General cost of living in France compaired to England ?

[Nigel Numbers]

This is my first post here so forgive me if it is not quite in the right place.

My wife and I have been giving serious thought to moving to France. We currently live about 20 west of Cambridge/England in a town called St.Neots.

We only have around £68,000 positive equity in our home.

We are not too sure which region we want to move to yet, but my wife is leaning towards Brittany, personally I would prefer a little further South to get some better weather, maybe Toulouse outskirts.

We have bought books on "Moving to France" and "Working in France" and some of the usual French magazines that are published and printed in British.

However I would like the input from people who used to live in England and moved to France recently (within last year) for their opinions on the cost of living compared to here in England.

My understanding from the various estate agents both on the web and the ones advertised in the magazines that we should have no problem whatsoever buying a place for £60,000 plus the usual £8,000 or so Notaire and tax fees? (obviously not in central Paris)

My wife has A-Level in French, personally, I can't speak a word, but from what I have heard, after a year in residence I should be fluent.

I would like to know how much things like: electric/water/phone/council tax etc bills cost compared to England, also how much food cost compared to England, Tesco is getting pricey these days?

Anybody have any idea what the crime rate is in Brittany and the Southern regions?

I heard that Diesel is much cheaper and running a car in general is, electricity is also supposed to be the cheapest in Europe?

Now the work bit: My wife is a professional piano teacher and I am an independent video producer/web site designer. How difficult will it be for my wife to set herself up as a private (teaching from home) piano teacher, or in school for that matter?

And how hard will it be for myself to find work with my video production and web site skills?

I know there are horror stories to be told, but we need positive encouragement at this stage so please try and keep the horror to a minimum.

Thanks in advance.

[Nick Trollope]

This is my first post here so forgive me if it is not quite in the right place.

Welcome, although you will stir a few gremlins with this as a first post!

My wife and I have been giving serious thought to moving to France. We currently live about 20 west of Cambridge/England in a town called St.Neots.

I used to drive through there every weekend on my way home from Uni, before they built the A14. That was a long time ago. Didn't have a nasty bend in the middle? (or is that Rushden).

We only have around £68,000 positive equity in our home.

Unless you have savings or an income from the UK that you can live off, then I doubt that this will be enough, I'm afraid. You won't buy much in the way of habitable property anywhere in France for 100,000E. Of course property is available at this price, but you WILL need additional money to refurb.

We are not too sure which region we want to move to yet, but my wife is leaning towards Brittany, personally I would prefer a little further South to get some better weather, maybe Toulouse outskirts.

Suggest you explore & decide. Noone can make your mind up for you. We chose Brittany simply because we knew it. Further south the weather is more extreme, which some (self included) don't find to their liking.

We have bought books on "Moving to France" and "Working in France" and some of the usual French magazines that are published and printed in British.

And most of them are rubbish or inaccurate. Spend your money on a hire car & a couple of Ryanair tickets - you will learn alot more!

However I would like the input from people who used to live in England and moved to France recently (within last year) for their opinions on the cost of living compared to here in England.

We moved here almost exactly a year ago. although we bought the house 18M before that. Cost of living is about the same as the UK (don't let others lie to you!!!). Taxes are higher (although not as high as some would have you believe); Food is (marginally) cheaper, but mainly because you can't get the range of pre-prepared food that you can in the UK, our food bill is about the same as it was in the UK; "Rates" are alot lower (about 1/3 of the UK cost in our case, for similar sized property, although the Tax Fonciers has gone up 28%!!!! this year); earnings are generally lower, unemployment is higher; Drink (except spirits) is cheaper! Diesel is cheaper, petrol is about the same, although the prices yo-yo here. Building materials are quite alot cheaper, although building labour is more expensive, due mainly to Fr taxes and the EU WTD.

My understanding from the various estate agents both on the web and the ones advertised in the magazines that we should have no problem whatsoever buying a place for £60,000 plus the usual £8,000 or so Notaire and tax fees? (obviously not in central Paris)

See above, but I doubt it! There are no properties in any of this week's dept 22 property papers for less than 100,000E

My wife has A-Level in French, personally, I can't speak a word, but from what I have heard, after a year in residence I should be fluent.

Not in my experience!

I would like to know how much things like: electric/water/phone/council tax etc bills cost compared to England, also how much food cost compared to England, Tesco is getting pricey these days?

See above, but also; electricity about the same price/marginally cheaper, although as they have a different charging system over here, the overall cost (inc standing charges) can be higher. Don't know about natural gas as we (like most of rural Fr does not have it). Tanked gas very expensive, oil is cheaper (and about thesame price as the UK).

Anybody have any idea what the crime rate is in Brittany and the Southern regions?

Around here, about nil (D22) - if you believe the local paper. Local yoof did knock over the Xmas tree across the road, though.

I heard that Diesel is much cheaper and running a car in general is, electricity is also supposed to be the cheapest in Europe?

Not really, diesel about 94c/litre (67p?), but distances tend to be further, as this is a larger country. I suspect that the electricity is amongst the average.

Now the work bit: My wife is a professional piano teacher and I am an independent video producer/web site designer. How difficult will it be for my wife to set herself up as a private (teaching from home) piano teacher, or in school for that matter?

You will need fluent French for any profession. I don't know about teaching music, our local school does not touch it AFAIAA. There are lots of struggling WS designers all over France! There are high-tech pockets (such as Rennes) and the only succesful WS designer I know works there (for naff-all money) & he is French.

And how hard will it be for myself to find work with my video production and web site skills?

Very IMHO, unless you can work back in the UK and set up here. This in itself is fraught with difficulty, because of the French "!self-employment" rules. That said, nothing is impossible, but I guarantee that you WILL NOT make anything like the amount you could make in the UK.

I know there are horror stories to be told, but we need positive encouragement at this stage so please try and keep the horror to a minimum.

I'm not going to lie to you. In my experience of the ex-pat community, only the retired or pre-retired, or those with an income from the UK find it easy (for the first year, at least). Others really struggle. Forget the building game, everyone has tried that - with varying levels of success - present company excepted, Val.

My honest advice is stay put (or look for the next property hot-spot - Slovenia?). Unless you really like a challenge. No way do we regret moving here, but we could not have survived without our UK income, despite having no mortgage & plenty of savings (which are almost all gone now, due to trying to rebuild 3 houses!).

Good luck & HNY!

 

[Teamedup]

I agree with just about all NT's comments really. There are some talented individuals who become fluent in a year, I'm not one of them and they are very very rare. But what is fluent, if you are to work here, being able to read/write it as well as speak it will be very important.

Electricity is as far as I can tell now, [as we are now paying some UK bills (son studying there)]seems to be more expensive here. Our rates do compare to the UK, but that depends where you live. Our water costs more than son's too. As we have started to go back more often this year, I have found that there are more bargains to be had in the UK than here. Well in the NE at least there are.

Apart from the conservatoires (not even sure of this), I have never heard of a professional piano teacher being taken on in any capacity by any school. Musicial associations employ piano teachers, I think here they charge around 20 euros an hour of which all the charges will have to be deducted. And ofcourse there are private lessons to be had, same thing, your wife would have to set up as some sort of self employed person.

And we have had friends from Holland looking for property on a similar budget. They have tried several regions and gave up. They said that they were shown wrecks for such prices and didn't want the hassle or expense of doing such places up, although you could fall lucky, you could have a few good holidays hunting if nothing else.

Crime, well, there is crime everywhere. There are drugs in all schools. There are drunk drivers.

 

[Maddie]

We moved here in March 2004 (Nr St Gaudens SW of Toulouse).  Forget Toulouse area unless you can buy out of commuting range of Airbus employees.  £68,00O is definitely not enough for a family home.  Renovation costs can skyrocket.  If you need to engage a builder/artisan plan at least 12 months in advance and double your budget.  Setting up a business of any sort is fraught with red tape.  If I had the choice I would have stayed in the UK but Mr M's job brought us here.  You might speak fluently in 12 months if you have an ear for the language and really make an effort.  Beware local dialect or you may ending speaking with the French equivalent of a Geordie accent (though I have nothing again Geordies, I hasten to add).  My Tourraine French is contantly being corrected by my neighbours.  Food seems cheaper, booze is cheaper, petrol is cheaper but only because we can hop over the border to Spain to buy ours, rates are definitely cheaper, vets bills are cheaper!

Think very carefully before you decide to move, wherever you go.  It's nothing like as easy and hassle free as you see on those blooming "No going back" type programs!

Good luck anyway!

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

£68,000 in todays money is less than 100,000euro,s,what do you want for your money?northern france is much cheaper and the south much more expensive,look on the net and you will see what you will get for your money.

[robinwolf]

When we were looking for our house we used the Orpi estate agent web site   www.orpi.com  Prices seem to have increased a lot since we purchased 2 years ago.

This is user friendly with prices and pictures for all French regions. This was of greater assistance to us than many agents who set up to "help" UK based purchasers.

Also of use is French Property News www.french-property-news.com  Their mag is worth a look and take in one of their exhibitions. However, beware as the estate agents gear themselves to selling property to the British that the French will not touch! often in the deeper parts of Normandy! 

Robin Wolf

[moon]

Wonderful post Nick

Such a change from the cantankerous moaners who would normally have met that first post with a long list of expletives deleted.

Have to say I agree with all you have said, except there are a lot of cheap properties around, though rarely do you see them in the mags.

Bob

[maude]

We agree after 2 years here in the Vendee with the previous comments.We bought this house in good condition,commpared to what we had been shown,especially by the anglified web based agents.However after selling up in the uk in the north,we had very little capital left over.Renovation is certainly not cheap as the time and distance sourcing materials add to the costs somewhat and delivery is also expensive.We also find the water charges higher than uk,and electricity due to their charging structure.Humidity can also be another drawback,which we never had east of the Pennines.A basic knowledge of French vocab from schooldays (long time ago) plus a little effort has enabled us to get everything we need including dealing with the French health system and re-registering of vehicles and a caravan - that took a whole year of dogged perseverance . We do find a whole different attitude is necessary as the wheels sometimes turn slower but efficiently, I say this but still get very frustrated at times.  We have friends who are taking quite intensive language lessons at a price but are still not fluent, having the skill to speak socially to the French bearing in mind the culturel differences and humour will take anyone a long time, but we have always been dealt with politely and with a great deal of patience generally speaking. Having just had our 3rd Christmas with no hassle and appalling traffic to spoil it I must say there are many compensations.  We are living on a modest pension and must conserve savings which have also been eroded for whatever may happen in the future.  Hope you make a success if you do it but would not advise anyone to do what we did and sell up first without coming over here and getting real - come in the winter, spend time, France closes down in  September, if your wife loves shopping  forget rural France, be near a city or she will be heading back to M & S .

Good luck-Maude 

[Alexis]

Have a look at www.immonot.com which is the site for the Notaires.  You will save money by buying through them directly and not using an agent.  You can look at your leisure in the different districts.

Here in Brittany the most popular musical instrument is the accordion......I know!  Just about everywhere has their own bagads so people learn an instrument they can march with.  I wouldn't have thought that the piano would be very popular.

The folk Celtic is cult. Even I love Denis Pigent.

[Val_2]

Well I am afraid £68K won't buy much in Brittany these days unless you find a real ruin and spend £60K getting it habitable. OK there are areas where property is cheaper but no one wants to live there because there is no work,no shop and no public transport and again isolation is not an answer to moving abroad especially if you wish to become good at speaking the language.Think of your old age too when you can no longer drive and there are no close neighbours to help you out. To find work or even set up on your own needs a good smattering of french to understand what accountants,clients and suppliers are saying to you as well as everyday needs. Crime is not so high but it's there and some of it is pretty nasty too with gun and knife killings all too common these days. Gone are the days when you could leave your doors and windows open here now,too many druggies from the towns coming out into the countryside to find holiday homes and rich pickings along with the travellers and refugees from eastern europe(they are well known locally in town here for stealing car wheels). Don't make the mistake of leaving the UK because you think living in France is cheaper, it certainly is not when you take into consideration that you have to pay for your pension if you work here as well as other charges and of course,your medical insurance and diesel may be cheaper but you will still have twice the distance to go to get your shopping. Do your homework carefully, weigh up the pros and cons and remember that wages are lower here and getting credit from banks is not very easy at all without a regular monthly income on paper.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Val2,that is how it is,not much more to add,apart from the subject has been done to death ie people want to come and live in france but don`t know which part to buy in and what does it cost to live in france,a quick search would tell all,at least they asked.

[Dave&Olive]

Hi   we have just bought in 79 deux-serves (see avatar if it`s working)

its a longere with attached barn&pig sty with a further 2 barns the house is livable I use this word loosely but it`s got a kitchen bedroom and bathroom that all work  and central heating we paid total €112000 that was with 9% estate agents fees and 7.5% notaire fees and do not believe you will get say €1.50 -£1 .

         There are still bargains to be had out there (wish we found one) if you look or are lucky to be out there at the right time ours ticked 8 out of ten boxes it was only on the market 2 days before we arrived in france so we put in the offer there and then, going to sign acte d`vente on the 14 jan .

 But we did view a lot of cheeper property that did not realy need a lot of work.

               Dave

[Patf]

You can still buy a small terraced village house (habitable) in our part of the Gers for 40-80000 euro. I think life would be cheaper in a village than out in the country. But as someone said this is an area with not much opportunity for work. Pat.

[Tresco]

 

Sums, that's what you really need to be good at. Realistic ones, down to the last bin bag, and you will not be fluent in french in a year, unless you are about 3 years old.

More books, more research, more, more, more, although I do think Nick Trollope did a very good job with boiling it down.

 

[Dave&Olive]

Must admit replies to this posting have been one of the best I`ve read on this site, and no one`s said what a waste of time you plonker yet!!      must be the new year resoulution thing

                 Any one for an argument

[Athene]

[quote]This is my first post here so forgive me if it is not quite in the right place.My wife and I have been giving serious thought to moving to France. We currently live about 20 west of Cambridge/England ...[/quote]

Yes I too agree with everything you say Nick! All I can add to this is a little about teaching in French schools. You will need to sit extensive exams and - yes they are in French - this is before you are allowed to apply for jobs. They will not take your UK qualifications into account! I know this as I thought I might like to do supply teaching here as I do in England  and a French teacher friend made the necessary enquiries.

If you are able to do it, the best thing is to have a leg in both camps so to speak! Both countries have a lot going for them! People who knock England and think the grass will be totally greener in France are not being realistic! 

As far as renovating houses are concerned, we use French materials mostly but we this trip we did bring out modern, vertical radiators that are hugely expensive here compared to dear old B and Q and pipe and freezing kit that was just not available.

Now something I find here in SW France is that yes meat is cheaper but it really is tough and even defies the long, slow cooking techniques! I wonder do they not hang it long enough? Do they put additives to tenderise it in England? I would welcome any comments on this from others.

Good luck with your quest but do your own research that is the best advice!

Athene

[Val_2]

I don't think anyone wants to argue about this thread,which has been done to death so many times before, but everyone who has replied has done so from their own experiences of buying,living and working in France and to me they all seem pretty similar. I still think people watch those awful programmes and think that's it,we must make a move to France where we can sit in the sun and drink wine all day long but little do they realise what is lurking under the surface when reality finally sets in and there is no longer anyone to help them through it or a friendly local bank manager to give them yet more money when their savings have dwindled away and there is no work to be found. The only people who can make the decision to move here are the posters themselves but not because of a whim or fashion but because they realise and understand it is a completely different way of life and they cannot change that however hard they try to and if you are anti-French from the start then it will never work anyway. Going back to the cost of living here, everything is going up weekly by the amount I seem to be parting with these days and we have already increased the commune's taxes and other charges for the end of this year again. One of our insurances for work has increased by over 10% since July04 and that is with no claims whatsoever to put it up and the mutuelle monthly charges are also steadily rising,again not through excessive claims either.All these details need to be thought about carefully.

[Moulin]

As has been said, it’s nice to see a topic receiving solid replies.

 

Another thing to take into account is what happens if you decide to sell up and move back to the UK.

My wife and I are halfway through a renovation and looking to sell, as it’s only 2/3 finished the place has been valued at slightly less than we’ve actually spent on it to date and the agent also pointed out that ‘unfinished projects’ are a very limited market and it could take forever to sell!   

[Mysfloss]

I agree with the other posters and add this, when you move abroad you cut away your support systems ,those that have been built up over many years (brickie you knew at school etc.)It takes time to rebuild these contacts and an effort on your part that will seem extraordinary at times.Every thing you need is here but you won't find it overnight.Good luck with your decision

[Athene]

[quote]As has been said, it’s nice to see a topic receiving solid replies. Another thing to take into account is[/quote]

Non desperandum or something! A buyer will come forward.We bought our house when it was a quarter-way through the renovation process. It gave us a livable space whilst we continued to convert the rest. But sadly for you, yes , the guy lost out on it as he was converting it for his own use (and not cutting corners) not for re-sale and a divorce forced his hand with the sale.

Anyway good luck and I hope all goes well for you.

[Alexis]

I am not disagreeing with Albi, but an awful lot of people - with families - have to live on SMIC.  This is about £700 per month before tax.  I know benefits are available but I don't imagine folk become rich on them.

Houses here - Brittany - in the middle of nowhere are cheaper than most places but there is no work.  The factories all seem to be reducing staff and there isn't much else.  I'm glad I don't have to work now.

A strange idea but if you do decide on Brittany, you might find it cheaper to buy a plot of land and do a new build.  You can buy land not far from me for 1€ m².  A new build, guaranteed for 10 years etc can be chosen from one of the construction companies plans and they do it all. 

Someone else is bound to know more than me but I do know the name of several construction companies as I looked them up for 'A Friend!'   Let me know and I will post them to you.

[Cerise]

Don't want to discourage you as everyone should have a go at their dream, but do think you should have some savings to live on for at least a year.  Unless you want to greatly reduce your standard of living you will need at least 1500 euros a month (without mortgage).  Many of my French friends do live on less than that, I know, but they never go anywhere or have any luxuries at all.  I am not saying that you can't live cheaply, but do you really want to move to another country only to scrimp and save all the time.  Everyone is different, but personally I was not prepared to live in a house without decent heating and facilities and worry all the time about where the next meal is coming from.

We too have just spent our 3rd Xmas here and we do not have a pension, a home in UK or any other source of income - unlike the majority of our English acquaintances.  We are just about managing to earn a living running our B & B but it is hard work and we will never be well off.  We managed to buy a house quite cheaply but spent more than the same again doing it up - and we did most of the work ourselves.  If we had had to employ others to do it, we could not have afforded it.

I think, realistically, your main problem will be work.  I speak fluent French but do not have qualifications that the French can relate to (the system is very different) and have also been told that at 50 I am frankly too old - that hurt I can tell you.  Unless you have lots of translatable 'diplomes' it is difficult.  My husband has worked very hard at learning French - 5 hours a week of college - but although he can get by he is by no means fluent (certainly couldn't read a novel for example) and I do not know anyone who is, after only a year.  We live north of Toulouse and in the countryside there are not a great number of people who can afford private music lessons - however, if your wife based herself near the city where there are large numbers of English people and an International school, she might find pupils.  Worth asking at the Chambre de Commerce/Metiers as they may know of opportunities.

All that said, I wish you luck if it is what you really want to do do.  When we moved here people thought we were mad as the majority of English people here are well-off and retired.    We love our life - even on the much reduced income - and are glad we made the move although only time will tell if we can afford to remain.

Bonne Chance

Maggi

 

 

[Alexis]

Have a look at www.ida-immobilier.com  She is based at the top end of Morbihan near Dept 22.  You can see what is on offer around here.  Some of the vendors must be having a laugh!

Of course, YOU will go directly to the Notaire, thus avoiding paying agency fees......

[Coco]

I'll start by quoting Val:

"The only people who can make the decision to move here are the posters themselves but not because of a whim or fashion but because they realise and understand it is a completely different way of life and they cannot change that however hard they try to and if you are anti-French from the start then it will never work anyway"

If you are coming for the right reasons you're halfway there.  Too many people know nothing about France, it's culture, way of life or history and come purely because those STUPID programmes persuade them that they will find a house for tuppence ha'penny and will set up a successful gite business overnight.

We had wanted to live in France for 20 years before we came here permanently two years ago.  We did live very close to London so to us everything is still cheaper, sometimes only marginally, sometimes HUGELY.  For example, in the UK we paid £960 a year council tax for a terraced cottage.  Here we have a three bedroom/3 bathroom farmhouse with outbuildings and pay 220€ for tax d'habitation AND foncieres!

Only yesterday we sat down and worked out our costs and targets for our B&B over the next year, based on last year.  There are two of us, in our 40's, running one car, no mortgage and we believe that last year it cost us aout 1400€ per month to live.  That includes all taxes (except income tax), mutuelle, utilities, TV licence, diesel, car maintenance, food, wine, beer, wood, insurances and 100€ per month for miscellaneous costs.  What it didn't take into account was clothes, birthdays, holidays, eating out.  However, we do eat and drink VERY well and I'm sure we could easily knock 200€ per month off that bill by more frugal living - but what the hell!

My husband's brother and sister in law came out for New Year and came to the conclusion that we have not taken "early retirement" as most of our friends in the UK seem to think, but in fact have a much harder physical life than we had before.  I have to agree with her (on the day of their arrival my husband had spent the whole day splitting logs down that were too big for the wood-burner) but it is still SO, so much better than spending 4-5 hours a day in traffic jams to make a round trip of only 60 miles!!

As for going from nil French to fluency in a year.  Whoever said that this is only possible if you are 3 years old is correct.  Unless of course, you move in with a non-English speaking French family and have no contact with any other English speaking person!!!  It also depends on what you regard as fluent.  My French neighbours all say that I am.  However, as soon as they start joking with each other and speaking colloquially I am totally lost, so NO, I am nowhere near fluent, and I too had A level French when I arrrived.

And beware, as another poster said, about picking up the local accent.  I have started to get a Norman accent, which one of my Parisian neighbours is now trying to knock out of me!  Back to square one again!

It's not easy living in France, but it's heaps better than living in SE England.  If you really want to live in France - Persevere, despite the many hurdles, in is worth it.

[Lavie]

No doubt people will disagree with me, BUT from what i've seen, general food shopping prices in large multi chain shops (LeClerc, Carrefour, Super U etc) are much the same as the UK but in Euros. ie. a £4 chicken would cost around 4 euros, so you are saving around a third on UK prices. This is assuming you buy french brands and not British imports, of course.

Of course, everyone's shopping habits vary, but on that basis, i'm afraid i have to disagree when some others say shopping is almost the same price as the UK.

And while diesel in France is at a high.....it's still a lot less than the 85p a litre UK price!!