LanguedocGal

J.R's gone native  I found that peoples social lives did not exist beyond when they married until they were retired. Another 40sth’s opinion. As someone only a few years older than you, I’d say DON’T do it if intelligent social life is important to you. The French are dreadful conformists at the best of times and, in the provinces, you’d be bored out of your mind looking for ‘’intelligent and varied’’ social life. I’m also a teetotaller, very aware that drinking is an important part of their social life and that high alcoholism is a major problem. Also, away from the major French towns, their crushing conformism can leave independent Brits of our generation stunned.  Possibly, that’s why these areas attract the retired.  Don’t believe their so-called romantic ‘rebel’ labelling of themselves.  They’re as rebellious as my boring little toe (hence dull) and that also applies to those in the major towns too (not that I've met them all, but why let scruples get in the way of  excellent advice?[6]). Eating lunch at 11.30 am or 14.30 would be rebellious for them. Worst still, in the provinces, once they hit 40……     By the way, to socialise, good French is obviously considerably more important in the sticks than in a large town. So, what is your French like? My suggestion: If you want a slower and quieter pace AND social life, move to a town of around 50-70K people, as you’ll have a lot more choice and guaranteed ADSL/Broadband.  J.R's comment above is accurate.  Perhaps do the year at your parents’ place and use that time to find a suitable town.  By the way, as a singleton in your 40s (especially without children), it’s extremely easy to find a partner in a town of  50-100K inhabitants, assuming you like backward mucho macho intellectually challenged men and accept that 90% will come with children. Around here, I’m amazed at the amount of men in their 40s, 50s etc that go to discos week after week. They also think it’s exciting. EEEEEEEEK!!![:-))] However, if you’re the timid traditional type, a tiny town of under 10,000 may be just up your street, so feel free to ignore the above.

I’m a little irked, though not surprised, by the amount of self-satisfaction and gloating that’s coming through in some of the above posts. So no one here benefited from the easy availability of credit and its effects over the past decades then?  How saintly and prudent of you all. Well, I did and so did most in my entourage and we are thankful to have had the opportunity, but we also bled when interest rates were 15% and repossessions rife in the early 90s. You win some and lose some. Economic cycles mean another boom and bust will come again in so many years time. I assume that, as many here are of retirement age, you’ve all been through this a few times before. I may knock the dodgy methods of rapacious brokers who blatantly lied, however, as someone mentioned above, no one forced anyone to take out credit. Easy credit is not a crime, though it’s popular to knock it.  Perhaps we will eventually discover the best way to deal with it without getting too burnt. In a modern economy, easy credit is also wealth generating (as Ian says) because it’s not just about buying luxury goods or funding house acquisitions (though nothing wrong with that); it’s equally about having money to invest, launch businesses and generate employment. A severe credit squeeze doesn’t just affect the housing market, as it has a negative knock-on effect on lots of other areas. The lack of easy credit in France over the past two decades has also been an important factor in the economy remaining sluggish for years now. Too much risk and you may burn or do well, however, too little or no risk means you won’t burn, but possibly die of boredom waiting for things to happen. Incidentally, over the years, France has brought out a raft of (confusing) government backed financial incentives to encourage the housing market. So, what exactly is THE French approach? Is there a single one?  100% mortgages have been available and, no doubt, still are. I don’t know to what extent and perhaps not as much as UK or US, but I know someone who got one, despite a low salary.  If she got one on that salary, I suppose a lot of people out there have them too. She had no local connections or assets but is a ‘’fonctionnaire’’, which may have swayed it. I agree that French banks have always been more cautious when lending to French people in France, but I’m not too certain – judging from reading the economic press – that they or their foreign offices have been that cautious when lending in world markets. End of 2008 figures will probably reveal their true full losses from the subprime markets. Irrespective of what’s happening in the UK market and the perceived ‘by some’ evils of easy credit, the French economy is going to present enough surprises (read cuts to public services) in an attempt to bring public debt down to 60% of GDP, as demanded by the EU. These will certainly impact on the economy and housing market and can be discussed on here ad infinitum.

[quote user="cooperlola"] (20) In accordance with the prohibition of discrimination on grounds of nationality, all Union citizens and their family members residing in a Member State on the basis of this Directive should enjoy, in that Member State, equal treatment with nationals in areas covered by the Treaty, subject to such specific provisions as are expressly provided for in the Treaty and secondary law.[/quote] Coops, I generally agree with you on this health issue, but not in this case. [quote user="cooperlola"]Now, to my mind, if  .... (and non EU citizens who have the right to reside) can benefit from CMU, then you should be allowed to pay into it too.  Thus I believe one still has a case [/quote]But what has EU Laws got to do with the rights and status of ‘’Non-EU Citizens’’?  This is not as straightforward as it might appear and people ought to stop trying to use it to justify their grievances against the changes.  In order for non-EU citizens to reside permanently in any EU country, they generally have to satisfy a multitude of conditions (including financial/visa/interviews at embassies etc etc) that EU citizens do not. What is required is determined by the bilateral agreements that EU countries have with the individual countries and some are more stringent than others, but that’s not EU business.  Furthermore, and perhaps even more important, is that the non-discrimination element of the EU regulations quoted above relates to ‘Union Citizens’  no relevance whatsoever to the status and rights of ‘’non Union Citizens’’. What exactly does EU regulations have to do with this category of residents? Do EU citizens want to go through the same hoops they have to (medicals/financial/visa etc) before being allowed to settle within EU member states? As EU Citizens, we benefit from  EU laws and some then rile against those that ‘appear’ to discriminate against us on the surface. Within EU Law, individual countries have the right to determine their own health policies. The fact that non-EU citizens can join the CMU, having met the extremely stringent settlement conditions, is NOT an EU matter. However, there would be an argument, if some EU nationals were given this right and others not, which is not the case here. [quote user="cooperlola"]However, what it seems to me they cannot do, is discriminate against you for being a non-French European. [/quote] But is that what is happening? Were the OP to be an early retired non-French EU citizen who had lived and worked in France and cotisé on the same basis as a French national for the relevant years, then there would be a 'discrimintation' case to answer. Benefits from la Sécu stem from contributions (including the high employers contributions) made over their working lives IN FRANCE, where they’ve taken their early retirement. EU early retired, like the OP, have not made these contributions in France and have not been resident here, so where is the discrimination? The alternative would imply that La sécu gives EU settlers 'preferential' treatment. (The fact that UK rules are based on residence has no bearing here).  I agree with Will’s line of thinking. From a British taxpayer perspective, the British government ought to abolish the benefits of the E106 in order to put British citizens moving to other EU countries on an equal footing with other EU citizens and save a few bob.  As far as the OP is concerned, what has happened isn’t pleasant, but c’est la vie. We all make plans based on current conditions and these can change at anytime in our home countries too. The OP has the advantage of knowing before upping sticks, which was not the case with those who had been forced into the system and then unceremoniously kicked out again. That was a REAL argument: the OP’s one is emotional, but has no logical basis. Edit: my post crossed with that of BaF

Back to Spain. Sprogster, like you, I think it’s more rational to compare like with like. Compare the crime rate of a densely populated town of 200,000 people to a sparsely populated commune of 1000 residents, for example, gives a terribly misleading overall impression. Logan, re the price crashes in Spain. I cannot speak for the new developments in coastal regions, as the issues are complex indeed. However, even if prices drop in some of the major towns, it’ll have to be by at least 50% before owners lose out, unless they bought within the last 3 years.  I know people who bought in Seville and Barcelona and whose properties appreciated by up to 300% over 5-15 years. Also, these flats are in lovely old buildings located in or near the town centres, in areas that were once rundown and undesirable, but now highly sought after; nothing resembling those ghastly soulless developments that sprung up in so many coastal regions over the past 20/25 years. I wish I’d had the intelligence to buy something in a crummy area in central Barcelona 15 years ago. As it happens, if prices crashed 50% (wouldn’t actually wish that on anyone), I may be able to pick up a 45sqm studio.[:(] What do you think will happen to property prices in major Spanish towns in the medium term?

[quote user="Gastines"] I wonder when comparing if posters ever return from whence they departed?  We used to live in Bournemouth.I was in Boscombe the Lower end in my early youth and my wife from East Howe/Kinson. Working class families and all that went with it. Bournemouth centre and coast side was considered the home of fairly wealthy and the shops in Westover Road considered the Bond Street of the south coast but how things change. Boscombe now noted as rife with drugs/prostitution and thieving and Bournemouth noted for sand/sex and sleaze. Popular now as a Stag/Hen Party weekend and usually followed in monday's local rag by reports of various fights/glassings etc . etc. [/quote] Gastines, of course it also goes the other way. There are two areas in central Paris that, in the 80s, were no more than dives (we loved them), and avoided by the good people. These are now so upmarket that flats once worth the equivalent of  £100K then are now worth between 500000 – 700000 euros. Also, in these same areas, you can have a Chambre de Bonne of 6sqm (yes, SIX sqm, we checked last week) at a mere 40K euros upwards. On the other hand, I now live in an area that was, once upon a time, the Belgravia of my town, but over the last half a century or so has gone the other way due to the greatly reduced fortunes of the rich vigneron families that used to own the magnificent properties. That’s life, I suppose. Who knows, perhaps someday soon, this area will be the new Marais of Languedoc. I'm sure we can find similar examples (yours and mine) in most cities in most countries.

[quote user="Mel"] My questions are, has anybody heard of this type of incident before, and is the Paris Metro a place to be avoided?   [/quote] Is this post a wind-up? The Paris Metro is used by millions everyday. Avoid it if you wish - more space for the users - but I really can't take your post seriously; fortunately, BaF does.

[quote user="valB"]Our friends do deny any crime in their area but I still wonder why they HAVE to keep the bars on the windows for the insurance. ...[/quote] Perhaps their insurance company is taking the Issp, because these bars are a fire hazard. I hated living in a building with them and I know that in Seville in winter, fires are not uncommon. Relatively few homes have central heating, so too many people resort to odd and dangerous types of heaters. Whenever we heard fire engines in winter, we always wondered (with reason) whose paraffin heater under their living room tables had just caught fire. Perhaps people shouldn’t necessarily take the existence of Iron bars on windows as a sign of insecurity. If you visit North Africa, it’s clear that the Iron Bars influence in Spain comes from Moorish architecture, thus a couple of years before insurance companies got in on the act.  It’s odd that some insurance companies frown on them because they’re a fire hazard and others insist on them. ValB, is your friend’s place modern and are these bars required on all their windows or just the ground floor ones?    Like you, I’m interested in this thread, so perhaps Davey50 could start another one on Cyprus and France and keep this one for Spain? Inkflo, where did you live in Spain? It may be useful for people to know where people lived in Spain and where (not your address) they have moved to in France.  It makes a difference in the comparisons. Someone who moves from a sleepy isolated Spanish village to Marseille may not see things in the same way as someone who moved from a more dynamic region to a lost hameau in la France profonde. Logan, If it’s a living then avoid France. If it’s fun, sun AND a living, go to Spain. If it’s peace, quiet and vegetables to grow, rural France is for you. IMO, excellent and spot on! Edit: this software's font system is rubbish![6]

[:D] Twinks, thanks for the translation, but LG ain’t paying nuffink for it, b’coz cheapskate is her middle name. Four heads, in LG’s case, means 1 with half a brain and 3 filled with the Languedocian soleil, which tends to send her off on the most improbable délire. Sorry JK, t’were but a little wishful thinking. LG thought that if the lovebirds were rehoused somewhere else (preferably Antarctica), we’d get to see less of their omnipresent gueules and decent folk could occupy that pad. A small step to resolving the Parisian housing crisis.[Www]

[quote user="Panda"] Hi End of school proms have been big in the UK (the bit I came from) for about 10 years.  Panda [/quote] That's what happens when you don't have UK TV or keep abreast of current events with the DM: total ignorance of vital social developments. [:-))]

Couldn't delete double post. This software is still top!

[quote user="TWINKLE"] Well I heard that LG has two heads so.......[:D] ! [/quote] Only on good days, Twinks, normally it’s 4!  [6] JK, my sorcellerie powers inform me that you are déménaging à Paris. Consider your accommodation sorted, Lassie!  I know of a fabulous bijou résidence bien sécurisée that will be available shortly when the current occupiers are chucked into the Seine by the populace and forced to set up their love nest on a péniche. The property comes with a Chef and all the cleaners you’ll ever need. Quick, get your dossier (avec RIB) off to the neat little Palais in the 8th ardt before it’s snapped up.  Not merely a witch of multiple heads, I’m also a source of useful info and nowt as irrelevant as Coop's knowledge bank. I mean, what’s she done for people lately, eh?[Www]  

Hmmmm, SB, it appears we're invisible. If we did a hot striptease, do you think the good folks would notice?[8-|]

Like SB, I haven’t got a clue either Johnny P, but to bring your post back to the top, I thought I’d tell you something truly fascinating that you really wanted to know. Stockport is twinned with one of our Languedoc towns, Beziers. As a languedoc resident, it's my duty to inform you of that very interesting fact.  Admit it, you wanted to know that, didn’t you? If you already know, then it's my duty to ensure you don't forget. [Www] Seriously though, are you talking proms as in American school proms or music events?  Pray tell!

Benjamin, even within Spain, Andalucia is known as a bit of a backwater, so I hate to think what it could have been like to live in rural Andalucia. I lived in Seville (city) and that was challenging enough. However, are you suggesting that Andalucia was more expensive than where you live now in France? Breizh seemed to  have been shocked by the cost of living in Cataluyna too, but high cost of living in Andalucia, I would not agree; certainly not compared to Languedoc or Cataluyna. Bureaucracy wise in Andalucia, I agree. I sometimes wanted to smack them to wake them up in Seville.[+o(]  so it must have been praC in rural Andalucia [8-)].

Breizh, with regards to Barcelona, the only thing I recognise in your post is the cost of property. It just shows how we all perceive the same things differently. [:D] Catalan can be a pain granted but, in my experience, not necessarily in Barcelona itself, unless you are talking about the ‘region’ of Barcelona and not the town.  I’ve lived in Andalucia and can say that Cataluyna is much more expensive.

Logan, your assessment of both countries is very interesting and I agree with you on most points. However, I wondered about the following:   Local officials and politicians are corrupt and work on a scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours basis. It’s traditional and part of the cultural life. I’m surprised you make a distinction between the two countries on this point, as in my eyes, you are also describing France here.  Quality of life As it’s subjective, I know that you are talking about what YOU consider it to be. However, ‘quality of life’ differs enormously depending on whether you are 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 75 etc.  Most people contributing to this forum seem to be within the middle to upper limit of the age cycle, hence your definition is affected by that.  My point is that I don’t think that ‘quality of life’ in France on the whole is that great. A lot of romantic licence (plus a certain amount of blinkers) is involved in maintaining this myth.  Downsizers’ lives are certainly not a good reference to determine this, as you need to have generated income somewhere to afford this ‘quality of life’. It depends very much on a lot of factors and a French pensioner living on 700 euros a month pension with rent to pay or an average person on the SMIC again with rent to shell out may not quite see the QOL that you enjoy. Also, a relatively well-paid ‘middle income’ person with a normal mortgage, typical everyday expenses, long and expensive commute to work etc may not agree. None of this is unique to France, of course, but it’s also the norm, even if not within the ‘expat’ community.  I’m not saying that quality of life in France is worse than in Spain, simply that the generalisations by relatively affluent immigrants is not a particularly reliable indicator of the daily drudgery of the average person. Don’t forget that France has an incredibly high suicide and depression rate (how does one explain the QOL in that context?), as indeed Spain has terrible alcohol and domestic abuse problems etc. I enjoyed  and agreed with 90% of your assessment though.  Alan Zoff ''That's why Spain is so good for holidays. It has a very relaxed atmosphere. But longer term, I would prefer to be part of a culture with greater pride in their way of life. It may be harder work, but more satisfying overall.'' Are you suggesting that the Spaniards do not have pride in their way of life or have I misunderstood?

[quote user="lebois"]Good stuff guys, many people are registered in France as well.  Furthermore, many pay taxes in both UK and France.  We should count for something because we are still paying in and voting.  This petition has been started, with 5.5 million expats worldwide I'm not sure if 1 MP would be the way to go.  But who am I? http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Votes-Europe/?ref=votes-europe [/quote] 5.5 million ‘expats’ worldwide? No doubt that a lot of those are emigrants who’ve not put their foot in the UK for years, perhaps little interest in UK related matters (which this isn't in any case) and have their own day to day problems to worry about in their ‘home’’ countries’. Others may also be true ‘Expats’ who are employed and have no interest in any of this or who may actually agree with the ruling etc etc. How many people on here were concerned about the callous 'Sans Papiers' policies until it looked as if these issues may affect them in a round about way? The point in my first post was that residents of France should concentrate more on the fact that they live in France and it’s their French local representatives to help them. I would expect a French UK resident to appeal to their 'local' MP if they needed to appeal against a British government ruling too, and not run back to France to take up our Députés time.  Emigrants of any nationality are not children who run back home to mummy and daddy when things go bad. Anyway, I thought a lot of people here despised the Nanny State? I know there's no harm in following your strategy, but as so often with 'expats' on this forum, alternative views are rarely welcome, to the detriment of many IMHO.

[quote user="BJSLIV"] Why would they/should they care?  If you move from area A to B within the UK, your MPs change, so why is a French resident the responsibility of any British MP when they have their constituents’ interests to deal with? As you retain voting rights in your last registered constituency they might hope that you would carry on voting for them from your foreign retreat. After all you could vote in  three General Elections,  and who knows your vote might save their neck if they have a marginal seat!. [/quote] That’s really stretching the political clout issue to a euphoric conclusion. I understand that there are a few thousand and not tens of thousands of people affected and, presumably, they originate from all over the UK. The parliamentary seat would have to be critically marginal for the MP to be desperate enough to shift his energy from wooing the more numerous local constituents to trying to change French govt policy in order to win 1 vote (or a handful at most) from a foreign resident in their ‘foreign retreat’.  Sorry, but I can’t see the latter taking precedence somehow, unless the MP has a political death wish.

[quote user="Anton Redman"]Write to your ex UK MP at least adressed in handwriting explaining that you understand why neither system can fund large number of migrants but that broadly there are as many French people working in the UK as there are British people living in France and that after for example 50 years funding a 'pay as you go' health care system in the UK it seems wrong that you have to wait 5 years before joining another 'pay as you go system' in France.[/quote] Why would they/should they care?  If you move from area A to B within the UK, your MPs change, so why is a French resident the responsibility of any British MP when they have their constituents’ interests to deal with? Surely, if anyone affected wants help on their personal case on a local level, they should be contacting their Maires/Députés/Sénateurs? Some people on here have to decide where they are actually resident. I’d be annoyed if my local Députés were spending time lobbying for the interests of French nationals living in Germany/Greece or wherever else  (with their own local representatives) when there is so much for them to sort out for the local population. I’m one of those who believe that this is a French Government issue and they have already and rightly made considerable concessions to redress a flawed (IMO) law. For those who seem to have a problem accepting that it’s strictly a French govt issue, wouldn’t the British Foreign Secretary be a more logical person to contact than your former MP who frankly should not be doing the job of their French counterparts? For those who are ‘’truly’’ aware that they are French residents for better or worse, find out who your Députés/Sénateurs (the more left-wing the better) are and put in strong appeals to them. Those who have engaged in local ‘bénévolats’ type activities and shown true commitment to their communities since arriving in France, should stress this in their appeals.  Get letters of support from local organisations you belong to and character testimonies from your Maire if you know them. It will not do your appeals any harm for them to see that you’ve really got yourselves involved in the local community and you have a right to be treated as a fellow citizen. Screaming that we are British and pay local taxes/invest in local artisans etc etc and it’s inhumane does not mean much. Those investments are not altruistic and are purely for your own benefit after all. See it from their perspective; if you are resident, the govt does not lose those local taxes and the health service will continue to benefit from the PHI when the British government E106 funding stops. It’s a win win for the government, so harass your local representatives.  Oh, if it's a UMP member, don't forget to say that you agree with the changes in principle and that you think the President has found himself a stunning new mate.[Www]. 

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"] I kept asking him why if the French economy was such a basket case her GDP was one of the world's largest. This he was unable to answer. I've asked the same question to quite a lot of people and no-one has ever been able to explain this paradox to me. I would genuinely like to know. The money must be coming from somewhere. [/quote] Surprised a merchant banker didn't offer any theories. A few I've heard bandied about include the economy being propped up for a while now by a number of very well performing private multinationals (some heavily state aided) and Public Companies allowed to compete internationally with non state aided foreign companies, as well as much Disneyland  Public Accounts (That made me laugh[:D]). With what I've learnt since my return, the perceived state of being 'better off' that many state on this forum, is a huge mystery to me too, as far as the average French population is concerned. That's not to compare it to any other country, as that doesn't really make any difference to the plight of people here. I don't doubt for one minute that the expats have a fabulous time if they don't have to worry about the little things like paying rent (assuming you can get someone to rent to you), paying mortgages, finding a job even if you are highly qualified, getting small luxuries on credit and so forth.

[quote user="jon"]Despite so many posts by many people explaining and detailing the  poverty and hardship in France....according to the Mail on Sunday...today 13th Jan 2008French.[/quote] Good for you Jon, however, reading your posts on this thread, you, like many Brit expats here, sound as if you need to be reassured about France to justify your move.  You then provide yourselves with this reassurance by screaming the France is better than UK nonsense on a regular basis. If it is, then enjoy it, but I wouldn’t go around mouthing that off  to many of the younger generation, as many may think you’re senile. If you’ve made the move, then good for you, but why do you come across as insecure? Re Deimos and his ‘rubbishing France’ comment. What exactly does he call rubbishing France as opposed to rubbishing other countries? For those who talk of rubbishing France, perhaps you do not have enough French to keep in touch with what is going on in the country via local and national sources. As stated by many on here before, The DM et al should really not be your point of reference.  Imagine a French person living in the UK, getting information on the social, economic and political issues of the UK via the French media.  That’s hardly of much value. Don’t worry about how negative you ‘think’ some people on forums are (you’d weep if you heard some of the French then). Believe it or not, being ‘negative’ can also read as ‘realistic’, and it helps to prepare for some of the nasty surprises that a lot of people on here have had recently on the health issue. The head in sand method is rarely effective for very long and it normally just results in the sand sinking and the poor  *-rugger going down with it sooner or later. If you’ve moved here with loadddddddddddddddsa money (I’m jealous), your rose tinted specs can be as thick as you want. That’s always the prerogative of the wealthy, irrespective of where they live. I do not know how old you are, but if you’ve moved here for good, then you may be looking at having resources for anything up to 45 years, should you live to a ripe old age. It’s sad that people doing something as major as emigrating are so insecure that they need others to reassure them with ‘positive’ comments. It gives the impression that they're not ready for the experience warts and all. Will, I sympathise.

Oh not these jolly statistics again. (imagine a bored smiley here)  Can someone please explain why these stats tend to be trotted out (I'm sure they've been on here before) by people who do not actually understand them? Marton, do you understand these Stats? If so could you explain them to prove that you do? You may think that they support your anti immigrant ''freeloader'' argument, but when you really understand them, they don't. We've seen them before.  Tell me, do you represent the good o' quality monocultural element of the UK that the nation should be aspiring to resemble? (another yawn smiley). Edit: thank you, Betty, you beat me to it.

[quote user="oakbri"]  My wife is not from the UK and has never lived there.... Last year I took my wifes parents to the UK for the first time. -----  I was saddened by that remark but must admit, in contrast to where they are from where obesity simply doesn't exsit in the younger population...  Personally I don't think multiculturism works----, [/quote] In my experience, multiculturalism works when extremists of all kinds are kept at bay. Oakbri, I was interested by your claim of ''Personally I don't think multiculturism works...''.   However, reading your post, you say that your wife is not from the UK etc. I assume, therefore, that you married someone not of your ''culture''. I fail to understand your comments unless you can give me a definition of multiculturalism that I do not know.  I hope you realise that a marriage between a French and a Brit or a French and an Italian is actually multicultural (though not multiracial if they are both of the same colour). Are you saying that your marriage is a failure? So, as many people tend to write often on this forum... I'm confused.[8-)]

Just a little word or warning Mrs B. P. de Villiers is a well known right-wing eurosceptic despite being an MEP. You guys have been working hard on this campaign and it would be a pity to get people like him working against you. I'm not saying he would, but his politics are very Franco-Francais. He is ''perhaps'' one to be wary of  (hope I'm wrong) on such an issue as French laws are being challenged. 

[quote user="Ron Avery"]But that isn't what positive discrimination is about is it? [/quote] No, because how could you justify your rants then?  How about calling it the inconvenient truth?[6]