Headmistress of school

[Ford Anglia]

I've only had ONE instance of teachers bullying my kids, and it wasn't violence, but plain nastiness.

It happened when my youngest, who is 18 this August, was in year 6 here in the UK, so 10 years old. He went, on entering year 6, from a bright, sunny little boy that all his previous teachers had loved, to being unhappy and trying to get time off school.

Talking to him over a period of a few days, I could see that the new teacher was the problem, and further investigation revealed that this was a man who had been run ragged by my eldest, (who had ADD), and was, or seemed to be, trying to get his own back through the youngest.

I made an appointment to see him and went along with my wife. (Now there IS a fearsome character. Head ogf a large primary, respected by her peers and the kids, and feared by any nasty parents[:)])

She talked to the teacher in question, while I sat back and listened to his responses. After 10 minutes, I leaned forward so as to be in his face a bit, and said, very calmly, and quietly, (a bit like the old gunfighters[:D]), "My son thinks you're a bully.......and I'm inclined to agree with him. Now, what are YOU going to do about it.?"

He backed right off, and we had no further problems, although I don't think he and my lad ever really LIKED each other.

There ARE nasty teachers out there. Not many, and some I cannot understand WHY they are teaching because they genuinely seem to dislike children. Dealing with teachers like that is a pain, but has to be done.

I must also say, that like Ron, whilst I don't condone viloence towards children by teachers, we have heard VERY little of what punishment, if any, the little boy who threw stones received from his mother?

I would sincerely hope that SOME form of deterrent was used, since if not, he is likely to grow up thinking he can do as he pleases.

 

 

[Russethouse]

FA, From what the other teacher said it doesn't look as if the child ever threw stones:

 He said that the issue was that my son, with about 6 other boys, had dug a big hole and lifted some big stones out of the ground but that it was not a big issue.  They had done something, been told off for it and it was forgotten.

In any case had the teachers punishment been appropriate it surely should have only required a harsh/stern, supportive to the teacher, word from the parent.

[Rob Roy]

Just to play devil's advocate here for a minute - have any of you tried to control a class of 24 or 25 French primary school children while trying to teach them?  The teachers have a hard job getting them to behave and listen and maybe, just maybe, it was the end of a very long and very stressful year (let alone day) for that teacher. The child did not fall, was not hit and if his mother hadn't witnessed it, and obviously shown some reaction, he probably would not have thought any more about it.  

[Wendy]

While I would not have punched the stupid female in the face I certainly would have made a very unpleasant scene ( and it would have involved some 'contact'). And, Ill bet those kids would have silently cheered.

This woman is a bully and bullies need to be dealt with...by someone their OWN SIZE!.

Just because she is a teacher why does she get special treatment?...if someone grabbed your kid in the street in the same way how would you react?. 'OK, hold it a moment while I pursue the proper legal avenues before you get what you deserve'...??

Sorry, I am not PC at all. The UK has gone too far down that road unfortunately, which is why most of you are over here. Admit it.

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]Just to play devil's advocate here for a minute - have any of you tried to control a class of 24 or 25 French primary school children while trying to teach them?  The teachers have a hard job getting them to behave and listen and maybe, just maybe, it was the end of a very long and very stressful year (let alone day) for that teacher. The child did not fall, was not hit and if his mother hadn't witnessed it, and obviously shown some reaction, he probably would not have thought any more about it.  [/quote]

Thats their job, no one said it was easy! If it was a one off incident then going through the correct channels in a cool, level headed way will give the person concerned the chance to state their case.

What about the other boys concerned?

 

 

 

[Patf]

What has happened to change things from the times when children were afraid of their parents finding out that they had been in trouble in school? Because they would get another "clip around the ear'ole" from their mum or dad. I'm not saying the change is a good or bad thing, I'm not sure, except children did have more respect for authority then. I think this is a bit like Ron's point. 

[Athene]

In primary schools, children need to have a really positive relationship both with their teacher and their school mates. It is a terrible idea to punish all the class for something one child has done and ruin the whole ethos! Parents need to know what is happening in school and a good school will welcome its parents in anytime they have some free time - the more the merrier! There should be nothing to hide! Teachers today try to foster the idea of a class family that work, play and laugh together and where the respect is mutual! When this regime is established you have happy children who behave well,  learn well and love their school. You have happy parents because they see their children's progress educationally and socially (both being of equal importance!) AND a happy teacher who loves their job and cares for her class family.

[Rob Roy]

Teachers today try to foster the idea of a class family that work, play and laugh together and where the respect is mutual! When this regime is established you have happy children who behave well,  learn well and love their school. You have happy parents because they see their children's progress educationally and socially (both being of equal importance!) AND a happy teacher who loves their job and cares for her class family

And I've just seen a pig flying past!

Sorry, but this is not what happens in reality - the children can't wait to tell tales on any of their peers they think they might be able to get into trouble, quite often in the hope of taking the focus off what they have done themselves.

Russetthouse: I agree it is up to teachers to be able to control their class, but respect for elders and good behaviour don't suddenly appear when the child goes through the school gates - they should be taught at home from a very early age. It is not the teachers' job to teach this but to continue reinforcing it .

[Wendy]

Fine. But if there is a reason for a teacher grabbing my child and throwing him across the classroom (an ecole maternelle child!), in my presence, then I had better be informed about it BEFORE it happens in front of me!.

Most of us know how short-fused teachers are in this country. But sorry, in ecole maternelle, handling children this way is absolutely WRONG!.

If it had been my child she would have been charged with assault.

And I was educated in catholic schools by nuns.

[mascamps.com]

In some ways I can understand a teacher "losing it" towards the end of the year and the throwing happening once.

For it to happen twice within minutes over the same incident indicates to me that this is a person who should be banned from teaching small children before they cause a serious injury or perhaps kill one of them (and let's not forget that it doesn't take a whole lot of violence from an adult to kill a small child). The first time is "losing it", the second is an unprovoked attack which is why, had it happened to one of my children, the teacher would now be under arrest for assault. The Geneva Convention, Rights of the Child, or whatever is neither here nor there as regards the second incident: it's purely a criminal matter and needs to be treated as such before that "teacher" does something rather more serious to someone else's child.

After all, this violence was provoked by a child piling a few stones on top of one another and inadvertantly causing an accident. We're not talking about a child throwing said stones at anyone else and delibrately causing injury (not that such a thing would excuse the teachers action either).

Incidently, whoever said that the parent responding to the second action by doing "something" to the teacher would get into trouble is talking nonsense. It's simply acting in self-defense (ie defending their child against an assault). That the defense would have happened in the grounds of a school doesn't matter: "adult" law doesn't stop at the school gates.

Would it have been different if the child had been 14 and not 4? Of course it would. The standards to which nursery teachers must be held is somewhat higher than those teaching older children. Yank the arm of a 14 year old and you're not likely to do any real damage. Do it to a 4 year old and you can dislocate the shoulder or perhaps even break the arm. Push a 14 year old in the stomach and it's not too comfortable to them, do it to a 4 year old and you can cause serious internal injuries.

Finally, to those who say we respect the discipline in the French schools: yes, but it has to be appropriate. In the "good old days" in the UK, there might well have been canning but there wasn't "common assault" as has been described here.

 

Arnold

 

[Wendy]

Amen.

It seems to me that people here are afraid to stand up to the teachers.

And with regards to the UK...it's not the kids that are the problem in the schools; more the people who have the kids in the first place.

Its not the teaching thats the problem...its the 'parenting', and lack of it,  that is ruining the UK and its schools.

 

[Ron Avery]

Why were my comments disturbing Panda?

 Most of what I have read so far is that the kid who was in the wrong and who probably did a lot more than mummy is letting  on, should get away scot free and the teacher gets the sack or disciplined.

What would have been mummy dear's reaction (or the other bleeding hearts on here) if he had thrown the stones and taken another kid's eye out? "There,  there darling it wasn't really your fault, it was that other child's fault for getting in the way?"

Isn't British justice wonderful?  No wonder teachers are quitting the profession in droves.

[Russethouse]

But Ron, the child didn't throw a stone, he got up to some childish prank with other children, not alone, yet he seems to have been singled out.

 As a general point I don't believe responding in kind is the right response either, there is a correct procedure and it should be followed. In much the same way that you expect a Doctor to tend to injuries as well at the end of their shift , as at the beginning, you expect a teacher to look after/discipline children in an appropriate manner,  in the same way (if not better) at the end of the term as at the beginning.

I was a childrens nanny for several years: IMHO you get children to behave by having a good relationship with them and making them want your approval.....if a teacher hasn't achieved that by the end of term and resorts to rough handling in anger, as this person has, then something is amiss. It's not up to the parent to worry about whether the incident was born of exhaustion after a hard few weeks or even personal problems, that is between her and her employer.

Take it from me, I'm no 'bleeding heart' a stern look was often enough for my charges......

[Deby]

Thank you Russet House.

I don't believe in molly coddling children, pandering  and allowing children 'politicall correctness in the name of free expression' and allowing justifications for bad behaviour.  I believe in good manners, good behaviour and children understanding No means No.

I do not believe in adults in positions of authority screaming, shouting, pushing, hitting in order to exercise their authority and respect.

Respect is earned and authority is admired.

Deby

[Ron Avery]

"But Ron, the child didn't throw a stone, he got up to some childish prank with other children, not alone, yet he seems to have been singled out."

RH you do not know what you have written above occured at all, neither do I, but whether or not he threw stones is immaterial, although I doubt somehow that a teacher would react like this one if all he had done was a prank, remember the OP said she found out later that all he had done, found out from who I wonder???

It seems to me that the innocent party is getting punished here and the guilty party taught that it does not matter if you do wrong Mummy will protect you from punishment.  Nobody respects that kind of justice.

[Russethouse]

The truth is that neither of us know, we only have the OPs word, however in my house my kids knew if they did wrong, then they deserved all they got, so no good moaning to me or their father about it, but if I thought there was an injustice I would 'go out to bat for them'.

This mother thinks there is an injustice so she should take it further, esp as her child will no longer be in the same school. If she is wrong, then no doubt she will be told so in fairly short order. If she is right then the teacher may hesitate to treat another child the same.

The child in question is only 6, what has he learned? That he mustn't play with stones, yes......(there were surely other ways to teach that lesson) but also that it is OK to give in to temper...after all his teacher did !

 

 

 

[Ford Anglia]

[quote user="mascamps.com"]

Finally, to those who say we respect the discipline in the French schools: yes, but it has to be appropriate. In the "good old days" in the UK, there might well have been canning but there wasn't "common assault" as has been described here.

 

Arnold

 

[/quote]

Really? Which priviliged school did YOU go to? In my grammar, we were regularly smacked around the head with open hands and books, rapped on the skull, hard, with knuckles, pushed and pulled about at any teacher's whim.[blink]

And as for "caning" I once saw a fifth form lad caned so hard, he had blue stripes over an inch wide on each hand, and couldn't grip a pen with either hand for two hours.

[Panda]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Why were my comments disturbing Panda?

[/quote]

I wasn't saying they were Ron, more that the comments about a playground punchup were far more OTT than yours which were under attack .  I think I've made my feelings on this known, my son knows that when he is at school the teachers word is law and regardless of what the teacher did to enforce this I would, at least in front of my son, support her.  My nephew is a teacher and has to deal with parents creating hell over small issues, completely undermining his authority and sometimes in front of a class full of kids, who does that help?  He even has ridiculous threats of 'you put me in detention and my dad says will come around and thump you' sadly this is not just childish my dads bigger than yours, this is a real threat which teachers see plenty of..

 A world of mutual respect for all is miles away from real life, in my view there has to be a hierarchy, kids leave school today believing they can question adults judgement and they get a big shock when the join a company as the junior and are told exactly what to do and when to do it a lot simply can not cope. 

The fundamental issues in all of the teen bootcamp type shows are that when you see the errant child at home they listen to nothing their parents say and openly verbally attack them, telling them they are stupid.  They can not handle anyone telling them what to do, they have no understanding of authority. They completely believe that they know better than their parents or teachers and any other adult, they have been raised to believe this.  They are taught then over weeks to respect their elders in essence and not to take their parents for granted. 

 

Panda

[trumpet]

I was a teacher of music. And after being in the army (Brit and American) I can honestly say teaching was the hardest.

In my school days it was as some of you here have posted (Ford Anglia). You messed about you got punished, there and then. Smacked caned whatever. You also got more of the same when you got home......if you were daft enough to tell your parents.

The first time I taught, as student teacher I could not believe how things had changed, this was in 1990. The emphasis shifted from teacher to student.

Teaching any subject that involves movement is especially hard i.e. Drama, Music.

On no account can you lay a hand on a student. Right or wrong thems is the rules.

There are restraint measures you can resort to, but you had better have a good reason to enforce them.

I gave up the job. Tones of unnecessary paperwork and frustrations. I loved the job and was good at it. I liked most of whom I taught. But it wears you down in the end. Many a time I wanted to let fly and believe me I came close. But you have to have that restraint and as Hulk Hogan used to say ''Intestinal Fortitude''

The teacher was wrong in the fact that she let herself down. We all abhor violence I am sure, so even more important to reach inside you and show restraint.

I hope you can resolve the situation by discussion. Certainly you must do something. I have been on both sides of the fence as a parent/teacher.

My kids were no angels. I would always take the teachers side as children need to know that this will happen all through your life. Situations where you are in the do do for no fault of yours but........no smoke without fire.

I cannot tell you the amount of times a pupil from my tutor group would get into trouble, come running to me to get their side of things in first. But I always new that all is not as it appears. You have to listen to both sides, as quickly as possible. I fear to long may have passed now for any satisfactory resolution. Shame.

[Wendy]

I have to say that, as a mother, I am just appalled at the last few posts on P3 of this forum. I mean, do none of you have children?.

We are talking about a child in ecole maternelle here, a child under the age of six. Any parent who sat and allowed their child to be mishandled the way that child was should be bloody ashamed of themselves. And there is no darn excuse for it, whatever the kid did.

And you people who excuse the 'teacher'...you are just as bad as she is.

My son is five, and god help anyone who tried to lay a hand on him. For whatever reason.

His teachers can guide him...not hurt him.

[Framboise]

I am mother of four, now all grown up sensible young people.

No teacher has the "Right" to manhandle a child, especially not a six year old, but I maintained "MY Right" should the situation warrant it.   However, it never became that necessary since a certain look from me always did the trick, but coupled with the word "RIGHT....." delivered  in a certain tone they all knew I meant business.   

Personally  I recall a maths teacher from my old secondary who could control a classful with one such glare, he was hard as nails and everyone knew it yet he was the most respected of all the staff.  Admired and loved even despite the fact he never laid a finger on any of his charges either - he didn't need to.  However, there are cases where there should be a proper punishment for persistant chancers which would certainly halt the progressively worsening behaviour, but removing a parent's Right to Punish was never going to help the situations we see now.   That saying I do not believe a 6 year old should be launched at his mother - twice - over a matter that was apparently already dealt with so the teacher in question is wholly wrong.   The school governors should be made aware of this case and deal with it as they see fit. 

[Ford Anglia]

[quote user="Framboise"]

No teacher has the "Right" to manhandle a child, especially not a six year old, [/quote]

OK, so let's take this to it's logical conclusion: WHO would you blame if YOUR child came home minus an eye because another child had poked him/her with a pencil/compass/sharpened stick, and the teacher had NOT physically intervened for fear of being accused of "manhandling"?

Yes, I know it's extreme, but I also know techers who have PHYSICALLY stopped pupils from hurting others. One was done by dragging the attacker to the ground as he attempted to brain another with a lab-stool, (the teacher in question was NOT big enough to RESTRAIN the 5th form boy), Is THAT OK?

[Athene]

'Respect is earned and authority is admired.'

Deby

That is what education is all about! It is a two way thing - children must respect their teachers and teachers must respect their children! Respect is earned and does not come with the job! And there are sadly teachers today who bully and scare children! I suspect Ron Avery would be one of these had  he the chance!

[Athene]

'And I've just seen a pig flying past! '

 

As a primary teacher of many years who still does supply in UK schools I speak with the authority!

[trumpet]

[quote user="Athene"]

'And I've just seen a pig flying past! '

 

As a primary teacher of many years who still does supply in UK schools I speak with the authority!

[/quote]

GULP[blink] It works for me.

I think we need some French input here. Two sides and all that.