Nationality

[Clarkkent]

This is taken from the Wikipedia entry on "Celt"

The use of the word "Celtic" as an umbrella term for the pre-Roman peoples of Britain gained considerable popularity in the nineteenth century, and remains in common usage. However its historical basis is now seen as dubious by many historians and archaeologists, and the utility of this usage has been questioned.

Simon James, formerly of the British Museum, in his book The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention? makes the point that the Romans never used the term "Celtic" (or, rather, a cognate in Latin) in reference to the peoples of Britain and Ireland, and points out that the modern term "Celt" was coined as a useful umbrella term in the early 18th century to distinguish the non-English inhabitants of the archipelago when England united with Scotland in 1707 to create the Kingdom of Great Britain and the later union of Great Britain and Ireland as the United Kingdom in 1800. Nationalists in Scotland, Ireland and Wales looked for a way to differentiate themselves from England and assert their right to independence. James then argues that, despite the obvious linguistic connections, archaeology does not suggest a united Celtic culture and that the term is misleading, no more (or less) meaningful than "Western".

[Teamedup]

That is one of the most boring books I have tried to read in the recent past, The Atlantic Celts.

The latest I have heard is that british people are linked to the basques, this research done via dna things.

 

[Just Katie]

There is currently a programme running on UK television testing DNA for a persons origins.  Knowing my luck I would be something boring.........like British.

[oglefakes]

[quote user="Just Katie "]

There is currently a programme running on UK television testing DNA for a persons origins. 

[/quote]

It was actually part of David Blunkett's "let's identify everyone" program in order to have something to put on our pending ID cards [:D]

[Georgina]

[quote user="Just Katie "]

[quote user="oglefakes"]I must admit that I have only ever seen the St. George, at someones home, hanging (usually from from a window) about 5 or 6 times ever, and I thought it was amusing that on each and every occasion, there were discarded whitegoods on the 'lawn' [:D]

IMHO this is more than coincidence [:P]





[/quote]

And draping from hotel balconies on the Costas.

[/quote]

Exactly my point about being English, either you MUST be in the BNP or you must be a scroate to fly the flag. Or you must be arrogant.  Not that you are actually English and proud to be English.

By the way, just for clarification,  I have never had the inclination to fly a flag.... hence my point I don't really care.  But hanging a flag in another country and/or objecting to that country's flag, well that is arrogant.  Could you imagine how we would cringe if at some British enclave in France, they objected to the French flag being paraded in their community.  Come on, we just would not do it.  We are and always will be a guest in THIS country too. And in being so, must respect their values and traditions and not expect them to take on ours. And it should be the same in England.

 

Georgina

 

[oglefakes]

[quote user="Georgina"][quote user="Just Katie "]

[quote user="oglefakes"]I must admit that I have only ever seen the St. George, at someones home, hanging (usually from from a window) about 5 or 6 times ever, and I thought it was amusing that on each and every occasion, there were discarded whitegoods on the 'lawn' [:D]

IMHO this is more than coincidence [:P]

[/quote]

And draping from hotel balconies on the Costas.

[/quote]

Exactly my point about being English, either you MUST be in the BNP or you must be a scroate. Or you must be arrogant.  Not that you are actually English and proud to be English.

By the way, just for clarification,  I have never had the inclination to fly a flag.... hence my point I don't really care.  But hanging a flag in another country and/or objecting to that country's flag, well that is arrogant.  Could you imagine how we would cringe if at some British enclave in France, they objected to the French flag being paraded in their community.  Come on, we just would not do it.  We are and always will be a guest in THIS country too. And in being so, must respect their values and traditions and not expect them to take on ours. And it should be the same in England.

 

Georgina

 

[/quote]

Georgina, I hear what you say and agree to a point. Keep in mind that each culture has their own slant on what is 'normal' and acceptable for patriotism. I.E. there arer vastly different views between say, your average American school kid who sings the anthem every morning and Winston Churchill, who appears to have had distain for it. [:D]

The average Frencj person isn't looking at the Welsh, English, Union flags (or for that matter, a Moroccan one) flying in their country from a (reserved with regards to flag waving) British point of view, but a French one.

[hastobe]

[quote user="oglefakes"]

The average Frencj person isn't looking at the Welsh, English, Union flags (or for that matter, a Moroccan one) flying in their country from a (reserved with regards to flag waving) British point of view, but a French one.

[/quote]

Not sure what you are saying ogleflakes - that the average Frenchman would be happy if the British residents of Eymet publically burned the French flag and demanded that the flying of same be prohibited?

Kathie

[Tony F Dordogne]

And as far as I know, the burning of or showing disrespect to the American flag is a criminal offence in the USA.

We have two flags here that we might want to have outside our home at some stage, the French and the drapeau de Languedoc, the lovely red background with the Languedocian cross.  Can't think whay we would ever want to fly the English flag, never did it in England - and have no idea why we would want to fly the two that we have now, just seems the right thing to do here, especially as the French flag represents the Republic, not a monarchy.  It's a bit like singing the national anthem to me - the words and sentiments of the British national anthem to me are just nausiating and are nothing to do with the people or the country, just one person and the religious beliefs underlying the Crown.,

Whilst the French national anthem is a bit bombastic, at least it's for the people - though of course it was written by a royalist for the royalist cause which is a bit bizarre.

And I did my bit for Queen and Country - though like many other people in a similar position it was just a job, not for some high faluting reason of devotion to the Queen.

 

 

[Valleyboy]

At least we Welsh (whether or not we are Celtic) have a superb and moving national anthem!!

[Tresco]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

And as far as I know, the burning of or showing disrespect to the American flag is a criminal offence in the USA.[/quote]

Unless I'm so out of touch I missed them altering the Constitution, I don't think it is...help, Lori, or PG.[;-)]

[Tony F Dordogne]

Don't think it's the Constitution, it was a Federal Act I seem to recall, probably a great piece of legislation like the Patriot Act.

[Tresco]

Tony, they would have had to change the 1st Amendment. That's part of the Constitution, isn't it???

Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't surpise me if they had done it, it'd just reinforce the suspicion I have that I'm losing touch with certain significant things.[:$]

[LanguedocGal]

I’m going to be unusually controversial now (totally unlike me, of course). 

Re perception of the Cross of St George within the UK. 

 I think that English people who do not understand why so many find the English flag offensive are being extremely insensitive or deliberately obtuse.  Like it or not, it’s a flag that has been tainted with the image of hate and right-wing politics over decades. How many of these same people see the Swastika/Svastika and think of a beautiful and positive ancient symbol dating back thousands of years? In my early teens, I remember almost passing out when I say the original image of the Svastika on an Indian woman’s sari in London. My Jewish English teacher explained the origins to us.

Another point is that, whether people like it or not, the evils of the British Empire are on the whole attributed to the ‘’English’’ within the Union. So, if an ethnic group (in this case English) are perceived by many as having generally b uggered up a good chunk of the world over a few centuries, its flag is hardly going to be well-loved. 

I hear voices crying out – but what about the Union Jack?!  Well, this is where image and perception are important. The Union Jack has been made ''relatively'' sexy over recent decades by the fashion industry in the West.  Buy a Reebok or Lonsdale trainers for your child and there will be a UJ.  Who is offended by UJ Boxer shorts, tee-shirts etc etc?. When I lived in Paris in my younger years, I distinctly remember a few French friends with posters of the Union Jack on their walls as a trendy decorative item.

Perhaps what the Englishers need to do is to employ a mega brilliant advertising agency to render the flag of St.George sexy and unthreatening so that its perceived links to hooligans/racism/imperialism can be dispelled.

It can be done – the UJ is an excellent example.  Also, It’s not uncommon to see people with tee-shirts and jackets emblazoned with CCCP. The wearers are not promoting Soviet imperialism but it’s another symbol that has been rendered unthreatening and trendy. So, there is hope for the English flag for those who are bothered.

On a personal level, I think that ALL  flags can be worn/flown with pride, c rapped on (preferably) or burnt  (waste of matches) –  I don't give much of a toss.

 

[Teamedup]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Tony, they would have had to change the 1st Amendment. That's part of the Constitution, isn't it???

Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't surpise me if they had done it, it'd just reinforce the suspicion I have that I'm losing touch with certain significant things.[:$]

[/quote]

 

Isn't google wonderful, I googled ' burping of the american flag' and got some strange results.  So I tried 'burning of the american flag' and found that there was something called the Flag Protection Act in the US from the late 1980's.

[Will]

But surely the Union Flag (any pedant will tell you that it is only the union 'jack' when flown onboard a ship) has also been given the same connotations by those wearing it on the costas and on BNP rallies?

The cross of St George unfortunately only has that perception among certain sectors of the English. Nobody objects to its use as the Arms of the City of London, and by many organsations, schools etc associated with London. It is also widely found in France, in numerous communes named after St George.

I love the idea of a PR agency being retained to give it back its identity. I am proud to be English, but prevented, by English perceptions, from having anything to do with my country's flag. Not that I have any desire to wear it or fly it in a foreign country, but I would like to be able to feel proud to be identiified with it.

Interesting point about the Celtic link between the Welsh and Bretons; but surely one could say much the same about the English and the Normans?

[Tresco]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

Isn't google wonderful, I googled ' burping of the american flag' and got some strange results.  [/quote]

[:D]

I sometimes wonder what we ever did without it. However, I'm constantly frustrated at not being able to access a good academic Library.

I'm considering paying for access now.

OK, TU. I've been very lazy waiting for Lori or Possum Girl to tell me, and now here you are with something that I have to investigate further for myself.

It's a hard life.

[Russethouse]

I'm going to be unusually controversial now (totally unlike me, of course). :p:p
 Re perception of the Cross of St George within the UK.
  I think that English people who do not understand why so many find the English flag offensive are being extremely insensitive or deliberately obtuse.  Like it or not, it's a flag that has been tainted with the image of hate and right-wing politics over decades. How many of these same people see the Swastika/Svastika and think of a beautiful and positive ancient symbol dating back thousands of years? In my early teens, I remember almost passing out when I say the original image of the Svastika on an Indian woman's sari in London. My Jewish English teacher explained the origins to us.
 Another point is that, whether people like it or not, the evils of the British Empire are on the whole attributed to the ''English'' within the Union. So, if an ethnic group (in this case English) are perceived by many as having generally b uggered up a good chunk of the world over a few centuries, its flag is hardly going to be well-loved. :p:p
 I hear voices crying out - but what about the Union Jack?!  Well, this is where image and perception are important. The Union Jack has been made ''relatively'' sexy over recent decades by the fashion industry in the West.  Buy a Reebok or Lonsdale trainers for your child and there will be a UJ.  Who is offended by UJ Boxer shorts, tee-shirts etc etc?. When I lived in Paris in my younger years, I distinctly remember a few French friends with posters of the Union Jack on their walls as a trendy decorative item.:p:p
 :p:p
 Perhaps what the Englishers need to do is to employ a mega brilliant advertising agency to render the flag of St.George sexy and unthreatening so that its perceived links to hooligans/racism/imperialism can be dispelled. :p:p
 :p:p
 It can be done - the UJ is an excellent example.  Also, It's quite trendy to see people with tee-shirts and jackets emblazoned with CCCP. The wearers are not promoting Soviet imperialism but it's another symbol that has been rendered unthreatening and trendy. So, there is hope for the English flag for those who are bothered. :p:p
 :p:p
 On a personal level, I think that ALL  flags can be worn/flown with pride, c rapped on (preferably) or burnt  (waste of matches) -  I don't give much of a toss.

 

To some extent I agree but I can't help feeling that LG is a tad out of date, the flag of St George is gradually being reclaimed by those more moderate in their views than Mr Griffin and his supporters, which in my view is quite correct, the English should reclaim it as something to be proud of.

As for being seen as  having generally b uggered up a good chunk of the world over a few centuries the English are certainly not the only guilty parties in messing up the world, maybe just the ones who have been made to feel  most guilty and say too little to redress the balance?

Oh and by the way God Save Our Gracious Queeen is the British National Anthem, not just the English- so sing up![:)]

PS

I love the idea of a PR agency being retained to give it back its identity. I am proud to be English, but prevented, by English perceptions, from having anything to do with my country's flag. Not that I have any desire to wear it or fly it in a foreign country, but I would like to be able to feel proud to be identiified with it.

Then just take it back - reclaim it! Refuse to buy into the negative side, if we all do it we will not need to spend £££ on some PR agency !

[Tresco]

Sorry I can only concentrate on one lag at a time.

I found this;

"Flag Desecration Amendment (1990, 1995, 1997, 1999-2000, 2001, 2003, 2005-2006): Congress has made seven attempts to overrule the U.S. Supreme Court by passing a constitutional amendment making an exception to the First Amendment in order to allow the government to ban flag desecration. In 1990, when the amendment was first brought up, it failed to achieve the necessary two-thirds majority in the House. After the Republican congressional takeover of 1994, it has consistently passed the House but failed in the Senate". (My bold)

 

On this interesting page. http://civilliberty.about.com/od/freespeech/p/flagburning.htm.

 

This indicates that it hasn't become law in the USofA.

[oglefakes]

[quote user="hastobe"]

Not sure what you are saying ogleflakes - that the average Frenchman would be happy if the British residents of Eymet publically burned the French flag and demanded that the flying of same be prohibited?

Kathie

[/quote]

I never mentioned flag burning.  What I read were some comments along the lines of:

1) Re flag burning, I would deport any foreigner doing that in the UK to any of the flags of the UK.

Personally I think it should be ignored, as reacting lends too much credence to the burner [:(]

2) But hanging a flag in another country and/or objecting to that country's flag, well that is arrogant.

I'm not sure of many cases were newcomers have objected to the flag of their new country. But when it comes to flag waving in general,  I think there is a context to this. Sometimes it is 'patriotic' at other times it is confrontational.  I have American friends who have the stars and stripes hanging in their garden and it is for the love of the flag. I think it is hard for foreigners to appreciate how much the flag stands for to Americans. e.g. "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." whereas when I saw it in a street in Bradford, it was pressumably an "up yours" thing to the neighbours, for being 'wrong'. This was according to a (white) local .

3) We are and always will be a guest in THIS country too.

Nope, don't see that one [:)] Having grown up in Australia, a country made of newcomers, I would disagree. Your sense of belonging to a place comes from within and you will be part of the furniture depending on how much you desire and (most) other will treat you accordingly. There are people in this forum who are part of their local council, pressumably with the support of at least some French people who see them as adopted French?. In Oz, there are members of both the upper and lower houses, including Brits, Canadians, French, German,  Irish, Cambodian, Chinese, Russian, Loation, African... None of them would consider themselves "Guests" I think sometimes it is hard for people to say the word immigrant, especially if they have read the Daily Mail too often and associate that word with swarthy and property prices.

My brother's (Aust. born) girlfriend in Oz, has parents and grandparents from Italy. Neither of the 'Nonas' speak a word of English, even after living there for over 35 years! To me they are on a par with the tattooed (I have a tat, for the record)  shaven headed, football strip wearing bods in the 'Del Sol' who never have any intention of learning Spanish, integrating in any manner. So they are all "guests", because they don't desire to belong.

I have yet to move to France, but once I have been there a while, made friends, paid

taxes, become involved in community activities; i.e.  become integrated in general,

I would consider myself an immigrant, but no longer a 'Guest', much the same attitude I had in my ten years of living in the UK, i.e. taking citizenship, volunteering for community activities, taking an interest in UK politics, listening to Radio4 [:)] etc and not one flag singed.

Cheers

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Georgina"]

If you call a Scot, Welsh or Irish. person English, they usually put you right. If you called an English person any of those, they would not flinch[:)], [/quote]

Nonsense!   They would deny it vehemently, and quite rightly so.

In my experience, English people regard themselves as English.  I see no problem with that.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Georgina"][Indeed the celebration of Christmas a tradition of our Christian country (although I appreciate not everyone is religious but still enjoyed such celebrations) has been played down, including not allowing children to play the nativity scene at our childrens' school!

 [/quote]

Not allowed to do nativity plays in school in France either. 

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="oglefakes"]

3) We are and always will be a guest in THIS country too.

Nope, don't see that one [:)] Having grown up in Australia, a country made of newcomers, I would disagree. Your sense of belonging to a place comes from within and you will be part of the furniture depending on how much you desire and (most) other will treat you accordingly. There are people in this forum who are part of their local council, pressumably with the support of at least some French people who see them as adopted French?. In Oz, there are members of both the upper and lower houses, including Brits, Canadians, French, German,  Irish, Cambodian, Chinese, Russian, Loation, African... None of them would consider themselves "Guests" I think sometimes it is hard for people to say the word immigrant, especially if they have read the Daily Mail too often and associate that word with swarthy and property prices.

My brother's (Aust. born) girlfriend in Oz, has parents and grandparents from Italy. Neither of the 'Nonas' speak a word of English, even after living there for over 35 years! To me they are on a par with the tattooed (I have a tat, for the record)  shaven headed, football strip wearing bods in the 'Del Sol' who never have any intention of learning Spanish, integrating in any manner. So they are all "guests", because they don't desire to belong.

I have yet to move to France, but once I have been there a while, made friends, paid

taxes, become involved in community activities; i.e.  become integrated in general,

I would consider myself an immigrant, but no longer a 'Guest', much the same attitude I had in my ten years of living in the UK, i.e. taking citizenship, volunteering for community activities, taking an interest in UK politics, listening to Radio4 [:)] etc and not one flag singed.

Cheers

[/quote]

I think the 'guest' issue is more to do with the perception of others around you.  We have an elderly English gentlemen living in the next commune - he has lived here for 30 years - but is still referred to a 'the English'.  Similarly a Polish gentlemen living in our village in the UK  is still often referred to by his neighbours as the  'the Polish gentlemen' - and he has lived in the UK for 40 years!!   However much you may feel you are 'adopted French' I think it is usually the second generation immigrants who actually achieve that goal. 

As an aside (and going back to the original topic) - it seems only a small proportion of those living in France have taken French nationality.  If you don't take that step - how can you ever be anything other than a 'guest'?

Kathie

[samdebretagne]

Oh no, not this topic again!  I just got done having this same discussion on another site!  :-)

I am definitely not a guest- the word guest implies that one is invited in and is there for a short period of time, and I refuse to believe I am a guest in my own home.   I live in France, I am a resident of this country.  Personally, I think "immigrant" is probably a better term here - ie, just because someone is still known as "l'anglais" or "le polonais", it doesn't mean they are a guest, just a foreigner who's decided to make his home elsewhere.

[hastobe]

Just out of interest Sam - have you taken French nationality?

Kathie

[samdebretagne]

No, but only because I am not yet eligible for it. Roll on September 2008!