Titre de sejour (Yes, again)

[powerdesal]

I seem to recall that the UK Govt wanted to sort out the rights of UK citizens in the EU and the rights of EU citizens in the UK but the 'powers that be' in the EU refused point blank to discuss it.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Jo"]My S1 was withdrawn on the death of my husband as I am not of retirement age. My health cover is now provided by France, for which I contribute 8% of my income.

This will cease when I hit retirement age and will then be covered by an S1 from uk again......HA!! ...if they still exist!!

It was relatively easy to do and I hadn't been here the magical five years when he died.[/quote]

Hi,

      I understand that since Jan. 2016 the only income counted towards french health care under PUMA (which replaces CMU) is investment or rental income - ALL pension income is disregarded.*

Have you checked on this with your CPAM?

*http://www.leparticulier.fr/jcms/c_57158/couverture-maladie-universelle-cmu-protection-maladie-de-base

[Cathar Tours]

[quote user="powerdesal"]I seem to recall that the UK Govt wanted to sort out the rights of UK citizens in the EU and the rights of EU citizens in the UK but the 'powers that be' in the EU refused point blank to discuss it.[/quote]

I think it was playing with words in some newspaper, probably the Daily Wail. May wanted to start negotiating this straight away before Art. 50 negotiations started (in other words outside or the Art. 50 negotiations) but the EU said no as it was part of the Art. 50 negotiations and would be sorted out then but it would be the first item on the agenda.

The way I interpret it is that everything will be sorted out, with the exception of a free trade deal (which will be done afterwards if at all), with the Art. 50 negotiations.

That said we only have "leaked" documents on what form these negotiations will take.

On the issue of dual taxation EU member states use the OECD template at present but there is a move towards a unique EU model as initially discussed back in 2005/6 which would take the best bits from the OECD model. If you search on EU Dual Taxation you should be able to find some of the information there. IF and SHOULD this EVER become the new standard I don't know what happens to agreements with individual states and countries outside the EU. It could mean for example that the agreements move from the member state to the EU in general. Again who knows, so many questions and no answers from anyone.

[Jo]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="Jo"]My S1 was withdrawn on the death of my husband as I am not of retirement age. My health cover is now provided by France, for which I contribute 8% of my income.

This will cease when I hit retirement age and will then be covered by an S1 from uk again......HA!! ...if they still exist!!

It was relatively easy to do and I hadn't been here the magical five years when he died.[/quote]

Hi,

      I understand that since Jan. 2016 the only income counted towards french health care under PUMA (which replaces CMU) is investment or rental income - ALL pension income is disregarded.*

Have you checked on this with your CPAM?

*http://www.leparticulier.fr/jcms/c_57158/couverture-maladie-universelle-cmu-protection-maladie-de-base

[/quote]

Very interesting parsnips, since puma took over, in January 2016, I have had a notification of how much I am due to pay, but no effort has been made to collect despite repeated phone calls. This year, not even a notification, maybe, just maybe, they have decided I'm not liable!! All I need now is the same to apply to the social charges!!

[EuroTrash]

No invoices were sent out in 2016 because CMU (which was payable upfront) ceased to exist at the end of 2015 so CMU bill for 2016 and PUMA contributions are going to be payable in arrears based on the previous year's income so they couldn't be charged in 2016 either. So 2016 was a free year, and the first PUMA bills will be sent out this autumn for 2017, based on 2016 income.

Have I got that right? I think I have, although it always ties my brain in a knot.

I think there may be some confusion about what's included in the calculation - in fact I think it's pretty much all non-professional and/or foreign-sourced income, ie income on which no cotisations have yet been paid, and in the case of people who are asset rich but income poor they can charge contribution based on "lifestyle". But I think you are correct that pensioners are exempt.

As I understand it there may also be additional payments to be made by folk who have paid very small cotisations on a low level of professional income but whose main income is from other sources on which no cotisations have previously been paid. But it all remains to be seen what'll happen in practice.

[Jo]

So the fact that I also pay 8% of income in social charges might be enough??

The link parsnips supplied did mention private income and annuities being exempt as well as retirement pensions. Oh 'eck! It is complicated!!

[NormanH]

[quote user="powerdesal"]I seem to recall that the UK Govt wanted to sort out the rights of UK citizens in the EU and the rights of EU citizens in the UK but the 'powers that be' in the EU refused point blank to discuss it.[/quote]

That is pure Tory propaganda.

It is in Mrs May's gift to state that for example the UK will continue to pay for the healthcover of British citizens in France, or to guarantee pensions. Those 'rights' have nothing to do with Europe.

In terms of the right of residence the French position about the right of residence for non EU citizens is also clear and published.

Just more smoke mirrors and downright lies from the rabid  Brexiteers 

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, my reading of the rules on PUMA contributions was that if you were in receipt of a retirement pension, there would be full exemption from PUMA cotisations both for you and your spouse/civil partner. Under the section on exemptions on the Urssaf website it includes:

'les personnes ayant perçu une pension de retraite, une rente ou une allocation de chômage au cours de l'année. Il en est de même, lorsqu'elles sont mariées ou liées à un partenaire par un pacte civil de solidarité, pour l'autre membre du couple'.

It doesn't appear to me that it is merely the pension income itself that would be was exempt. What isn't clear is whether occupational or private pensions count in the definition of 'pensioner' for those under state pension age. It seems however that the liability for and amount of PUMA cotisations will be derived with reference to the previous year's tax return. I suppose in that case whether you are classed as exempt as a pensioner would depend on which boxes on the return that they refer to. As has been previously discussed elsewhere on the forum, France-derived pension income is entered in box 1AS, whereas foreign pension income goes in either 1AL or 1AM, depending on whether is is taxable in France or taxed in the country of source. This distinction between 1AS and 1AL/AM I understand is made to assist with the practicalities of the move to PAYE in 2018. In any case, as well as French income tax, I already pay CSG, CDRS, etc on my NHS pension, so feel that should count toward something......

[idun]

As far as I am aware, one cannot draw a pension early in France, in fact the private pension, the only one that people usually have in France, is 'linked' to the state pension in France. IF the state pension stopped for some reason, then it is my belief that the private pension would also stop.......... and no big lump sums from the private pension......... and I have no idea what that is about........ PLEASE, no one try and explain, because it still will never make sense to me.

SO bearing that in mind, being a retraite, is when the state pension starts, and only then in France. It would be when either the french pension starts, or the UK pension starts, which in the UK's case, is getting further and further away for so many and that might start being the case in France too, now Macron has the reigns, well reins[:)]. Newcastle and the CNAV or CRAM are in touch with one another.

[Daft Doctor]

Thank you Idun, I take those points absolutely. However, as far as declaring foreign pension income on form 2047 of the tax return, the only distinction asked for is whether it is from a 'private' or 'public' source. My NHS pension is 'public' in that regard, as of course would be the UK state pension. I enter this income in box 1AM of form 2042, as it is both taxed in France and subject to social charges. Whether or not I and Mrs DD would be exempt from PUMA cotisations would depend on which boxes are referred to on the tax return by the powers that be in making their calculations. As far as I can see, UK state pension income would also go in box 1AM of 2042, though of course it is excluded from the section on social charges since it is exempt. As you say, there may be some higher communication between the relevant authorities in both countries regarding who is receiving UK state pension, which may make a difference. It won't be until PUMA becomes compulsory for ayants droit in 2020 that we will find which pensioners will or will not be exempt from cotisations, but I hold out a vague hope that the 7.4% of my NHS pension that I currently pay in social charges might start to count for something........

[pomme]

Daft Doctor wrote

"Thank you Idun, I take those points absolutely. However, as far as declaring foreign pension income on form 2047 of the tax return, the only distinction asked for is whether it is from a 'private' or 'public' source. My NHS pension is 'public' in that regard, as of course would be the UK state pension. I enter this income in box 1AM of form 2042, as it is both taxed in France and subject to social charges. ."

Public Service pensions (NHS, local government, police, etc) go into Box 1AL/1BL on the 2042. On the back page of the 2042 you enter your Public Service pension in Box 8TK.

Private/company pensions are added to your State Retirement pension and go into Box 1AM/1BM on page 1 of the 2042 Box 1AL on the 2042.

On the first page of 2047 you enter the pensions and tick the appropriate boxes and also in 2047 section 6 crédit l'impôt Français (8TK).

If you complete online you should complete 2047 first. The figures should carry back automatically to 2042 when you get to the last page of 2047 and "report" them. Do not complete 2042 first online and then 2047 as the 2047 figures will be added to those already on 2042.

[idun]

DD but your public pension is not what the french would call your 'pension' as it does not make you eligible for an S1 pensioers healthcare form. And that is, as far as I am aware, the distinction.

[pomme]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"] In any case, as well as French income tax, I already pay CSG, CDRS, etc on my NHS pension, so feel that should count toward something......[/quote]

The CSG, CDRS, etc are not part of the French national insurance. The wikipedia article on cotisations sociales en France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotisations_sociales_en_France

 lists 18 groups of social security contributions!

The contribution sociale généralisée (CSG) created in 1990 is separate from social security contributions under French law: payment does not give entitlement to membership in social schemes or to social benefits

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_sociale_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ralis%C3%A9e

The contribution pour le remboursement de la dette sociale (CRDS) is a French tax created in 1996 in order to reduce social security indebtedness

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_pour_le_remboursement_de_la_dette_sociale

[Daft Doctor]

Pomme, although my NHS pension is a 'public sector' pension, it is not a 'government' pension for the purposes of the dual tax treaty. It is classed differently to pensions for policemen, firemen, civil servants and teachers, etc and is wholly taxable in France, and therefore is correctly entered in box 1AM, not 1AL.

I accept your point (and kind definitions) regarding the nature of CSG and CDRS, which of course I knew. My comment of hope in my previous post was very much meant as tongue in cheek.

Idun, again I very much take your point, but the notes to form 2047 state the following concerning the distinction between public and private pensions, and which box therefore to tick:

'Nature du revenu : cochez la case “public” pour les pensions versées au titre d’un emploi ayant été exercé

auprès de l’État, d’une collectivité territoriale ou d’une

personne morale de droit public (établissement public,

notamment) et la case “privé” pour les autres pensions. Pour le report sur la déclaration no 2042, voir page 1 de la présente notice.'

In the above context, as my NHS pension comes from work carried out and paid for by a public organisation, I consider it definitely 'public' in respect of form 2047. I have completed my declaration with this in mind, though how the French authorities process that information is really up to them.

[nomoss]

Just for general information.

I decided my wife and I should apply for Titres de Séjour back in June this year, and started to gather the necessary paperwork, as shown on the Service-Public site.

I then checked our Prefecture's site (Aude), found the requirements were slightly different, and noticed that they suggested making a rdv to make our application, so emailed the relevant department - [email protected]

They replied on the same day, enquiring if we are English. After receiving my reply they gave us a rdv on September 25th., and sent a list of the documents they required, which was again slightly different from that on the Prefecture's site.

I collected together no more and no less than the documents on that list.

I obtained a translation into French of our Marriage Certificate, but decided that paying 50€ a shot for translations of other documents, such as letters in English and Spanish stating the amounts of our pensions, and bank statements from British banks would be superfluous, as anyone with sense would be able to see that the figures on them correspond to those on our other statements and tax returns.

We presented our dossiers at our rdv on Sept 25th., which were briefly looked at by a very pleasant young lady. After she scanned our fingerprints on a clever machine we signed a couple of papers, were given receipts for our applications to serve as temporary documents, and told that we would be contacted by SMS when our Titres were available.

I received the promised SMS message last Thursday, Oct 26th., and went to the Prefecture early yesterday. It was quite busy, and we waited about an hour before our turn.

We were greeted very cheerfully by a young man, immediately handed our Cartes, and he explained that if we kept the accompanying paper slip carefully we would be able to get duplicates if we ever lost them.

An altogether very simple procedure and a pleasant eperience of French bureaucracy at its best[:D]

[idun]

You said that word which has my hackles up, enraged...... FINGERPRINT!!!!!

Why do they want them, need them?????

Is not as if the numpty gendarmes are good at catching criminals, and the french authorities has every french persons finger prints.

[NormanH]

That's because you are in the Aude.

It was  utterly different 20 odd years ago in Béziers...

Which is why I renewed in the Ariège last time  which was a little more like your experience.

[andyh4]

What is the validity of the TdS?

Timescale?

and what does it say about your right of abode - EU citizen, British or something else?

[NormanH]

This is my third one.

Mine says' séjour permanant' but I think it has to be re-newed every 10 years all the same

Toutes activités

but of course it is for a citoyen UE/EEE

I  gambled that it would be hard for them to invalidate it after Brexit since it is already in place, but of course with all the ar5ing about by Davis and assorted fools the climate may change to a less  favourable one.

[andyh4]

Thanks Norman

I was interested in what No Moss's one said.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]What is the validity of the TdS?

Timescale?

and what does it say about your right of abode - EU citizen, British or something else?[/quote]

10 years

"Timescale?" is that a question? If so, I don't understand it

Sejour permanent

I applied for a Carte de Séjour as an EU citizen. That is what I received.

It also has the same information as my passport

[andyh4]

Thanks Nomoss

It leaves open the question what happens when we cease to be EU citizens, but perhaps buys 8.5 years of peace.

Time scale was meant to mean time of validity = 10 years.

I will seriously think about applying - which was the background to the question.

Thanks.

[sueyh]

If we are applying as a couple do we need to do two separate applications? I have made copies of bank statements, Avis d’impots, electric bills and water bills.

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="idun"]You said that word which has my hackles up, enraged...... FINGERPRINT!!!!!

Why do they want them, need them?????

Is not as if the numpty gendarmes are good at catching criminals, and the french authorities has every french persons finger prints.[/quote]

I would have thought that a small price to pay. Nothing to hide...

[andyh4]

Sueyh

My understanding is that the application is personal so you will each need to apply