the ethics of owning a second home in France

letrangere · March 20, 2005

"Sorry if no one has mentioned it but the reason that people leave their regions is no blxxdy work rather than nowhere to live. And the ghost villages are there because people have had to leave."

TU, I've mentioned this so many times before on the Forum that I didn't this time for fear of being accused of sounding too much like a broken record.

"On the occasions I have spoken to Bretons about this they have assured me they prefer the houses to be renovated and inhabited some of the time (which in many cases they were not before)and of course those that are rented out also bring extra income to the area."

Gay, I know a dear old codger in the Lot who has lived in the same house all 76 years of his life. After pointing out that he now lives in a British colony he will say exactly what you state above. Though he'd add that he likes to chat and it's a shame more Brits don't speak at least some French.

M

Weedon · March 20, 2005

Whether or not it is obscene or selfish to own a second home anywhere depends upon the motives for doing so.

If it is purely because you have sufficient spare spondooleys to do so, fits nicely along with the personal number plate on your Chelsea tractor, you keep harping on about how you bought at the right time and keep puffing yourself up saying "look at how much the value has risen", then IMHO your motives are questionable.

weedon

Eskenazi · March 20, 2005

Hey 'Teamed Up' - what about that 35 hour French working

week? Everyone we know in France works no more than that,

plus they have 2 hour lunches, unlike my husband who has

to sit & push buttons with one hand & eat a pizza with the

other!

Sorry the remark about benefits didn't seem 'nice' - but

some of us just get fed up to the back teeth with paying

£40,000 tax a year and getting nothing for it, whilst others

who earn far less seem able to claim every benefit under the

sun & do quite nicely.

Clarkkent · March 20, 2005

Hey 'Teamed Up' - what about that 35 hour French working
week? Everyone we know in France works no more than that,
plus they have 2 hour lunches, unlike my husband who has
to sit & push buttons with one hand & eat a pizza with the
other!

Sorry the remark about benefits didn't seem 'nice' - but
some of us just get fed up to the back teeth with paying
£40,000 tax a year and getting nothing for it, whilst others
who earn far less seem able to claim every benefit under the
sun & do quite nicely.

Oh dear! Feeling hard done by? A very rough calculation leads me to think that your husband must be earning well over £100,000 in order to be paying that much tax. And just for pushing buttons! Hardly bread line, is it? No doubt he could work much more civilised hours and still have an income well above the mean. He could certainly afford not to eat junk food. This is the politics of envy in reverse! He (and you) have chosen that mode of life. You shouldn't resent people who don't share it.

Both my wife and I worked those kind of hours as teachers. We earned NOTHING like your highly paid husband and we didn't look down our noses at people less well off than ourselves. I'm sure the genuine stress of her work was one of the reasons my wife became ill. And yes, for the last two years of her not very long life she was in receipt of Invalidity Benefit. I'm sure you'll think it was wasted on her. In a civilised and cultured society it is the privilege of the well off to help those less fortunate.

What TU says is correct.

Russethouse · March 20, 2005

>>Hey 'Teamed Up' - what about that 35 hour French working

week? Everyone we know in France works no more than that<<

Everyone you know might - but that is not the case for many self employed, people in family businesses or as TU says, caterers. A 35 hours week is just a dream. What do you think farmers do ? - cows don't milk themselves because the farmer is on a 35hour week !!(your friends aren't 'functionaires' by any chance ? Or bank employees ?

)

We all moan about tax - but you've got to earn it to pay it !

Please don't make the same mistake that people who lump all British second home owners together do, yes, there are people who know how to make the best of the system, but their are many who really need those benefits to get by through little fault of their own.

Teamedup · March 20, 2005

FACT, not all people work 35 hour weeks in France.

SaligoBay · March 20, 2005

paying £40,000 tax a year

This is a typo, right?

This is vastly more than most French people's entire pre-tax wages!!!

And sadly people are right about the 35-hour week. Many cadres also have the "choice" to opt out of it, when in fact the real choice is opt out or get out.

But an interesting point, nonetheless, although not very French. Solidarity and all that.

March 20, 2005

Hello,

My question is not about the ethics of owning a property in France but rather where. I want a region within striking distance of the slopes and the beaches. Can you Guys give me a steer?

Jack

Tresco · March 20, 2005

Oh you poor suffering person, with your three year old car, haw absolutely awful for you.

(not you Jollytacktar, your question is just in the wrong place on the forum).

I really hope your relationship stays the same. I really hope you and your husband don't split up, and that neither of you ever ever have to apply for incapacity benefit. I hope neither of you falls seriously ill.

I knew plenty of people in England, through my job, who relied on one or other of the benefits you mention, but no one here, not that that is relevant, at all.

If someone is entitled to a benefit, I think they can spend it on whatever they want, if that means living, or having a second home in France; so be it.

You clearly think differently, or am I imagining things?

By the way, in my experience, 5 weeks holiday is a lot for a young man.

EDIT/ are you seriously saying you get NOTHING for the tax you pay?

tresco

March 21, 2005

Hello Eskenazi

You said

Hey 'Teamed Up' - what about that 35 hour French working

week? Everyone we know in France works no more than that,

plus they have 2 hour lunches, unlike my husband who has

to sit & push buttons with one hand & eat a pizza with the

other!

You obviously don't know many French people. If you read the Mail less, and got to talk to your artisans, restaurateurs and neighbours more, you might think twice before writing such nonsense. Those who take two hour lunches tend to start work at 7.30 or 8. and finish at 7.30 or 8, by the way.

Oh yes, and my wife has a hereditary disorder which has resulted in her going progressively deaf. The strain of trying to teach french in an inner city school (1989) while increasingly hard of hearing nearly led her into a nervous breakdown. She was finally deemed "unfit to teach". She is in receipt of incapacity benefit. She was head of year with >20 year's seniority and led a team of 10. Her TOTAL pre-tax income last year, (Teacher's pension plus invalidity benefit) was less than 1/4 of the tax you say your husband pays for pushing buttons. This year, because she turned 60, she nets about 10% LESS. Forgive me if I don't sympathise with your point of view, finding it bigoted, ignorant, uncaring and selfish. However, I'm sure you're both utterly charming and very kind to your cats, dogs and friends. Nevertheless I'll stick to our friend, Serge, the local menuisier who works 80 hours a week, yet finds time for charity work, will drop everything to repair a roof for an old lady, and probably "forget" to charge her.

March 21, 2005

Just to add my two pennies (or should that be two €) worth - I have no problem owning a second property in France for most of the same reasons stated above.

Our place was built and lived in by a Dutchman, left empty for a long while before being sold to a German who lived there for a year or so before moving due to work commitments, he left the place empty for a couple of years before we bought it - during all of the empty times the property was on the books of the local Immobilières and available to any takers, the price was not extortionate but as stated previously in one of the other posts, it's 4km out of town and none of the French buyers wanted it for that reason.

We on the other hand are OK with being 4km out so managed to buy a v nice house on a great plot at a good price.

Even if we had gone for a property in town, I still would be happy with my purchase (if not a little more skint!) as it’s a free market that the French are just as much a part of as the English – all nations have veto and opt-out for anything that may affect their national balance or profitability, as yet the French have not mentioned using ether to slow the foreign investment of overseas buyers purchasing in France.

We are the only foreigners in our little village of about half a dozen houses, no one we have spoken to cares that we are English...

The locals we have spoken too are happy that the house will be cared for (by a local French family company) and that we will use local shops and amenities, we do try to speak French and do try to integrate - this last point appears to be the main source of complaint amongst the locals we have spoken too - they dislike the English (Dutch/Germans etc) who only speak to the English (Dutch/Germans etc) and ignore the locals, this unfortunately does happen in our area as I have witnessed to my embarrassment. people (old and young) muttering phrases like "they should all learn bl00dy English" does nothing to keep the peace.

Can you imagine the reception a French family would have buying a house in Brighton and refusing to try to speak English ?! Fortunately most of the French are far more polite !

Also, the French we have got to know do on the whole work hard - may be they are not as manic as the English and Americans but who can blame them, given the chance I would slow a little (I think that was one of the reasons we bought in France in the first place !)

As for air travel being the source of pollution, a modern jet carrying upward of 200 people Has to be better then 200 people in cars and coaches chugging down the AutoRoute and back routes + if they didn't go to their Maison Secondaire, they would just go somewhere else anyway.. mile for mile I think you would find jets to be fairly good as transportation goes (without getting in to the expanding Airport argument)

Anyway, I've finished my tea so I’ll be quite now and go do some work

Paul

Teamedup · March 21, 2005

Not the airport argument, just the aeroplane argument.

As I do believe that air travel is guilty of a huge amount of population. I would imagine that four coaches had far less pollution. Even 200 cars, although I doubt that 200 people would use two hundred cars.

http://www.scientific-alliance.org/news_archives/transport/makepassengerspay.htm

March 21, 2005

Hi TU,

This is sheer naughtiness, but I simply couldn't resist it. You said:-

As I do believe that air travel is guilty of a huge amount of population. I would imagine that four coaches had far less pollution. Even 200 cars, although I doubt that 200 people would use two hundred cars.

I've heard of the mile high club but that's a wholly new slant. Teehee.

Teamedup · March 21, 2005

That is not so bad, I did a really bad gaffe earlier on and just caught it before I posted.

Shall I say pollution then.

I'm not convinced the mile high club really exists, well other than in private planes, although someone might be happy enough to contradict me.

Dick Smith · March 21, 2005

"Air travel is the world's fastest growing source of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide, which cause climate change. Globally the world's 16,000 commercial jet aircraft generate more than 600 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2), the world's major greenhouse gas, per year. Indeed aviation generates nearly as much CO2 annually as that from all human activities in Africa. One person flying a return trip between London and New York generates between 1.5 and 2 tonnes of CO2."

from

http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/briefings/climate/climatebriefing.htm

March 21, 2005

So someone pulls in 100k(each year)what they do with it is up to them,second home in france or what ever.Just like every other second home owner they have to put up with the thinking now going around,me I do not care that much as I do not have a second home.

March 21, 2005

There seem to several issues here, but after reading the pages it seems to boil down to greed and envy, from both the french and english.

If you have a house to sell you want the best possible price, and the same for the buyer...so who wins?

As long as both parties are happy, then thats great. I earn very little as self employed within the arts...for 25 years now, and am happy with the long hours sometimes over 70 hours a week and no overtime as i consider job satisfaction most important, as long as I have enough to pay the bills.

I bought a house in the Charente 2 years ago which had been owned by a french couple which had stood empty for 15 years.This cost me the princely sum of 8 thousand pounds...now yes it needs a lot of work, but you cant tell me I outpriced the locals.

We now visit 6 times a year and use local shops and bars...even have a loyalty card for the village hairdresser.

On the last visit had a very interesting chat to our neighbour as an english family were moving in next door to her...ah les Anglais she said..at which point i fell about laughing..and she said no you are not les Anglais...you speak french.

Well I do try but its a difficult language but if you make the effort no matter how badly..and boy mine is... people will respect you and help you out.

I have seen so many english people who expect it to be like Clacton, dont make an effort and are rude and thats what upsets people in the village...and can you blame them.

March 21, 2005

One person produces around 1.5 tons of CO2 aller retour to new york?would the plane only hold that 1 person,say it held 100 people would that still be the total per person

Someone posted that teachers work over 75 hours a weekwhat do they do and how many hours are they paid for each week/mouth.That being the case how many of them have second homes in france,like the lady posted most people are lucky to get 4/5 weeks a year hols.

jaylottJohn · March 22, 2005

I find it amazing the lengths people seem to go to try to justify their "Green Eyes".

If you spent more time working instead of bitching about how otheres choose to spend their hard earned, then maybe you could join all of us who have made the decision to have a second home, whatever our reasons and financial circumstances may be.

Yes I do have a second home, and no I can't really afford it, BUT that is MY choice.

JohnM · March 22, 2005

When I was considering what to do with my ill gotten gains (I can't say it was "hard earned money" as most of it was "call out payments" and the amount of work was usually minuscule - dragging myself out of bed was the hardest bit), I deliberated between a big house in an English village or a Holiday Home somewhere. Although it's not used every week, I think we (family & friends) actually put as much into the village economy as the little old lady who lived there before. But hey, I do have a twinge of guilt about whether it's ethical, may be when I can sort out the some work where I can spend three months in each country I'll feel better.

March 22, 2005

[quote]I find it amazing the lengths people seem to go to try to justify their "Green Eyes". If you spent more time working instead of bitching about how otheres choose to spend their hard earned, then mayb...[/quote]

Hi John,

Hang on a mo!! No one - at least certainly not me - was criticising anyone for owning a second home in France, Outer Mongolia or the Isle of Wight if that's what they want. I'm not criticing anyone who gets >100k a year for pushing buttons. All I'm saying is that someone whose husband gets that kind of money should be thoroughly grateful that they can support 8 disabled teachers through their taxes, and not ASSUME that all disabled people are milking the system.

I also wasn't that happy about the assumption (to be found most commonly in the popularist tabloids such as the mail and the Sun - and sucked up enthusiastically by bigotted morons) that the French are lazy slobs who all work 35 hour weeks and take 2 hour lunchbreaks.

In fact MY reading of the entire thread didn't give me any impression of jealousy for those who are better off. Perhaps I'd better re-read it. It seems that my comprehension of written English is clearly lacking. (Perhaps if teachers had been better paid when I was at school, I'd be more perspicacious now).

Piprob · March 22, 2005

Like Ian H and Outcast, I have been wondering what the ethical issue was.

The money we paid for our french home went to the artisans who built it for us. And the house is in Quillan - an area that suffers very high unemployment.

It may seem a little churlish to admit it, but if I hear anyone complain about our arrival, I shall probably suggest to them they go away qietly and boil their heads.

Tourangelle · March 22, 2005

Ian, I totally agree with you.

Anybody who thinks French people really work a 35 hour week clearly knows very few French people. These people (person?) making these wild assumption, 2 hour lunch and so on, can you speak French? Have you ever spoken to a French person who has ordinary office job? I would guess not.

Well, it is pretty much the same working environment as in the UK. I know, I've done both. The only time I ever had a two hour lunch here was when I had no break at all because I had to lunch with clients. Zoom past to your second home, by all means, I have nothing against that. But don't make ridiculous assumptions

Patmobile · March 22, 2005

I would just like to make 2 observations

1. Yes you can qualify for the mile high club on a commercial flight

2. I haven't noticed a lot of Londoners moaning that I'm driving up the cost of housing there by having a third home over there in Docklands

Patrick

amp · March 22, 2005

[quote]When I was considering what to do with my ill gotten gains (I can't say it was "hard earned money" as most of it was "call out payments" and the amount of work was usually minuscule - dragging myself ...[/quote]

John

Thats twice I agree with your logic in one day!!!

Paul

the ethics of owning a second home in France

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