Headmistress of school

[Mishtoon]

Hi there,

I am posting this for any thoughts you may have.  I'm not sure that I will take this issue further as, having read the threads on Education in France, it seems to me that teachers and heads are appointed by the State and with the system being very rigid, perhaps no heed would be paid to an English mother like me.

The issue I have is this.  When I went to pick up my son, aged 6, from his Maternelle on Friday (he only has two days of term left before passing on into the Primary school), I walked up to the bench where my son was sitting with the other children to say 'hi' and the headmistress (who is also his class teacher) grabbed him off the bench and physically pushed him hard across the room shouting at him 'Go and show Mummy, go and show her!'  (This in the general melee of children and parents and pushchairs that is school going-home time).  I was shocked and looking for an answer as to what was going on.  I sat down on another bench with my son to ask him what is going on, why did she do that?  He started to cry and she then again came up and grabbed him from my arms and half shoved/half threw him across the room again shouting at him 'No!  You don't do that (ie: go to Mummy for comfort)'. 

I looked to the other teachers for some sense of what the hell was going on and they all looked away/down at the ground.  (The headmistress in the meantime 'handing over' the other children to their parents).  I grabbed my son and walked out of the school.  As I went out a little boy said to me 'He threw stones'.

My question is this.  If my son had thrown stones in the playground, why did the headmistress not take me to one side and calmly say 'I need to talk to you about something that happened in the school today?'  Why physically practically throw my child across the room???  To me she behaved like a child herself, not befitting the role she performs in the school and she certainly did not set a good example to the other staff, children or parents alike.

I have previously witnessed her grab children by the wrists and practically drag them across the floor and 'dump' them in another part of the room.

Before my son started her class (she runs the Grand Section) I asked around the other french parents what they thought about her.  The general feedback was that 'something was not right' but that there was no hard evidence to warrant anything being done as the children all seemed relatively happy and never came home with any complaints about her (perhaps being only 5 and 6 years old they wouldn't).

My question is this.  What is the law as regards physical punishment of children in schools, are they allowed to be that rough with them? What is the recourse for a parent?  I ask this partly for other parents at school as, having talked it through with my husband, with my child only having two days left to run at the school, perhaps it is not worth us making a great big fuss.

I know that many people feel the balance in the UK has gone the other way.  With teachers not being able to restrain or touch children in school now, the power has been given back, perhaps, to the children.  Hence the lack of discipline and bad behaviour in children's schools.  But I also think that there should be 'appropriate punishment' at school.  I was shocked to see the headmistress of our school in France behaviour, frankly, like a three year old.  She was annoyed with my son for whatever he had done and had a temper tantrum over it.

I later learned that my son with some other boys had been lifting some big stones out of the tiny flower bed and making a castle out of them, leading to another boy falling over them.  Fine, if he wasn't supposed to do that, then perhaps they should all have been made to sit somewhere and not allowed to play, or something else.  I do not have a problem with my children being punished at school in an appropriate way.  Quite frankly I have no respect for this headmistress and am glad my son is leaving.

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

[Tourangelle]

Difficult one.  I don't know that much about primary schools, as I work in a secondary school, but, you aren't supposed to touch the kids.  The one thing I do know about primary schools is that the headteacher is just a regular teacher who has a coordinating role. He or she is not the other teachers' "boss", nor do they have any particular power. So headteacher or not doesn't really make a great deal of difference. If you want to complain about this teacher, your should write to the Inspection Académique, but, first you must speak to the teacher yourself, (and if you do complain you must put that you have spoken to her in the letter) otherwise they will just tell you to speak to her to try and resolve it at that level.  That said, if your child is leaving the school, then is it worth the hassle?

[Deby]

Mishtoon, my heart goes out to you on this one.  I have been in a similar position to yourself with the headmistress being aggressive, unprofessional and not acting in an appropriate manner. I looked for support from other mums, they all knew of the problems but no one wanted to challenge her in case their child was picked on even more at school.  Only one mother challenged her and she eventually removed her daughter from the school.  I removed my children too and returned to England. I totally understand your quandry as your child is leaving, but if you have the energy I would pursue this, because your child is leaving and this is a better position to be in. I would go to the Maire in your Commune and speak to them and send an official letter of complaint.  I would also send a letter to the Inspection D'Academie and copy the Maire and the headmistress too.  It is true that Headmistresses are not other teachers' bosses but some wield their role of co-ordinater with zeal, they often make life a misery for these poor teachers too. Everyone will have an idea of what is going on but alas there is usually an apathy and fear of rocking the boat - occassionaly someone does.  The mere fact that writing to Inspector d'Acadamie will put the fear of good into her as her copy book will be blotted.

However, sometimes when a foreigner makes these allegations - don't be surprised that they may state that the french system is different and your expectations are different, this is when you will have to dig your heels in and be calm and professional and speak without emotion.

I would do the afforementioned on a matter of principle - for the benefit of all the other poor souls and the school, but that is me. 

I wish you the best.

[Athene]

As a UK primary teacher I echo what everyone else says here - do write! If your French is not good then write it in English. Forget French education rules, it is against the Geneva Convention and children's rights to do that with a child! AND tell them that!

[Framboise]

I was horrified to read this.  My four all all grown up now so thank heavens I won't have the problem of schools etc when we move, but I feel that you simply must take this further to stop another child sufferring as your son has done.  You are after all in the position to handle it better because your boy has moved up the ladder now.  Obviously this charming person has some sort of issue with your son - don't allow them to get away with it!

[Ron Avery]

I too was horrified to read of this behaviour. So write a letter complaining of the behaviour, the suffering, the potential injury that could have been caused and why it should never happen again.

Then read it to your son.

Then thank the teacher for instilling a bit of discipline into his life for once.  Sure bet is he won't throw stones in school again.

 Reading the bleeding hearts above (Oh  the suffering and anquish of the poor little soul[:-))]) Get real, its not half what he will encounter as he goes on through life.  The posts above speak volumes about why there is so much bad behaviour, ill discipline and lack of respect for others in schools and in society and reading above I think we have a good idea of who is to blame.  You reap what you sow[:@].

[Mishtoon]

Hi there,

Thanks for all of your replies. 

My French is pretty good so I decided to tackle the teacher this morning.  This is what I would do if I were in England and I felt I could not let it pass without addressing it.  My husband and I therefore went today went in to the school to see the teacher.

I asked what my son had done at school to warrant him being punished (I do not have a problem with him being 'punished' if it warrants it, what I do have a problem with is her physically pushing my child around).  I explained to her that we had been careful not to talk about it in front of him too much this weekend but that he had had a stomach ache all weekend and had not wanted to return to school this morning with lots of tears in the car.  This is a child who normally loves school.

A second, more mature (in my opinion) and level-headed teacher was there.  He said that the issue was that my son, with about 6 other boys, had dug a big hole and lifted some big stones out of the ground but that it was not a big issue.  They had done something, been told off for it and it was forgotten.  That my son should not be worried about returning to school, it was dealt with and over and not to worry about it. 

I explained to him that when I had arrived on Friday to collect my son, that the headmistress/teacher concerned had physically pushed him hard across the room, not once, but twice and that I felt this was the reason for his strong reaction, ie: he was frightened to return to school.

When I then spoke to the headmistress/his teacher she said that he had done a 'grosse betise' - thereby playing up what he had done whereas the other teacher played it down - and that he had been told off for it.  I explained to her that he had had a stomach ache all weekend and was upset at returning to school and that I felt it was because of the way 'she had pushed him across the room' when I arrived and had shown great anger towards him.  She said that he did not have a stomach ache before I arrived and that the stomach ache appeared when I came to pick him up! She said that she was angry and that was because of the bad thing he had done....

Not wanting to cause more of an issue for my son who was in tears next to me, we then decided to call a halt to the meeting.  I felt I had made my point.  I don't have a problem with my child being punished, appropriately, for something he had done at school.  This is a child who is naughty as other children are but is not generally a problem at school or at home.  He is happy, balanced, plays nicely with his sister and also argues with her, but nothing out of the ordinary in my book and my husband and I feel we deal with it appropriately.  He has had a fantastic year at school and has stated all year how much he enjoys it being with his friends and his school report was excellent.  We feel that this has tainted an otherwise good year for him and have tried to play up the fact that he is now moving to Primary school anyway.  But it leaves me edgy and uncertain about 'how things are done' in France and what other things may go on which we do not see and which the children feel unable to tell us or perhaps do not always have the words to say due to their young age.

I will think about whether to take the incident further by reporting the teacher concerned.  I was trying really, I think, to get a feel for whether this is the accepted norm in France.

Thanks for all your comments.

 

Kind regards

[Athene]

We are talking about a small child here! You should never push children about! It is bully boy tactics! Totally inexcusable! You would ruin a child's respect both for self and for the teacher! For children to learn there needs to be repect and understanding on both the teacher and pupil parts. Very few children of this age in our UK schools do not want to please their teachers and they will work really hard! I know! I have taught this age group for many many years! Children need a firm framework of decipline that they understand  the boundaries of and they know that to go outside the framework results in punishment. There are acceptable ways to punish children for misdeamours - missing a playtime or being kept in after school with parents' permission for example! Most schools today have system of behavious reports that are kept on file and if something happens, it is communicated that day to parents. If a set number of these reports builds up, children may lose the priviledge to stay in school for their lunch and have to go home! More reports and this leads to suspensions and ultimately expulsion.

We are talking about a small child here. Times have moved on from Charles Dickens Ron!

[cooperlola]

Hmm.  Having been brought up in (I assume, sorry if I'm wrong, Ron), the same spanking era as you - when physical punishment was the norm and perfectly acceptable as far as society was concerned - I'm not in the least bit convinced that it did me any good at all, or that I would have been very different if I hadn't been whacked on a regular basis.  As I grew older, I just got more and more contemptuous of the process, held out my hand and took the slap and just felt increasing contempt for the parent who felt this was an acceptable behaviour pattern.  Years later I still have no respect for said parent. Was that desired result?  I don't think so.

[Panda]

Hi All

My son has been in school here for 4 years now and I would say from my experience whilst this is an overly strong reaction you should be prepared for fairly strong handling of misdemeanours from the teachers.  In my sons maternelle you would have been called out in front of all the other parents and would have been told in no uncertain terms what your son had done and how they had handled it, this would leave you embarrassed but perhaps less annoyed.

In primaire the normal punishment which is highly effective is to punish the whole class if one child misbehaves, I strongly support this method and believe it is much more effective than staying behind after school (and certainly better than physical punishment).  The child in questions gets it in the neck when all of the class can't play football or go swimming just because he/she played up and this group pressure and the unpopularity puts a quick halt to the behaviour.

I really feel that if you complain nothing much will happen, just my opinion.

Panda

[opas]

Does your school not have a contract for the parents and child to read and sign? we have one about  pages thick of all the schoolrules , re not hitting,stealing etc.

I am afraid you must be a rather more patient parent than me though as to this incident as I a m sure I would have ended up in a fight with this woman if she had treated my girls like that in front of me.  A similar incient happened to my eldest in UK when she was 5, I didn't witness it , one of the other mums had who had arrived at school early, I didn't actually take too much notice of what she said at the time and thought she was exagerating.........untill I saw the tight finger hold marks on my daughters wrist that night.  I made a formal complaint and she was dismissed from the school(she was a supply teacher)

panda, nothing official may happen if the poster makes a complaint, but It may make the teacher take stock of herself!

[Russethouse]

 I agree Opas - I feel the OP has little to lose as her son is leaving, just the knowledge that the event has been noted may make a diference to the teachers future behavior.

[Mishtoon]

Hi there,

Thanks for all your comments.  I really wanted to generate a discussion of this type as I really wanted to explore what others felt.  One of our reasons for coming to France was that we felt there is a distinct lack of discipline in British schools and respect for teachers.  Having said that, I do firmly believe that there is a way to discipline children.  I believe this should be a partnership between parents and children.  My children are 'disciplined' at home.  I do not hit them.  I have hit them in the past but I have learned that this does not generate respect, it leads to more unruly behaviour than before and they start to hit one another.  What message am I giving them by hitting them??  On the one hand telling them it is wrong to hit other children and on the other hitting them myself.  I can't square the two in my mind so prefer to strongly leave them in no doubt that their behaviour is unacceptable either through a series of punishments - being sent to room, taking away a favourite toy, not being able to go to a friend's house as promised, that sort of thing.  In my book that generates the 'right' response.  My children realise that they have behaved badly, they apologise for the behaviour and then revert to 'appropriate' behaviour.  This has taken a few years to cultivate in them but I don't see what it shouldn't be any different in schools.  We also use a series of 'rewards' for 'good' behaviour.  Surely this is a more positive approach?

In my book, whatever the view of the previous writer to this post, I do not believe that the teacher at this school behaved appropriately.  I do not, as I have said, have a problem with my child being 'disciplined' - taken out of the playground to sit in the classroom on his own, for example, so he is left in no doubt that he did something wrong.  I do not and will not agree with him being shoved forcefully across the room by a teacher who was in a foul mood.  That is all that it was.  She is there to set an example about the 'right' behaviours to the other children, parents and other teachers and to generate respect for her profession.  She did not do that.  I believe that the right way to behave would have been to have taken me and my son to one side and talked to us, leaving us in no doubt that he had done something unacceptable (as well as the other children involved) and for us to talk to him about not doing that particular thing in the future. 

I believe myself to be a caring, responsible parent and I would take great note of any teacher saying my child had behaved badly.  I would talk to my child about this and make sure they understood what they had done and why it should not be done again.

Shoving a 6-year old across the room whilst shouting at him and doing this in front of a room full of perhaps 50 parents and 70 children, is not 'discipline' in my book.

I have had several other parents come up to me today, who witnessed that behaviour, and whose children will be in this teacher's class in September.  My child will have left by then but imagine what they are feeling about their children joining her!

[Panda]

Hi

On reflection I do agree Opas, the teacher will think twice next time if  something 'formal' is done.

I also agree with the post that stated you were calm, I too would have probably had it out with her there and then, easy to say sat here typing, a lot more daunting in amongst all those parents though.

I do hope you don't let it get to you, have your say in what ever means open to you and move on, it will be for the best for both of you, it's a bad experience but not one I hope that will have any long term affect on either of you.

Good luck with it,

Panda

[Wendy]

Mishtoon, I can tell you this, if she had done this just ONCE to my child in my presence - for whatever reason - Id have been straight in her face!. This woman needs to be relieved of her post and soon...if she does this sort of thing in front of the parents, what on earth does she get away with when they are not there?.

I can tell you right now what my 'recourse' would have been...it would have been swift, fast and she would not have forgotten it!.

She sounds like she needs a verrrryy long holiday...away from small children.

[Russethouse]

 Yes Wen, and the teacher would have been off to porte plainte (hope thats how you spell it!) and instead of her being in the wrong, it would have been you.

Surely best to write to the correct authorities saying that she used inappropriate force in the situation and that other parents who saw this are now questioning her judgement.......I would also mention that the other teacher sought to play the 'offense' down while the 'headmistress' was obviously out of control. She also set a very poor example to the children.

Tempting though it may be to show/demonstrate displeasure or anger, the way to win  IMHO is to go through the process absolutely correctly, never putting a foot wrong, so that the other party cannot find fault

[Deby]

Tempting though it may be to show/demonstrate displeasure or anger, the way to win  IMHO is to go through the process absolutely correctly, never putting a foot wrong, so that the other party cannot find fault....

The above is very true.  You cannot 'lose it' in France! As soon as you do you are on the backfoot.  I have 'lost it' once with some mother in the playground who saw it fit to hit my son (c.2yrs) because he pushed her little girl over (c.2yrs) - the playground went silent and everyone shied away.  I sought the police (large French city), I ranted, I raved and the police did nothing apart from their comments on how things are different in France (fear of Foreigners). I wished I'd punched said woman in the face - bloody hard to be angry in a foreign language!  If I'd been calm and rational I'd have been taken more seriously and would have been able to Porte Plainte.  There are the processes of which there are many in France but if followed well and 'evidence' provided - oh the French love 'evidence' then I would have succeeded on this low-life woman getting her cummuppance (sp!).

Ron - you need to step out of the dark ages and your comments are antagonistic!  Why do we get these stupid comments on the Forum - I guess people just like to offer differing opinions for the sake of it - you know like throwing a pebble into a pond and watching the circles/reactions!  Do people really like to go through life doing this?  For goodness sake take a chill pill and stop pontificating (sp!.!!!

Deby

[Panda]

Personally I find your comments Deby far more disturbing than Ron's, if you had 'punched her in the face' as you so delicately  put it, how would that have looked to the children around you. 

When I said I would have acted , I was thinking along the lines of speaking out against her actions and telling her on the spot it was wrong not making the playground look like Newcastle on ladies night! 

The teacher in question needs to know she was wrong to act in anger, I personally think this should be done without your child knowing that you do not support her 100%, making them think at any age they can question a teachers authority will not help them in the future, this is I think what Ron was getting at when he talked about lack of respect. 

I feel it is important for kids to learn early on that adults should be respected, there is a general lack of respect of authority in the UK today and whilst I believe in encouraging children, leading them to think that they can question everyone and everything is not the answer.  

It's a whole other subject but I have witnessed young adults starting out in the work world and failing because they can not take being told what to do, their parents never did it and their teachers were restricted from doing it. 

Panda

 

[Deby]

Personally I find your comments Deby far more disturbing than Ron's,

Of course I didn't punch her because that would have been irresponsible in front of children - I was merely expressing my frustrations and anger!!! So dont lecture me on something that was not done how dare you! The point of the post was to highlight the fact that despite emotions it is much better to keep your cool.  For goodness sake!

thinking along the lines of speaking out against her actions and telling her on the spot it was wrong not making the playground look like Newcastle on ladies night....

I dont know why you tried to use that analagy - I am civilized, but emotions do run high when you want to protect your children.  Gee!

[cooperlola]

Whoops.  Reading this thread, it's so easy to see how these things get out of control.  Keep calm, report the incident to the proper authorities and follow it through to its conclusion.  Do NOT lose your cool because with it, you lose the high ground.  For evidence as to how this works, just look through all the posts above again.  It's so easy to turn a rational debate into a slanging match and thence into a fist fight (happily not possible in cyber space!!!)

[Russethouse]

I agree Cooperlola.

Ron, the net result of this teachers action is that parents and children alike are concerned that this woman is taking out her bad temper on a small child. If she was a really good teacher this sort of action should not be necessary - Yes, everyone has a bad day, but when you are a teacher you do not take it out on your pupils.

BTW I have friends who moved to Spain and found this idea of parents getting involved in children's squabbles and smacking other peoples children, common in their daughters school. They didn't like it at all, they eventually returned to the UK anyway and while that wasn't the reason, they were pleased to get away from it.

[Panda]

Deby

I can see why you get yourself into such situations if you truly believe I was lecturing you, I was merely saying I found your post a bit OTT, no one should even talk about punching anyone in the face for any reason in my opinion. The analogy which I used (not tried to) was the vision of two women fighting, not a pretty sight and one that I have only witnessed in Newcastle, hence it's use.

Now take your own advice to Ron (his input to this forum is appreciated) and take that chill pill.

Panda

 

[Deby]

Deby

I can see why you get yourself into such situations if you truly believe I was lecturing you, I was merely saying I found your post a bit OTT, no one should even talk about punching anyone in the face for any reason in my opinion. The analogy which I used (not tried to) was the vision of two women fighting, not a pretty sight and one that I have only witnessed in Newcastle, hence it's use.

Now take your own advice to Ron (his input to this forum is appreciated) and take that chill pill.

Panda

Tosh!

Deby

[Russethouse]

 Can we get back to the situation in question please ladies ?

[Panda]

Sorry Russethouse, I think perhaps on this rainy morning I am being a teeny weeny bit provocative for fun. Can't resist with some people.

Sorry All..  will stop now..