Riots

[Quillan]

The French do have things to learn from others as others do from the French, we should all learn together.

There is a problem with small business's in France and the fact that there are no incentives for people to start them up, as I read somewhere.

"The French want the economic miracle that England has but they are like women, they want the baby without the pain of the birth".

Perhaps they want it by caesarean?

 

[SaligoBay]

Yes I agree, the program you talked about I saw also. What was interesting was the Asian Muslim family who had been left some land in Pakistan I believe. They all spoke with an East London accents and were torn between their links with Pakistan, a place they had never visited and the UK which is their home and what to do with the land (do you remember what they did do with it?).

This I thought was a good example to me of why the UK system does not work.

Hmmmmm..... what makes you think the same problem doesn't happen in France?  People don't just become "French" as soon as they land on French soil.  They bring their memories and their traditions with them.  If they're Muslims they bring their children up in a way that is just soooooo.... NotFrench!   Imagine, no alcohol, no pork, pray 5 times a day, try to get to Mecca.... not traditionally French at all!  And they still speak Arabic, many of the children born here in France are bilingual.  They have families in Algeria and Morocco.  Like your Pakistani family, they're here, but not entirely.  If you see what I mean.

If you think the Muslims are so integrated and fully French, why are they not to be seen in high places, or political places? 

Both approaches sound lovely - multiculturalism and Frenchism - but they both end up in the same place.

[Motorhead]

The difference between Britain and France is that France is one nation and Britain is not. If one can be English/Scots/Welsh British then one can also be Pakistani or Carribean British.

Another difference is the British enterprise culture. Nobody would give decent jobs to non white immigrants in Britain either but then they were able to make their own work. 

[Dick Smith]

I was discussing this today with a class of about the same age - ethnically and religiously mixed. Their opinion was that it was purely an angry reaction to racism (over years) by people who didn't have any other way to make their views felt. They said that it would be unlikely to happen in England (or at least in London) as our society is not racist "not in any serious way".

I must say I was surprised by their perception and positive views of race relations in the UK.

In the same discussion I asked the Muslim kids what their view of the 'Christmas Lights' fuss was, and they literally fell about laughing...

[le bouffon]

Would this be french kids???Dicky go to a northern english(and only because I have been to northern france a few times through work and only spoke to a few folk) mill town and ask the kids when they come out of the pubs on a friday night the same questions,the same kids will have no idea what your elite charges are on about,there are to busy making it in the real world.Not sure if you think the french riots are based on racism,but there are more people who live where the riots are happening against whats going on as reported on french tv today,you and your ilk have lost the plot,you are being left behind,it is the criminal youth that are to blame and a trial of strength between the gangs and the police to who runs the estates.

  Christmas tree lights have very very little to do with the riots in france, although with your out of day logic is fading away I could see in may have some relevance on a UK forum.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I'm thinking on my feet here (not literally, obviously - I'm sitting down to type), so please excuse poor use of language.

When we first moved to this village, we made a decision that has affected our lives here more profoundly than we could have imagined at the time. We placed our eldest daughter (then aged 3) into the école privée. We did this at the time because, upon inspection, it appeared to be the better of the two schools on offer.

It took us a little over a year to realise the extent to which doing this had detemined our social circle and the way in which we are perceived in the community.

To be clear for those that might be unfamiliar with the system, the école privées are affiliated with the Catholic church (at least in rural France - in cities there are schools affiliated with Judaism, etc as well). In areas, such as ours, where the church still holds a great deal of sway, placing one's child in an école privée is seen pretty much as a political statement: centre right politically, small c conservative, family orientated, mistrusful of government. (SEEN AS, mark you, not necessarily being so.) All this harks back to 1789.

This village is politely divided. With a couple of exceptions, our entire social circle is based around parents of pupils or ex-pupils of the school. In itself perhaps not a surprise as we all have links through our children. Where it gets more insidious is that the out-of-school and non-school activities are split along the same lines. For example, no-one, (and I mean no-one) from "our" group have anything to do with the July 14th celebrations. We feel obliged to sneak the girls out to another village so they can watch the fireworks. We got very funny looks the one year we turned up the village - not hostile, just baffled. The mayor, who belongs firmly in the "them" camp by dint of having been an école publique headteacher at some point, makes a point of failing to appear at the kermese of the école privée, but turns up at the other one.

However, there are some events (regarded as rather more important by everyone) that bridge the gap - the November 11th memorial service and the Telethon. Then everyone gets on like a house on fire (hmm...poor choice of words, perhaps, given the current penchant for that kind of activity). Increasingly we are defined by where our children go to school, with our English origins becoming quite secondary.

Where I am getting to is this: no-one in this village is expecting the two "camps" to integrate with one another. People get on fine, maybe (rarely) engage in mixed marriages, occasionally socialise, but the twain shall never truly meet. Now, with a handful of exceptions, everyone in this village would be described on a census form as white european and everyone, if pushed, would probably describe themselves as christian. Despite this, despite very slight cultural differences, we still manage to maitain two, mutually exclusive, social groups.

Expecting people with cutural origins very different to "the French" to integrate seamlessly into French mainstream culture is both unrealistic and unreasonable. If France (or the UK, or any other European country) is to build a functioning multicultural society (I think such a thing is highly desirable myself) then it has to be on the basis that communities can co-exist without any expectation that they will eventually form a homogenous whole. This presumes respect, equality of opportunity and equal treatment under the law, all things sadly lacking at the moment, and, I think, very clearly the origin of these riots.

I have no idea how the French government is going to extract itself from this mess. The idea that some have mooted that this violence is somehow orchestrated by "extremists" is risable, though I suppose that it would be convenient to find a scapegoat. Right now I think the only sensible thing to do is to pray for some seriously cruddy weather to get people off the streets.

Racism is one of the few things that really makes makes me angry. It is, as far as I am concerned, the hallmark of true ignorance.

[Russethouse]

>>>The idea that some have mooted that this violence is somehow orchestrated by "extremists" is risable, though I suppose that it would be convenient to find a scapegoat. Right now I think the only sensible thing to do is to pray for some seriously cruddy weather to get people off the streets.<<<

The trouble is that where people are bored and frustrated, especially if they are teenage males (sexist now too )then it is very easy for people who want to cause trouble to do so.

Surely this rioting in different towns is not coincidence ?

>>>Racism is one of the few things that really makes makes me angry. It is, as far as I am concerned, the hallmark of true ignorance.<<<

Me too, when I was 14 at school we had to chose a topic to do a project on, my choice was racial discrimination, (I suspect it was just after the 'I have a dream' speech by Martin Luther King)since then situations have changed, the world has moved on but the basic principals are still the same.

[Russethouse]

Mod Hat On

I have just deleted some posts which contained personal insulting comments, and those related to them.

If this continues the normal warnings will be issued and the thread could be pulled which I think would be a great shame as it is pertinent to current events.

Please keep to the topic without being racist,insulting or derogatory to other forum members.

Mod hat off

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]>>>The idea that some have mooted that this violence is somehow orchestrated by "extremists" is risable, though I suppose that it would be convenient to find a scapegoat. Right now I think the only se...[/quote]

"Surely this rioting in different towns is not coincidence ?"

No, Gay, I would agree with you - it is not a coincidence. But, frankly, I think that what happened is that a few residents of marginalised estates in other towns caught sight of the TV news and just figured, what the hell, let's have a bash. Marvellous medium for spreading sedition (and advertising) is the old crystal bucket!

Just hoping it all ends before someone does something REALLY stupid.

[Quillan]

[quote]Yes I agree, the program you talked about I saw also. What was interesting was the Asian Muslim family who had been left some land in Pakistan I believe. They all[/quote]

Sorry I am not quite there yet with this. What does being Muslim have to do with nationality? The last person to make that link was Hitler with the jews. A persons religion is their thing, there are many English people who have taken the Muslim religion, probably the more famous of them is Cat Stevens.

I think you will find that the imigrants from the ex French dependancies speak fluent French (as well as thier native language although to many French is their first language), better than many, and I include myself, than many on this forum. France is a none religious state, Boney stopped all that, so therefor following the logic of your statement anybody practicing a religion in France is none French. Now both you and I know thats a stupid comment.

Part of the French consitution does say that all men (and women) are equal but the French government seem to think that some are more equal than others and obviously there are a lot of French people out there that sadly feel the same.

I can't find much on what was said tonight although the main news sites say that mayors have been given powers to use curfews, I personally can't see that this will fix any problems. There is some stuff on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/france.riots/index.html) I liked the bit about training 14 year olds that have dropped out of schools to find jobs. If adults and skilled people can't find jobs how is this going to help? Perhaps they need to stop them from leaving school at 14 is more to the point, how I don't know but there must be a way. I saw no concreate information about what they intend to do with the inner cities.

[Patf]

Jond - you say that your village is "politely divided" on the subject of which type of school your children attend . Then you say you hate racism as it's the hallmark of true ignorance. I think that the division in your village over type of school has the same origins as hatred of race/religion except that it's more restrained. I believe that most people have the potential for a fear of something that's different and strange which can lead to an aggressive reaction. The sooner that we recognise this the sooner we might reach a situation of living with it. All this denial and political correctness just sweeps it under the carpet. Having said that I reveal my racist views by saying that there's no excuse for the wanton destruction that is going on at the moment whether these young people feel that they are french or not and the french law and order forces should be more proactive. Pat.

[WJT]

Just saw a news report stating that the riots are being coordinated and have been planned since last January. It is being called the Ramadan offensive, they are stating that it is taking place in France, Germany and Belgium and a major terrorist attack was just foiled in Australia. Just hope this information is wrong.

[Russethouse]

I thought Ramadan had finished - wrong gain

One point made to me today was that many of the people citing unemployment and lack of opportunity as the problem seem to think that their part of society is the only one suffering from it, where as in fact it is a major prombem for much of France.

[Sprogster]

According to the Beeb news one of the reasons the racial situation is worse in France, is that the ethnic communities there are much more isolated,with no direct lines of communication to the establishment.

Whereas in the UK the ethnic communities have apparently developed far better established lines of communication, effective lobbying groups and more political representation at a local level.

I imagine this was in part as a result of riots in the UK during the seventies and eighties.

 

[Teamedup]

Part of the French consitution does say that all men (and women) are equal

 

My jaw dropped when I read that Quillan. I would really rather not hear about the french constitution and liberte, egalite et fraternite which I have always found rather en manque in general in french society.Is this the time to bring up such idealism when they are talking of bringing the army in and curfews?

[Quillan]

[quote]Part of the French consitution does say that all men (and women) are equal My jaw dropped when I read that Quillan. I would really rather not hear about the french constitution and liberte, ega...[/quote]

Thats a bit unfair Teamedup you didn't quote exactly what I said, you could make a good politician

Part of the French constitution does say that all men (and women) are equal but the French government seem to think that some are more equal than others and obviously there are a lot of French people out there that sadly feel the same.

Your point is exactly the same as mine. What I am saying is that whilst the idea of those that come from ex dependencies are French then they are entitled by French law to be treated as equals but when even the state ignore this then no example is set for ordinary people. If it's OK for the government then it's OK for me sort of thing. Thats why it is imperative for the government to sort this out and to lead it's people by example. Sadly instituting a curfew and calling them scum and announcing they are going to lock every one of them up is not the way to go. The government needs to start dialog with these people as quickly as possible.

I was somewhat amused to see (through the links on the BBC site) what the US thinks. They are saying, or rather their news is saying, that if France had the same equal opportunities as blacks did in America then like America there would be no issue with race or colour. The immediate picture that runs through my mind is street gangs and police beating nine pounds worth out of a black man who did nothing wrong and were caught on video. Not to mention how they have been treating prisoners in Iraq so I don't consider them a good yard stick with which to measure race relations and equality by especially as part of their constitution in the same as France "All men are created equal".

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]Jond - you say that your village is "politely divided" on the subject of which type of school your children attend . Then you say you hate racism as it's the hallmark of true ignorance. I think that t...[/quote]

"Jond - you say that your village is "politely divided" on the subject of which type of school your children attend . Then you say you hate racism as it's the hallmark of true ignorance. I think that the division in your village over type of school has the same origins as hatred of race/religion except that it's more restrained."

That's rather the point that I am making. I don't believe that ALL distinction can, or should, be eliminated, no matter how much different groups may share a common philosophy. Co-existence and tollerence (within a framework of the law and of equlity of opportunity) are the name of the game - trying to force integration just drives in wedges. A distaste of racism is not the same as disavowing diversity, even at the most superficial level.

[Viv]

"Sorry I am not quite there yet with this. What does being Muslim have to do with nationality? The last person to make that link was Hitler with the jews. A persons religion is their thing, there are many English people who have taken the Muslim religion, probably the more famous of them is Cat Stevens."

But it's clear that some sections of society choose to define themselves through their religion rather than nationality. In doing so, they have more affinity to those in other countries of their religion than they do to their own countrymen.

This surely causes divisions?

 

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Hello

After much thought I think I have the solution. Sack Sarko and replace him with Cuddly bear and Naughty Policeman. All the "scum" go to Cuddly Bear who gives them a new playstation, a scooter, and a bucket full of dosh then they go to Naughty Policeman who lets them punch him in the face. This will stop all the rioting and they will all live happily ever after. The money will be raised by applying a special tax on pc British immigrants who will then walk tall knowing that they have done their bit towards religious and racial harmony.

[Quillan]

You know I just new it was going to be the fault of the English. I have just as a stupid idea, why not charge a 99% tax on the extra money the French are charging the English to buy their houses. You know spread the money around a bit. Your comment was quite funny until you spoilt it by adding a childish postscript.

[WJT]

[quote]I thought Ramadan had finished - wrong gain One point made to me today was that many of the people citing unemployment and lack of opportunity as the problem seem to think that their part of society ...[/quote]

Yes, I think it has just finished. I don't think historically there have been many major terrorists attacks that have taken place during Ramadan from what I understand they have generally been planned to take place just after.

I have seen nothing else about this with the exception of 17 being arrested with the foiled terrorist attack in Australia of which could have been planned since last January to take place just after Ramadan. So it does appear that there has been no connection with the riots.

[Teamedup]

Quillan your comment said (and women) and that is a red rag to this bull.

I have nudged and cajoled female french friends into an independant stance on many issues.

 

 

Re the villages. Well Jond what an excellant post about village life. Absolutely excellant. Ours is just the same. I breached the divide with my son's sport as the club was run by mamans from the ecole prive and I started to help out. Anyway I am the eccentric anglaise and they probably think I wouldn't know better anyway.

 

They have said that there will be curfews now, will these work, will they stop it. And will there be shoot to kill, teargas, rubber bullets? Could curfews make the situation worse?

 

[Alcazar]

I have to admit to being amazed at the US news' stance, that there are no problems in America

In my lifetime of only 50 some years, I've watched the Americans interfere in no end of other countries, always holding up themselves as some sort of super "land of the free, no problems, everyone equal" type state.

The reality.....riots, gangs controlling large areas, racism, poverty, very heavily controlled immigration, and the millions too poor to even get health care, are always carefully hidden and denied.

I think we need to treat any US comments with a LARGE pinch of salt

Alcazar

[Russethouse]

Val, I hear a school has been burnt out in Brest, have you heard anything ?

[Viv]

I've just found out that the centre in Brest where I and other immigrants go to learn French has been completely destroyed.

This course was run by French volunteers to help immigrants learn the language and get a job.

In my class (I was the only Brit), each of the following nationalities were represented, Ukraine, Algeria, China, Japan, Bangladesh,Portugal and some others I can't recall - all with a common aim.

This centre did not just hold language classes but it was creche, advice centre and much more - all geared up to help those who needed it much more than me and now its gone. It's gutted and so am I. Words to describe the perpetrators? None that I can put here.