A year in France

[cooperlola]

[quote user="derf"]However you try and package it, you should not be registered at a British doctors practice, if resident in France.
[/quote]On the other hand, if Stan is over UK state retirement age when this happens, his EHIC and thus his healthcare costs are borne by the UK anyway.  There is nothing to stop anybody getting even routine treatment for an existing condition, anywhere in the EU.  I think some posters are getting a bit ott on this subject.  It's a question of admin' in most cases so it doesn't always cost UK residents any more than if this is done correctly by non residents. 

 

Anyway, Stan, if you are proposing to do this within two years or so of your retirement date then you should be able to get an S1 for anything between 18 and 30 months which will cover you (and the UK will pay so again, all this blather is moot).  Contact the DWP and find out what your entitlement will be then you can do this legitimately.[:)]  But you will have to do a French tax return.

[Stan Streason]

Goodness - I go and do some work - come back a day later and all hell has broken loose.

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments and sorry for anyone who got locked into an internet argument.

If and when we do this I will be a couple of years under state retirement age.  I will still own a UK property and stay registered with the surgery in my local village as I have been for the last 20 or so years.

I am very flexible and would prefer not to fly close to the wind.  The advice gleaned appears to be take 4 x 12.5 week holidays (return to UK to see the kids within every 3 month period) and I can even take my UK car over as long as it comes back regularly and is properly insured.

[Chiefluvvie]

[quote user="NickP"]

Well you woke a few up there Stan, as you say if you constantly pop back and forth and have no intention of ever being a French resident, just carry your European health card and carry on, we do this and have done so for several years. We may overstay occasionally by a couple of days , but hey! who's counting?  what they going to do; deport us? And before anybody jumps on that, I pay UK tax and paid UK social security for 50 years. I also pay all the taxes that I am liable for in France. So if you don't have a problem with a right hand drive car in France, why buy an overpriced French car that you can't drive in the UK should you wish. It's amazing what a response  this question always evokes, nearly as good as the "I'm more integrated than you scenario" Funny that the most emotional replies seem to be from "French residents" bit like the ex-pats who have returned to the UK and now want to stop other ex-pats getting pension increases. I was under the impression that we are all European residents and are entitled to the same level of care as a resident of which ever country you are in? 

[/quote]

As I have already stated - residency is not a matter of choice - it's a matter of fact, and with it come legal obligations around healthcare. It's not difficult to understand or even comply with. I'm just completely baffled as to why anyone whould choose number 18 rather than number 1 in the world when they have the choice!

Anyway - well done for managing to make your social security contributions for 50 years in the UK - admirable (!) - you only needed 30 for full pension rights.

Chiefluvvie

[Chiefluvvie]

[quote user="Stan Streason"]

Goodness - I go and do some work - come back a day later and all hell has broken loose.

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments and sorry for anyone who got locked into an internet argument.

If and when we do this I will be a couple of years under state retirement age.  I will still own a UK property and stay registered with the surgery in my local village as I have been for the last 20 or so years.

I am very flexible and would prefer not to fly close to the wind.  The advice gleaned appears to be take 4 x 12.5 week holidays (return to UK to see the kids within every 3 month period) and I can even take my UK car over as long as it comes back regularly and is properly insured.

[/quote]

Wow Stan - complicated life !

Chiefluvvie

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Stan Streason"]

I can even take my UK car over as long as it comes back regularly and is properly insured.

[/quote]Just be sure that's OK with your insurer.  Some have a 3 months in every year limit.  I don't think that Saga do though and I'm sure there are others. 

4 x 12.5 weeks makes 50 weeks by my bad arithmetic.  Too many in one year - you'd be a French resident.  Sorry.  It has to be fewer than 6 months in one year.

Easy legal way:

Buy a French car and insure it in France.  Flog it again after a year or keep it at your French home for holidays.

Get an S1 from the DWP and register for healthcare in France and get an EHIC  for European travel.

Fill in a French tax return and save yourself some money in the process.

[Stan Streason]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Stan Streason"]

I can even take my UK car over as long as it comes back regularly and is properly insured.

[/quote]Just be sure that's OK with your insurer.  Some have a 3 months in every year limit.  I don't think that Saga do though and I'm sure there are others. 

4 x 12.5 weeks makes 50 weeks by my bad arithmetic.  Too many in one year - you'd be a French resident.  Sorry.  It has to be fewer than 6 months in one year.

Easy legal way:

Buy a French car and insure it in France.  Flog it again after a year or keep it at your French home for holidays.

Get an S1 from the DWP and register for healthcare in France and get an EHIC  for European travel.

Fill in a French tax return and save yourself some money in the process.

[/quote]

Of course - I got carried away with the healthcare argument and forgot my original concern was tax.

What is the tax "year" in France?  Jan to Dec or some arbitrary date like 5th April?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Stan Streason"][

Of course - I got carried away with the healthcare argument and forgot my original concern was tax.

[/quote][:D]I don't know that it was you who got carried away, Stan.

Sorry - missed that last bit.  It's a proper, calendar year here which affects the calculations a bit and makes them a tad more complicated but you just declare from the day you bowl up to the day you leave and take up residence in the UK once more.

[Les]

My reply was not directed at Stan, I do not have a problem with what he proposes to do, it was to someone, who has been a resident of France for 9 years and still registered with his UK doctor.

[nomoss]

Matthew 5:6 [:)]

[PaulT]

[quote user="Jay"]Well PaulT and Chiefluvvie I find you both truly amazing. I visit a doctor in the UK and get a bit of advice and you can tell from the few words I wrote that I work the system both in the UK and here in France! Obviously you are both not only above reproach but psychic as well. 
 
Just to clarify the situation. I am French resident and have been for almost 9 years. I pay tax in France and the UK as well as cotisations and top up insurance.  
 
If you feel you need any further information to justify your ramblings just let me know.
[/quote]

Jay you wrote:

We have been resident in France for over 9 years. The last time we were in the UK on holiday I had occasion to visit the doctor. We had a good chat and he asked me how we were enjoying France etc. He then treated me on the NHS with no mention of payment. We are still registered at the practice with a friends address after all these years. "

You have quite clearly demonstrated that your use of the UK NHS is illegal as you are not resident at your friends address. Your 'working the system' that must be different to doing something illegal. MLud when I stole the item I was only 'working the system'.

[NickP]

What planet  do you live on chiefluvvie ? What is the thing about choosing number 1 rather than number 18? the mind boggles. As for the contributions qualifications, nobody has a choice, it doesn't matter how many payments are required, you pay every week that you work; until the age of 65. It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. 

[Chancer]

This is adressed to Paul T and Chiefluvvie.

You both speak of breaking the law and acting illegally in repect of either remaining registered with a UK GP or using a UK issued EHIC when staying in France for a prolonged period, could you please advise what this percieved law is please?

On the same subject you say that residency is not the choice of the individual, who is it that decides then?, It may sound flippant but if and when someone were to ask me am I a French or British resident I could then tell them that it is not for me to say but "XYZ authority".

[Rabbie]

Yes you do choose where you actually reside but then ou cannot pick and choose where you pay tax. This is decided by the relevant authorities and you can in fact be regarded as tax-resident int more than one country. I belive that US citizens have to make a tax declaration every year to the US government regardless of where they actually live. They would also need to make a tax return in their country of residence.

[nomoss]

[quote user="derf"]My reply was not directed at Stan, I do not have a problem with what he proposes to do, it was to someone, who has been a resident of France for 9 years and still registered with his UK doctor.
[/quote]

The doctor will be quite happy too. He is remunerated on the basis of the number of patients on his list.

Better have go at him as well  [:)]

[Russethouse]

 Why can't Jay (?) use his EHIC for his trips back to the Uk and free up a space for someone who lives locally to join the Doctors list ?

Stan, Garden Girl to and fro's to the Uk, maybe you should have a word with her.....

[mint]

[quote user="nomoss"]

[quote user="derf"]My reply was not directed at Stan, I do not have a problem with what he proposes to do, it was to someone, who has been a resident of France for 9 years and still registered with his UK doctor.
[/quote]

The doctor will be quite happy too. He is remunerated on the basis of the number of patients on his list.

Better have go at him as well  [:)]

[/quote]

I thought of that too, nomoss.

As he's paid on a per capita basis, he's more than happy for you to live most of year elsewhere and thus not keep consulting him in his surgery but he still gets his fee for your health care from the government.

Eh....these doctors aren't stupid, are they?

[Chiefluvvie]

[quote user="Chancer"]

This is adressed to Paul T and Chiefluvvie.

You both speak of breaking the law and acting illegally in repect of either remaining registered with a UK GP or using a UK issued EHIC when staying in France for a prolonged period, could you please advise what this percieved law is please?

On the same subject you say that residency is not the choice of the individual, who is it that decides then?, It may sound flippant but if and when someone were to ask me am I a French or British resident I could then tell them that it is not for me to say but "XYZ authority".

[/quote]

Hi Chancer - such a friendly forum!

I'll try and help you out although I'm pretty sure it's all been covered many times before on this forum!

First the issue of registering with a UK GP - in a nutshell GP's (and NHS Hospitals) need to satisfy themseleves that you are a UK resident in order to qulaify for free treatment / consultation on the NHS. Of course, they also have the option of seeing anyone they like on a private basis - pay-as-you-go! I find the following Citizens Advice info really helpful - all the info in one place! I'm afraid I can't quote you the aplicable laws on which the regulations are based but no doubt you'll be able to find them with a good internet trawl! Maybe it's the GP who's breaking the law ?

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_family/health_index_ew/nhs_charges_for_people_from_abroad.htm

Secondly on residency. I'm sorry if I implied one couldn't 'choose' where to live - normally you can if you meet the relevant country's qualifying immigration criteria. Most importantly residency is simply a matter of fact (i.e. not just choice) - it's where you spend most time and where your centre of 'activity' is. But, you can only have one 'principal' place of residence. So, even is you spread yourself between 6 or 7 different places or countries - chances are you'll spend more time in one of them than any other - even if it's only a day! So Chancer, if you spend more time in France than anywhere else - France can be deemed to be your place of primary residence - regardless of any 182 day rules.

As far as being a French resident is concerned - you're technically on the admin radar after 3 months in France (up to 6 months / 182 days in the Uk!). I've pasted a link below from the French Service Public website which clarifies this point for EEA citizens - working or not. As this discussion obviously focuses on those not working in France (workers automatically contribute so no issue there) the important thing is that, if they stay more than 3 months, they must have sufficient resources to not become a burden on the French social and healthcare systems. So this means either paying for it yourself, using EHIC or joining / affiliating to the French system either directly or via S1's etc. The link does refer to the relevant French / European legislation - but again I'm sure you can have a good trawl!

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml

Anyway - hope you find all the info useful.

Chiefluvvie

 

[mint]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Stan Streason"][

Of course - I got carried away with the healthcare argument and forgot my original concern was tax.

[/quote][:D]I don't know that it was you who got carried away, Stan.

Sorry - missed that last bit.  It's a proper, calendar year here which affects the calculations a bit and makes them a tad more complicated but you just declare from the day you bowl up to the day you leave and take up residence in the UK once more.

[/quote]

I'm sure Parsnips or Pickles would know how it works but it's just occurred to me that, if you timed your "move" right, you could get TWO lots of tax advantages!

Yes, I'm serious!  If you moved part way through the French tax year and part way through the British tax year, would you not get TWO lots of "personal allowances" or "parts" to set off against your income?

Someone, please advise Stan if and when this is possible and, if it is do-able, which is the best month for him to move for his year's French Leave?

[NormanH]

There is a lot of moralistic codswallop in this thread. Stan made his situation clear. He is not coming to settle permanently in France, and he is happy to pay his taxes in the UK, and presumably to use a EHIC for emergency medical treatment

If he wanted to come for 4  three month holidays  over a couple of years there would be no problem. As it is technically he probably should declare his presence to the French Impôts, although he would owe them nothing as he has no French taxable income, not even an OAP, and he should have some form of health insurance, rather than relying on the EHIC, but as this card is paid for by his taxes I can't see a great moral problem if he decides to stick with his English GP.

As I said before if he is aware of the worst that could happen it is his choice.

Much of what has been written about here is alarmist, and gleaned from internet links rather than experience or observation.

I am certainly completely legal in my residence, but the French authorities wouldn't know, as I sometimes pop into Spain or Italy with absolutely no checks, and I am sure they have no record of my visits.

Many of the Brits I know who have been here for well over 5 years have never filled in a tax form or bothered to get a Carte Vitale.  I do not condone this, but it just shows the reality of the situation.

Far from  some of the alarmist 'holier than thou postings' which seem to be intended to frighten rather than help.

I wouldn't do it, but plenty of people have an continue to do so.

[Gardengirl]

We come and go between France and UK, but ensure that we stay under 183 days in France. This may not be absolutely necessary, as our main residence and all our pensions etc are in UK, but we like to make sure we are above board.

We insure our car with Saga, so it's covered for 364 days a year abroad, and leave it in our garage in France when we spend time in UK, which is usually about four weeks at a time. We drive backwards and forwards 3 times each year, and fly inbetween,  finally driving back to England for a long summer break. We did look in to buying a LHD car to mostly leave in France, but as it's illegal for a UK citizen to drive a foreign car in UK, we decided not to.

It's an interesting point about spending time in other countries; we've noticed when driving in to Switzerland there's often nobody on duty to do any checks on passports etc.

Our health cover is an EHIC card plus travel insurance with good health cover, repatriation etc. It also covers us for our French walking groups, where insurance is required.

This isn't the same model as Stan is thinking about, but it works well for us and means we have a very active social life in France as well.

[Daft Doctor]

A few things. Firstly, UK GPs are not responsible for checking the authenticity of patient addresses. Each health authority (or Care Trust or whatever) has a patient services department charged with such matters. We've got better things to do quite frankly.

Secondly, Yes we GPs all like patients who never come as they help to offset the many who attend habitually and ritualistically, irrespective of whether they have any illness or condition which merits it. That being said, no GP I know would condone a non-UK resident willfully using a false address in the UK just to receive NHS care.

Thirdly, and this is crucial as Chancer specifically has asked the question, a non-UK resident (lets call him Mr X) using a false address to continue to be registered with a UK GP is commiting an act of Fraud, no special law is needed. Fact is that the NHS will pay an average of £67 per year to the GP for having Mr X on his list, irrespective of whether or not he attends. Mr X is defrauding the NHS of resources in this way. A small amount maybe, but Fraud nevertheless. If the UK system was similar to the French system, which is pay-as-you-go, no attendances or consultations equals no fees, then the argument may be slightly different. Surely (as a French resident) using a French EHIC for UK trips is the correct way of doing it, as then the French (IIRC) pay the costs of any necessary UK care, but only as it is incurred.

Finally as an aside to Chiefluvvie, the WHO may place an 18 place gap in the rankings between the UK and the French healthcare systems, but clinically we UK docs are every bit as capable as our French counterparts, and our performance is assessed and monitored in the NHS more than in most countries and certainly as much as anywhere in the world. Don't think that 'healthcare system' equates to 'medical capability' in any sense.

[mint]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Finally as an aside to Chiefluvvie, the WHO may place an 18 place gap in the rankings between the UK and the French healthcare systems, but clinically we UK docs are every bit as capable as our French counterparts, and our performance is assessed and monitored in the NHS more than in most countries and certainly as much as anywhere in the world. Don't think that 'healthcare system' equates to 'medical capability' in any sense.[/quote]

I, also, don't understand this perception that the French health services and French medical staff, generally, are somehow "better" than the NHS ones.

In many other places on this Forum, I, amongst others, have pointed out the inefficiencies of the French system of delivering health services with part private, part public finance.  So, I won't re-hash all those arguments here.

I might be just plain unlucky but my experience of dentists, doctors and nurses in France has, in nearly every instance, been inferior to my experience in the UK.  Admittedly, I have only lived in France for just under 5 years.  But, I HAVE moved departments and tried different surgeries, etc.

All 3 French médicins I have had here do not give me any confidence.  For example, I am asthmatic and none of them has ever tested my lung function, even when I have had severe chest and breathing problems in the winter.  In every instance, I have had to tell them what medication and what dosages I have.  Except for the one occasion, when I requested to see a chest specialist, no advice has ever been offered to me about my medication and certainly no review of what I am taking has ever been undertaken.

Thank goodness I had an excellent GP in the UK and I have continued to request from the French doctors the self-same medications and self-same dosages as she'd prescribed for me as they seem to be working OK.

Also, how sorely I miss my dear Asthma Clinic Nurse who knew everything I could wish her to about how to suggest treatment to make me better when I'd been prostrate with ill health.

As stated, I might just have been unlucky but my perception is that GPs in the UK get much more in the way of continuing professional training and development than French ones.

Now, I shall keep my head down before my comments get completely rubbished and someone or other starts shouting.

 

[Chiefluvvie]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]....... Finally as an aside to Chiefluvvie, the WHO may place an 18 place gap in the rankings between the UK and the French healthcare systems, but clinically we UK docs are every bit as capable as our French counterparts, and our performance is assessed and monitored in the NHS more than in most countries and certainly as much as anywhere in the world. Don't think that 'healthcare system' equates to 'medical capability' in any sense.[/quote]

Daft Doctor - I didn't mention anything about the medical capability of French v UK Doctors - you're twisting what I've said to defend your own profession / background - understandable but not fair. In fact - this is what the Wiki intro states:

The World Health Organization (WHO) ranked the healthcare systems of its 191 member states in its World Health Report 2000. It provided a framework and measurement approach to examine and compare aspects of health systems around the world.^[1] It developed a series of performance indicators to assess the overall level and distribution of health in the populations, and the responsiveness and financing of health care services. It was the organization's first ever analysis of the world's health systems,^[2] but has been subject to criticism of its usefulness and methodology.

Chiefluvvie

[suein56]

[quote user="sweet 17"] I, also, don't understand this perception that the French health services and French medical staff, generally, are somehow "better" than the NHS ones.

All 3 French médicins I have had here do not give me any confidence. 

Also, how sorely I miss my dear Asthma Clinic Nurse who knew everything I could wish her to about how to suggest treatment to make me better when I'd been prostrate with ill health. [/quote]

Apologies to the OP as I go slightly off tangent but ...

My experiences are similar to Sweets; especially in regard to the Practice Nurse; in my case in the UK one called Sandra, who was super efficient, super friendly and so deft - with whatever treatment/ act was needed - including the dreaded smear.

There is nothing wrong with either of the 2 GPs I have tried here in France but - and it's not a question of profiency in the language as my French is good - the treatment is not as engaging or as thorough as I experienced previously in Lincolnshire. But, perhaps, I was just fortunate in the UK.

Specialists here have been OK, but, again, it becomes a question of finding the 'right' one for you. French friends have been helpful with their opinions in this respect, but it is time consuming to find someone you can relate to and trust, and who listens to what you are saying without just to looking briefly at the symptoms before giving an opinion.

OK, whinge over. As I said, perhaps I was just very fortunate in the UK.

Sue

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Surely (as a French resident) using a French EHIC for UK trips is the correct way of doing it, as then the French (IIRC) pay the costs of any necessary UK care, but only as it is incurred. .[/quote]It depends.

If the person has an S1 from the UK then the UK pays.  If not, France or a private insurer pays.

 

A really interesting post, DD.

I'm totally with Norman on this one - it is up to Stan what he does.  It's a matter a) of conscience and b) or risk which it is for him to decide.  There's a simple way to do the whole year which he is aware of.  As to others who dodge the system already - they know how the system works, they know what the right thing to do is and if they chose to ignore it then no amount of pontificating is likely to affect the way they act as clearly they don't have a conscience to pri*k.  (Sorry, I cannot use that word in full due to the software.)