Nationality

[hastobe]

Local residents in the Cobridge area of Stoke-on-Trent were banned from flying the Union Jack in a public place a couple of years ago (decision of the Stoke-on-Trent City Council as a I recall) - because the local muslim residents found it offensive.  I searched for the local newspaper reports (there was a lot of publicity at the time) - but unfortunately the local online newspaper archives only go back six months - though if you google it you will find a number of referenecs to the incident.  Similarly, local school children were told not to wear England shirts / carry England flags during the world cup in case it caused offence to people of other nationalities.  So I have no doubt Georgina's comments are well founded.

Kathie

[Georgina]

Thanks for the comments above, I am afraid I do not wish to divulge really specific information about my personal background for obvious reasons suffice to say that I do not have a Union Jack in my garden.[:)]

Georgina

[Chief]

[quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Chief"][quote user="Georgina"][quote user="Cat"]

I never felt like an outsider in England.  If the English living in England are the outsiders, who are the insiders, have I misunderstood?  Has waving or hanging the cross of St George been banned in England then, or were you talking about a different flag? 

 

[/quote]

Thanks Cat. 

Well it's not just my opinion but those of my friends  with whom I am still in contact, so maybe Iceni has been here longer or lived in a small village.  I don't know.  I come from a big city where the hanging of St George had been banned there and in several other places where I have lived. Indeed the celebration of Christmas a tradition of our Christian country (although I appreciate not everyone is religious but still enjoyed such celebrations) has been played down, including not allowing children to play the nativity scene at our childrens' school!

 (where have you been Iceni)?

 

 Georgina

[/quote]

Well, i support your right to fly the flag, but i also support the right of others to be offended by it.  And therin lies the problem.  The so-called advocates of freedom and democracy seem to flinch when conflict results from their rights. If an act is likely to incite a negative reaction in someone, that is not a reason to ban it, but neither should we expect the offended parties to remain quiet just because we have chosen to exercise our rights.  To me its all part and parcel of the action/reaction cycle.  And when the reaction goes too far, we hopefully have saleint laws to deal with it.

[/quote]


Chief,

As I understand it, Georgina was referring to the flying of the flag of St George in England. This is the English national flag. You say that you effectively support the rights of those who object to the English flag making their objections known. Personally, I find this hard to accept, object by all means - privately, but to openly, ie publicly, object to the English flag being flown in England is, quite frankly, insulting to the English people.

[/quote]

Bear in mind that until recently the flag of St George was firmly established as the flag of the British National Party (albeit hijacked by them) and that the offence comes from that association. In recent years it has been associated with the national football squad and other high profile patriotic events. Good well intentioned people are rightly wanting to use the flag in the latter sense of national pride, however, people perhaps need to understand that the latter sense of use is perhaps not as firmly established in the psyche as the former.  That will take time to address.

And as a point of clarification. I am not condoning or otherwise objections, bans or whatever. I am however making the point that these types of protest are part and parcel of the freedoms and democracies we enjoy.  I am black, but i would never support any measure that banned parties such as the BNP (french bank jokes on a postcard and sent to chirac please) from their right to express their feelings and ideologies.  It is part and parcel of the society we live....and have to live with.  freedom and rights come with a price. You don't have to like it, but you do have to live with it.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

<pendantic mode> I'd like to see how the Union Jack could be flown inside England, because it's only called that when it's on a ship ;) It's called the Union Flag when flown on land. <ends pedantic mode>

I prefer the French stand on whether or not the national flag being flown in its nation is offensive or not. From what I understand it's tough luck. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

I'm not a nationalist, but those attitudes in England are completely crazy! What do these people expect? They're happy enough to take everything else England offers and to get offended by a flag is nothing short of selfish and ridiculous. I wonder how much money in benefits these people receive....

[Chief]

[quote user="hastobe"]Local residents in the Cobridge area of Stoke-on-Trent were banned from flying the Union Jack in a public place a couple of years ago (decision of the Stoke-on-Trent City Council as a I recall) - because the local muslim residents found it offensive.  I searched for the local newspaper reports (there was a lot of publicity at the time) - but unfortunately the local online newspaper archives only go back six months - though if you google it you will find a number of referenecs to the incident.  Similarly, local school children were told not to wear England shirts / carry England flags during the world cup in case it caused offence to people of other nationalities.  So I have no doubt Georgina's comments are well founded.

Kathie
[/quote]

Does the article quote muslims who found it offensive, or english people assuming muslims would find it offensive and passing dictate to that effect.  There are so many of these stories and i have yet to come across one where a member of the so-called 'offended community' has actually complained.  They seem to be pre-emptive strikes by well-intentioned but perhaps misguided officials.  Had a similar thing at my sons school, and it turned out to be exactly as i described above. An over-zealous official assuming.

[Chief]

[quote user="LyndaandRichard"]<pendantic mode> ........ I wonder how much money in benefits these people receive....
[/quote]

Because immigrants don't work of course.  Ooops, but are they not taking all our jobs, selling all their drugs and raping all our women!! [:D]

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="Chief"]

[quote user="LyndaandRichard"]<pendantic mode> ........ I wonder how much money in benefits these people receive....

[/quote]

Because immigrants don't work of course.  Ooops, but are they not taking all our jobs, selling all their drugs and raping all our women!! [:D]

[/quote]

Sorry, bit of a generalisation there, but I tried to use it to emphasise a point ie, obtaining the pluses that the country has to offer them while at the same time being offended by a piece of cloth that represents the country they are benefiting from.

Hope you get what I mean.

My attitude is if you move to a country you should abide by its laws, it's customs and so forth, after all it's your choice to go there in the first place. And I hope I achieve that now I am in France.

[hastobe]

[quote user="Chief"]

[quote user="hastobe"]Local residents in the Cobridge area of Stoke-on-Trent were banned from flying the Union Jack in a public place a couple of years ago (decision of the Stoke-on-Trent City Council as a I recall) - because the local muslim residents found it offensive.  I searched for the local newspaper reports (there was a lot of publicity at the time) - but unfortunately the local online newspaper archives only go back six months - though if you google it you will find a number of referenecs to the incident.  Similarly, local school children were told not to wear England shirts / carry England flags during the world cup in case it caused offence to people of other nationalities.  So I have no doubt Georgina's comments are well founded.

Kathie

[/quote]

Does the article quote muslims who found it offensive, or english people assuming muslims would find it offensive and passing dictate to that effect.  There are so many of these stories and i have yet to come across one where a member of the so-called 'offended community' has actually complained.  They seem to be pre-emptive strikes by well-intentioned but perhaps misguided officials.  Had a similar thing at my sons school, and it turned out to be exactly as i described above. An over-zealous official assuming.

[/quote]

Yes there were protests from the muslim community - the flag was burned down three times before the council edict to ban the flying of the Union Jack / Flag in public places.  We also had 'You might have your flag but we've got your country' painted in spray paint across one of the major bridges in the locality. 

Given that, I agree that often these events are misreported and are actually the result of overzealous officials and PC taken to extremes - but in this case the banning of the flag was as a direct result of serious protests by the local muslim community.  As an aside Cobridge was the area of the 2001 race riots where the police were petrol bombed by local youths.

Kathie

[Iceni]

It says a great deal about the British NP that it would choose the English flag as an emblem - no doubt that party is populated by the same moronic football supporters that insist on waving the Union flag at England matches.

Georgina - what did you mean about where had I been ? Was this a reference to my WASP or WASC comments ? Or not feeling an outsider either on the insignificant liitle island in the N Sea or here in the big bit of Yoorp ?

As regards flying a Union Jack in England I'm sure that the formerly many, now few naval buildings designated HMS Towerblock etc would insist that they are flying one.

LyndaandRichard - I like the Freudian slip - "pendantic mode" - 10/10.

John

not

[oglefakes]

I must admit that I have only ever seen the St. George, at someones home, hanging (usually from from a window) about 5 or 6 times ever, and I thought it was amusing that on each and every occasion, there were discarded whitegoods on the 'lawn' [:D]

IMHO this is more than coincidence [:P]

[oglefakes]

[quote user="beryl"]

A quick google found this

http://www.salfordadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/213/213709_by_george_how_very_unpatriotic.html

For health and safety reasons was the official line...but there is some mention of being sensitive to how "residents of other nationalities would react to England flags being displayed." 

It is that sort of over zealous 'sensitivity' that I suspect creates problems where none would be.

[/quote]

I think they are concerned about the old "the biggest defenders of a cause, are usually the worst examples of it"  or whatever it was. 

As Billy Bragg says "Your Engerlund isn't my England"

[Teamedup]

A french friend of mine has had a mediallion for Jeanne d' Arc for years and wears it sometimes. The FN hijacked La Pucelle a long time ago and it upsets my friend that people assume that she is making a political statement.

Re flag burning, I would deport any foreigner doing that in the UK to any of the flags of the UK. If they don't want to be there, well get rid. A little respect for one's adoptive country, whether it be me in France or foreigners in the UK would not come in a miss, no one is forced to be anywhere these days in europe.

[Russethouse]

I have posted this before :http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,,1235270,00.html 

 

[Tresco]

Gay, the link is brokie.

I don't care if someone burns a flag of any description, unless they hurt someone while they do it.

It's just a protest, and it's only recently people have got het up about it in the west.

[Russethouse]

I think its fxed now - too many https...........you may have read it before Tresco [;-)]

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Gay, the link is brokie.

I don't care if someone burns a flag of any description, unless they hurt someone while they do it.

It's just a protest, and it's only recently people have got het up about it in the west.

[/quote]

THis is a big issue in the U.S., with some (mostly right wing) people wanting to have a constitutional amendment to ban it. The U.S. Supreme Court has, in the past, upheld the right to burn it as a free speech issue.  Although there are lots of weird laws governing use and disposal of the U.S. flag.

I don't think we should venerate a piece of cloth over the rights of individuals to speak out and protest, even if we don't like what they're saying.

PG

[Just Katie]

[quote user="oglefakes"]I must admit that I have only ever seen the St. George, at someones home, hanging (usually from from a window) about 5 or 6 times ever, and I thought it was amusing that on each and every occasion, there were discarded whitegoods on the 'lawn' [:D]

IMHO this is more than coincidence [:P]





[/quote]

And draping from hotel balconies on the Costas.

[Will]

I know of people in Brittany who fly the Welsh flag (not only during Rugby tournaments) at their houses. I wonder if forum members find that any more acceptable than flying the English flag?

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Just Katie "]

[quote user="oglefakes"]I must admit that I have only ever seen the St. George, at someones home, hanging (usually from from a window) about 5 or 6 times ever, and I thought it was amusing that on each and every occasion, there were discarded whitegoods on the 'lawn' [:D]

IMHO this is more than coincidence [:P]





[/quote]

And draping from hotel balconies on the Costas.

[/quote]

Maybe because these people don't give tuppence for political correctness - or do you think Mr Griffin has got to them ?

I might put a flag out in self defence - I have Irish one side, Welsh the other and Scots opposite [:)]

[Just Katie]

Will,

The fact that the Welsh flag is being flown in Brittany, may be perceived as a little on the arrogant side by some.  It could be seen as a claim on the land.  However, I am not offended by this in my own country.  We see student blocks with flags from almost every nation in their windows.  Also, the same applies in the homes of immigrant workers recently descended upon my town.  To be honest, I dont see the point of it and would even go as far as saying it is a bit daft.

Gay,

Why should it be politically incorrect to fly the English flag in England?  As I have said, personally, I do not see the point but if somebody choses to fly their flag in their country what is the problem?

[Patf]

I think there's some kind of affinity between the welsh and the people of Brittany. Something in the history and the language. They call themselves Gaulois (?) Come and put me right, Katie, Dave and Olive,  Twinkle etc. Pat. (post crossed with Katie's.)

[Just Katie]

Yes Pat, they are fellow Celts and, I think that Wills Welsh, Flag Waving Friends are waving their flag to be more accepted as part of the Breton community as fellow Celts. 

As a hybrid Welsh person with an equal love of England, I do find that attitudes change when you say you are Welsh and not English.  Not only have I found this in Brittany but in most places throughout the world.  As I said earlier, I think the poor English today are still carrying the cross from the Empire.

Incidentally, with the risk of upsetting Pads and Pip, the most Anti-English "Let us Celts clan together" sentiment I have ever witnessed was in Cornwall.

[Clarkkent]

Of course, the Celts are not Celts. The modern affectation of people from the fringes of the British Isles calling themselves "Celt" dates from 1792 and was a piece of romantic froth.

The Celts were a people living in the Danube valley who never came anywhere near Western Europe.

I am busy looking for my protective clothing ...

[Just Katie]

I would love to have evidence of this so I can cause a rumpus up the rugby club.

Forget the protective clothing.  Only I will need that[:D]

[Cat]

Erm, I'd start donning that protective clothing then CK, as the archaeologists working along the route of the new TGV line must be misinformed [Www]   And the program that I watched on Arte on Saturday night, Sur la Trace des Celtes, must have been thinking about some other tribe that dominated early Europe. http://www.arte.tv/fr/recherche/1485424.html