burnt in the area around Paris. Now some foreign governments, including the US are advising their citizens to steer clear of the Paris suburbs. It is becoming very apparent that even a high presence of the French CRS riot police cannot keep order so why have the Army not been bought in?

I  never feel  that the French Police show professional expertise in quelling unrest or riots. Maybe they might need  learn a thing or two from the UK Police who often under difficult circumstances seem to get on top of things in a very short time. Two deaths have already been allegedly attributed  to the riots, with two young males fleeing from the police and were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station in Clichy-sous-Bois, near Paris. I just hope that the French authorities get a grip on matters before anyone else dies.

Baz

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Taq - have sent you a PM.

[Patf]

To get back on topic - perhaps the riots are already being orchestrated by extremists and this is France's version of terrorist attacks? A more plausible conspiracy theory than the one mentioned earlier centred on Sarkozy. Pat.

[Dick Smith]

There was someone (didn't hear who he was) saying this on the BBC this evening. It's an interesting thought, especially as the rioting would normally have died down by now, and there seems to have been a concerted change of tactics. In terms of destabilising the nation, how many nights of rioting can a country stand? Before civil liberties are REALLY eroded.

[Sprogster]

According, to the French and international press one of the main origins of the current troubles stems from French policy in the sixties, seventies and eighties, to put their ex colonial African immigrants into poorly built isolated new towns, created just to house them. As a result these communities have become forgotten run down ghettos.

Whereas, in the UK by comparison immigrants were and still are disbursed across the country into existing towns and cities. Not perfect, but generally more successful in that you get Muslim, Hindu, West Indian and the original communities at least living in the same town.

Add one of the worst youth unemployment rates in Europe and some recent insensitive political decisions directed towards immigrant communities and you have the recipe for the current French riots.

Don't forget British people living in France are immigrants too! 

[Dick Smith]

Sprogster, I think that there is a great deal in what you say (except that immigrants were dispersed, not disbursed, which means paid, and if the clown had a better vocabulary she/he would pick up on that one for another tirade!).

However, I have noticed a very strong anti-'arab' strain of racism in France. We even had a French teaching TV series in which one of the characters called a young man who spilled her coffee 'Arabe' - and he clearly wasn't.

Another feature of the UK has been that many early immigrants from the West Indies bought and improved houses and so did the East African asians. They have much more of a 'stake' in society as a result. Has this happened at all in France?

[SaligoBay]

From MSN news tonight....

Le président français Jacques Chirac, dont le silence étonne certains députés de sa propre majorité, a reçu une offre d'"aide" de la part du dirigeant libyen Mouammar Kadhafi, selon l'agence officielle libyenne Jana.

Why is JC maintaining this strong, manly silence?  What kind of "help" has Gaddafi offered him?     Sensible answers only, please. 

[Miki]

".....Why is JC maintaining this strong, manly silence? What kind of "help" has Gaddafi offered him? Sensible answers only, please"

Gardening equipment, fair knowledge of wine, dodgy Titre de Séjours, fast track car immatriculations, hang on, that's in the other direction...............shot in the dark here then....oil ?

[Tag]

Presumably this would be pouring oil on troubled waters!

Perhaps Chirac is keeping quiet so that his two potential successors and opponents can slug it out whilst France burns, get their own fingers burned in the process with the public and leave him free to run again for a third term. A sort of electoral 'stay out of gaol card'. Or even just hoping that Sarky will de discredited, leaving the field free for De Villepin. (By the way does he remind anyone else of a rabbit?).

Hot weekend in Paris anyone?

[Russethouse]

Somebody asked what the rioters want ? Try and put yourself in their shoes, do you want your children and members of your community to have as good a chance as the next person of making a 'sucess' of their life ?

Do you want them judged on merit rather than the fact that they are English, blonde, dark, fat, thin, wear glasses, do not wear glasses etc, they live in a certain area or speak with a certain accent? I suspect the answer is yes.

Thats exactly what these people want, an equal chance. Having been frustrated in their attempts, having high unemployment and because of that poverty, they are an easy 'target' for those in society who want to cause trouble.

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Hello

 

Russsethouse said "Thats exactly what these people want, an equal chance. Having been frustrated in their attempts, having high unemployment and because of that poverty, they are an easy 'target' for those in society who want to cause trouble."

Why should these people expect society to lay employment or anything else in front of them? In the real world you have to go out and work at making personal wealth. It's hard and sometimes you get knocked down but surly that is all part of life's rich pattern. They seem to me to be pretty stupid they are destroying their own infrastructure. But I suppose this is what comes of too many years of socialism destroying the ability to stand on ones two feet and instilling the idea that "they" will cough up the readies, whatever happens.

  

[le bouffon]

At last someone is not only talking about france but talking sense,do not know if anyone tell say how many of the rioters need a job want a job or how many people in the french"sink" estates would want to go on to higher education,if one says they all should at what cost would that be to the french tax payer and who then would they work? for times that by every"sink" estate in every french city and then the none immigrants sink estates and total the bill but do not send it to me,where ever I maybe.

[Russethouse]

>>>Why should these people expect society to lay employment or anything else in front of them? <<<

Do they ? I think they want a level playing field, not to have less opportunity because they are prejudged.

>>>In the real world you have to go out and work at making personal wealth. It's hard and sometimes you get knocked down but surly that is all part of life's rich pattern.<<<

Yes, you have to make your own way, but if no one will give you a chance to work because of your skin colour, religion or the post code you live in, what then ?

>>>They seem to me to be pretty stupid they are destroying their own infrastructure. But I suppose this is what comes of too many years of socialism destroying the ability to stand on ones two feet and instilling the idea that "they" will cough up the readies, whatever happens.<<<

Where you have high unemployment, the consequential poverty and boredom it is easy for those in society who would cause trouble, to do so. I believe that is what is happening here.(or rather there as I am in the UK)

I am no great expert on racial discrimination or French politics but I think that if you keep in mind that on the whole people are fairly similar, they want the best for their families, they have hopes and dreams, sadness and joy, no matter what the colour of their skin or religion they practice. Also add to that that every nationality or religion has a cross section of people, industrious, lazy, good, bad etc.

Perhaps France is having another revolution ?

[Sprogster]

As a visitor to France and the UK, I get the impression that in the UK there is a strong establishment culture of political correctness towards minority groups. As a result there seems less racial tension, with recent UK inner city problems seemingly more gang,drugs or binge drinking related.

For example, recently several members of a far right racially intolerant political party in the UK got lengthy jail sentences for proposing controversial solutions to illegal immigration! I am not sure that would or could happen in France?

My earlier post reflected the "out of sight, out of mind" policy of French administrations in placing immigrant groups into purpose built new towns, that became ghettos. Whereas in the UK with immigrant groups settled into existing towns, the integration problems were far more "in your face" and therefore led to a greater political will to deal with them.

As a nation the Brits have a talent for running themselves down. However, by and large British people are far more tolerant to multi-racial groups, than many of their European neighbours.

[Hoddy]

"by and large British people are far more tolerant to multi-racial groups, than many of their European neighbours."

I don't know about other European neighbours, but in France I'm often stunned by the openly expressed racism against "les Arabes".

Hoddy

[Quillan]

MODERATORS HAT ON

I have done my best to delete any racist posts and comments from this thread. As a result of doing so I have also deleted some posts because they refer to posts that have been deleted.

Any further racist posts will be deleted.

Please remember that this thread is about riots in France so can we stay on topic wherever possible please.

This thread is now being monitored,

MODERATORS HAT OFF

 

[le bouffon]

So are you are living in france and then if so what does one do?carry on being "stunned"or try to impose british thinking any way one can,with the arrogance of thinking every thing british is right or does one do things the french way and do the when in rome thing,we are guests in france by choice no one is making anyone live here,if one feels strong enough about perceived anti-arab feeling do something about it and let all their french neighbour know about it,Life in france is great if you want to live in france,just do not think that british idea,s about whats right and wrong will translate once you get here,this france,france another country.

[SaligoBay]

For example, recently several members of a far right racially intolerant political party in the UK got lengthy jail sentences for proposing controversial solutions to illegal immigration! I am not sure that would or could happen in France?

LOL of course not!  They get to run for president here! 

[Hoddy]

No, Le Bouffon, I’m not living permanently in France, not do I wish to bludgeon anyone into my way of thinking. I do, however, feel perfectly at liberty to question anyone’s opinions.

In my opinion, racism is always wrong whatever the language or the culture. Some of my French acquaintances don’t agree - that is their right and it makes me rather sad and fearful of the future.

On the original subject of this thread, the present tactics for dealing with the riots seem not to be working.

Hoddy

[JJ]

As far as the riots are concerned I was a serving UK police officer in the 70's and 80's where we saw quite a lot of riots on the UK. Surprisingly a lot of the causes were the same as we see in France today, although our tactics were not so heavy handed the problems were not over in a few days.

Racism is alive and well in all societies, perhaps we should not forget Mr Le Pen a couple of years ago, where I live 92% of the vote was for his right wing party.