the ethics of owning a second home in France

[Janb]

Are second homes a selfish luxury or a harmless retreat?

from the Green Guide

More than a million Britons now own a second home. Many argue that these out-of-towners bring economic benefits to rural communities. Equally, though, second homes can price local people, including key workers, out of the housing market.

And the second-home phenomenon is spreading its wings. British buyers now snap up thousands of foreign homes every year. Their dream of a place in the sun is increasingly realised by the expanding reach of low-cost airlines. By 2012, it is estimated that second homers will take 12 million flights a year to visit their properties, exacerbating the environmental impact of air travel.

In 2003, 40% of all property sold in Spain went to non-nationals, while young Spaniards, unable to get on the property ladder, remain living with their parents in unprecedented numbers. By 2003, homes in the French region of Languedoc Roussillon cost 28% more than the year before, largely due to demand for second homes.

The danger is that by living between two communities, second-homers contribute fully to neither and can actually adversely affect the local community where the second home is located. Renting a locally owned property, or staying at a locally owned hotel, would be a better option.

[Esperaza]

The French village where I have my house has dozens of older properties that have been empty for years. The two on either side of mine were empty when I purchased mine (2000) and do not need a total renovation, just a good clean and a lick of paint. Situation is that the young French couples seem to want "new builds" or apartments rather than older stone properties. I really wish that some-one would live in the ones neighbouring mine as them being heated would probably lower my heating bills!

[Iceni]

Ownership of a second home is obscene !! But my view might change if I had one.

John

not

[Dick Smith]

Mine did...

[Tresco]

I've been a second home owner in the past, in Northern France. Nothing but botheration, couldn't ever justify going anywhere else, (until I put my foot down, finally), spent every holiday working, came home exhausted. That said it was a lovely place, but never again.

About the air pollution. All these second home owners would almost certainly be flying to other destinations if they did not have their holiday home, so is it reasonable to add this in as a factor?.

tresco

 

[letrangere]

I've been a second home owner in the past, in Northern France. Nothing but botheration, couldn't ever justify going anywhere else, (until I put my foot down, finally), spent every holiday working, came home exhausted.

Tresco, I'm glad you posted this for I said exactly the same thing a couple of weeks back on a different thread.  If you have a fully restored, beautiful house in a place with masses to see and you've seen the world and decided there's really nowhere else on earth you'd rather be than your particular corner of France every day of your limited, precious vacation time then it's fine.  Ditto if you're either a glutton for punishment or an avid DIYer.  But if this isn't the case?  Well...  M

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Apart from the fact that it may be obscene to own a second home as some of the french now seen to think,the social destruction that they bring with them is now becoming more apparent.To say the french do not want then is a cop out,even if they did they are out of reach price wise  down to the second owner mainly or the few people that buy a house and live in it as the home in france.

[Clarkkent]

I have owned my second home for eleven years. When I bought it, it had been empty for two years. I bought it for a price which was easily accessible to a potential French purchaser at the time. However, it is situated in a small village several miles from the nearest town and French purchasers appeared to prefer to live in towns near shops and other services.

When I asked an elderly resident of the village whether she minded English people buying houses she replied that she was pleased because they were keeping her village alive.

France has a long history of city dwellers having maisons secondaires. I do not see where any ethical question exists.

[GRT17]

"I have owned my second home for eleven years. When I bought it, it had been empty for two years. I bought it for a price which was easily accessible to a potential French purchaser at the time"

Clarke Kent

Our situation is similar to yours although we bought our house more recently, in 2000. Our village house had also been standing empty for several years and before that it had been let out to undesirable families. So we have been welcomed locally and very much accepted. The mayor has told me that he welcomes the English who in his opinion are a lot less trouble than some of the French who come from other parts of the region and are buying and moving into the new houses that are being built.

Our hard earned cash has been spent on employing (excellent) local artisans and we and our guests shop in the village shop, unlike a lot of locals.

Gill

[vrooje<BR>Cheers,<br>-Brooke<BR><br><B><A TARGET=blank HREF="http:www.experienceburgundy.com">http:www.experienceburgundy.com<A><B>]

The French owners we purchased our house from used it as a maison secondaire, and we paid a reasonable price for the area. We try whenever possible to frequent local shops instead of big chains, and to hire local workers to do repairs, gardening, etc., when we are away from the property.

I think this article/quote is a bit alarmist. The environmental damage caused by air travel? I'm not completely informed on the topic, but I'd think there are many things causing worse damage than air travel...

[letrangere]

"Apart from the fact that it may be obscene to own a second home as some of the french now seen to think,the social destruction that they bring with them is now becoming more apparent.To say the french do not want then is a cop out,even if they did they are out of reach price wise  down to the second owner mainly or the few people that buy a house and live in it as the home in france"

Outcast, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say but I am curious.  Is it just "the French" who think it is obscene to own a second home?  I would put forward the suggestion that as a nation, more French than British own maisons de vacances and it's a more widely accepted practice.  For spending most weekends and all of August in the country is long established, not merely amongst Parisiens but the middle classes in other large French cities.  When in Paris, I remember us being the only people in our circle of French friends who didn't go to our house in Normandy every Friday afternoon.

Also, I see where people are coming from but I'm not totally convinced about this "social destruction".  Sure, we all know plenty of ghost villages in France.  I have friends in the Lot who who are one of only 5 full time residents in a village of perhaps 30+ houses.  And their hundreds more examples.  But we have to remind ourselves why there were so many abandoned old houses in the French countryside to buy up and restore in the first place.  It was due to the post-war demographic shift that saw vast numbers of French people leaving the country for a better life in the city.  So the seasonal ghost villages of today were, until a decade ago, perhaps a bit later, year round graveyards. 

And now that so many people retire permanently to these areas, or, even more importantly, young foreign families move in, these villages are getting a new lease of life.  I was reflecting only recently that many villages in the Dordogne appear livelier today in mid-winter than I even remember them being in mid-summer back in the 1970s. 

Margaret

[timc17]

I live near the North Norfolk coast where so many homes have been bought by wealthy 'City' types that one of the villages is now known as Chelsea-On -Sea.Here the local council have reduced the usual 50 per cent council tax reduction (for second homes) to 10 per cent in an effort to stem the tide of holiday-homers.The existing local population cannot afford to buy in the area and are moving away which will eventually lead to the villages being deserted during the week and springing to life at weekends.

Being a hypocrite i also have a second home in the Charente Maritime which i hope to move to full-time this summer.The only difference being the house i bought was in need of total renovation , had sat empty for over a year and had been offered to the rest of the commune by the mairie without any takers.By moving there with our four school age children we are keeping the village going as 75 percent of the inhabitants are retired.Out of the forty houses in the commune at least five still remain unoccupied and in a state of decay.

As i understand it aircraft pollution is far worse than cars or vans and as someone who currently lives under the flightpath of the local airport i'm glad i don't live near Heathrow or Gatwick.

tim

i'm not here in france(yet!!)

[SaligoBay]

Don't see the fuss myself, it's hardly new news.    What was the house-burning in Wales about all those years ago, if not second-home ownership?

I don't see the (many) French people with maisons secondaires beating themselves up about it.  Do the Dutch do all this soul-searching about the ethics of bringing lorry-loads of Dutch goods in to their French maisons secondaires?   Do North Africans who live half-time there and half-time here lose sleep over the moral issues of it?

It's just life in our currently affluent society.  

The French who sell tumbledown wrecks at huge prices to foreigners, I wonder what they do with the money?    Bet they use it buy a nice shiny new maison secondaire somewhere else, one that they don't have to spend the next 10 years of their life doing up!

 

[moon]

Quote: The French who sell tumbledown wrecks at huge prices to foreigners, I wonder what they do with the money? Bet they use it buy a nice shiny new maison secondaire somewhere else, one that they don't have to spend the next 10 years of their life doing up!

If my experiences are anything to go by they are buying second homes in Florida. In the Bradenton/Saratosa area there are quite a large number of french owners.

bob

[Renaud]

It is the ethics of the marketplace that really trouble the person who started this topic. If everybody agreed not to purchase a second home and all those who had one sold up, then the purchase price of these properties would colapse. Local people would be able to buy property cheaply but as mentioned above, would there be much for them to do in Frances rural areas?

The fact is many of the houses bought by Brits as second homes are not wanted by the French, locals or not.

As with other posters on this thread, we bought a house in the Charente Maritime that had stood empty for a over a year and are paying local craftsmen to renovate it. The purchase price was not out of the reach of locals, my guess is that it was about to twice the annual salary of a teacher.

Cheap Ryanair travel to France is possible because local French chambers of commerce are prepared to subsidise the flights. At a guess this is because the local rural economies want the influx of money from second home owners and holidaymakers.

If second homes are wrong then how about all the flats and chalets in the skiing resorts.

[Sprogster]

What is of interest in this regard, was the substantive reduction of the French capital gains tax rate on second homes to just 16%,which was introduced last year.

The French governments policy of almost halving this rate of this tax can only be interpreted as  intentional policy of encouraging second home ownership.

With no tax at all on gains made from the sale of a second home after 15 years of ownership, France I believe now has the lowest tax in this regard of any country in the EU.

[Paulhogan]

I live in ethics and have a second home, do I qualify?

It's a fact of life more people than ever own second homes all over the world. Our's was habitable, had been empty for over 2 years, not expensive after negotiating via the immobilier and securing a deal at 60% of the asking price. The immobilier was extremely realistic as to property values, helped I'm sure by being a local who had lived in the area all his life.

In the two years we were looking our experience of immobiliers suggested an attitude akin to let's fleece the foreigner, suggesting vastly inflated prices to owners who were only too glad to see the potential gold mine in the semi derelict property. 

I do not see the difference between an english owner who tries to "integrate", and I'm not sure what that really means, and say a french owner . We have a house in a small hamlet of 12 houses, at least 5 are second homes, 4 are owned by french families and are visited for only 3 or 4 weeks in the summer. We at least visit every 4 to 6 weeks throughout the year.

You will always find somebody willing to make negative comments about any group of people, you should hear the comments in essex about house prices and how the young will ever afford a house, guess who gets the blame, Londoners of course pushing up prices.

I stand by the philosophy of live and let live, life is too short.

 

[Plato comes homePlato]

I have tried to hammer this subject out over the years. There are so many variables that become escape toutes. By the way I consider pollution from aircraft to probably be one of th worst and best hidden..both in chemicals and in heat...as is airconditoning elsewhere in the latter matter.

It seems to me that "live and let live' is simply the Gordon gecko smugness applied. Whether one owns one house or five the impact on france and its culture is enormous now. Why turn France into a sort of mystical britain? Are we not there to learn?

Millions more feet tramping monuments is destroying what IS for future peoples...should this evoke a response of self discipline and deprivation?..I think so..

There is no doubt that the exteriors of so many pommie places in france are colourful and pretty...somehing I have spoken with mairies about for years..COLOUR!! and Mairie assistance to its villagers to make villages less drab..yet in a way I am doing what I accuse others of dong...changing France for my pleasure!!

The stories of the Dutch importing everything are largely French inspired gossip which has grown. The Dtch are finnicky but as well... a lot of Dutch furniture has been sold via brocantes in France...lovely stuff...so often

Getting back...if you have a conscience you will not be denying the French people or their young their ownership....you will discuss needs with the mairies..including their assistanes with low cost rental renovations..For me this concept of "we have the money..lets exploit" is low class ehtics...low class morality. So you bring wealth..no one can deny that now after ten years..the changes in quincailleries are obvious...but you also bring inflation..and THAT is what directly impacts on the ordinary french family and their old people. You have been directly responsible for the young being displaced BUT I say to the mairies.."Its gone too far now, hating the changes is wasted effort...the Governments have permitted the changes for greed....because WHY would France need Pommies???....or Aussies either...so you MUST change your culture too, to a house BUYING culture...provide benefits to young people to help them buy houses and DENY them to migrants..favour your own..but then begin to provide low cost housing for young French people to buy..and I give examples...

Of course most French are NOT rich, basically survivors. British inflation has condemned France and Spain to exploitation and greed by egotistical foreigners...the bulk of whom are British...so France should blunt the british sword and sharpen its own...if not hatred will cement itself...Sure older people can rationalise the impact of English takeovers but villages are over brited to the stage of obscenity as is Dordogne region...is there a simple answer....Hmm well not unless Government action includes limiting the exploitation..BUT it can come from the heart of the brit (or others) in making that second house one which serves some French family well in its modern facilities in a French style...cheap rentals..all that..and later perhaps use the rent to buy a holiday home. In other words..use your heart to give back some of what the French culture has permitted you to snare.....Leveraging property in exploitable poor countries is about as low as exploitation  minded human vermin or the Gecko "live and let live perversion" can creep. Try to do good..and find how..maybe this could be a valuable occupation for you (us) all...

Cheers

 

[Will]

Plato, as you will know from the e-mail sent to you, you were banned from the forum yesterday morning so I don't know why the software allowed you to make the above posting.

Rather ironic, isn't it. It is a pity that your other contributions, which drew so many complaints from other members, were not as relatively intelligent and restrained as the above.

I would think, however, that your comments could apply to anywhere, not just France - Spain and Portugal particularly spring to mind. France does, I am told, have quite a high proportion of second homes, but the majority are French-owned, mainly by city-dwellers who want a place by the sea or in the countryside.

[Teamedup]

I must say that our friends here know that we are leaving and think we should have a pied a terre here. We just couldn't afford it.

Sorry if no one has mentioned it but the reason that people leave their regions is no blxxdy work rather than nowhere to live. And the ghost villages are there because people have had to leave. Those remaining, well, hard to buy anywhere on the SMIC really. So no, perhaps people could not afford these properties anyway.

The ethics of doing it. Well these places are already often dying anyway. Would letting their demise continue or do the second home folks or even just foreigners moving in boost the place. However, who would be moving in also opens up far more questions.

It is true that the dutch do travel with a lot of their provisions with them, no one is making it up. Who on earth could afford sweet vermicellis in the quantities they eat them, from french supermarkets. AND one can't get coffee milk in France....... boy do I know, dutch friends had me doing the rounds of every supermarket around here looking for it....... there was none. And that is just the start.

[Turnip]

I see there was a feature on early morning TV today about a new Brittanny demo against house price rises and growing inability of locals to buy. Some say Brits are objects of resentment among locals but other locals state resentment is not directed at English second home owners. Local estate Agent (He is English - lived in Brittany for past 16 years) states that in his sixteen years he thinks rises are down to French greed and lack of integration attempts by British home owners - especially second home owners. This estate agent states he saw similar problems when he moved to Cornwall in 1972. Well I live in Cornwall and can testify to half empty villages in Winter and growing resentment at second home owners.Unlike the UK the French will probably heed these growing rumbles of discontent and do something to limit the canker of second home ownership.

[Russethouse]

Living in the Thames Valley, you may think that second home ownership here is unusual, but not a bit of it ! Several Berkshire villages wishing to keep housing for local young people have built starter homes or only approved developments when they include starter homes for locals.

I guess this is the way that the French will overcome the problem too.

It would be very hard (and probably impossible) to tell a French seller that they may not get the best possible price for their home, if the buyer is English !

Of course for this to have any validity there also has to be work locally available.

On the occasions I have spoken to Bretons about this they have assured me they prefer the houses to be renovated and inhabited some of the time (which in many cases they were not before)and of course those that are rented out also bring extra income to the area.

[Eskenazi]

'Turnip' refers to the 'canker' of second home ownership. Well, that seems pretty insulting to some of us! We have a second home in France & have not experienced any resentment, indeed we should be outraged if there were! We are accepted - even, I think / hope, liked in our village - we pay our taxes etcx but don't get to experience most of the village's amenities because we are not there often enough. We both speak French & would love to be full time there but we cannot, and, of course, here's the rub! -

May I ask why people who work something like 72 hours a week, as my husband does, plus commuting time, cannot spend their money as they choose? We have a 3 year old car, no fancy furniture or clothes, but we have a 2nd home, so this ssomehow entitles luckier people who can live in the country, to call us cankers! I'll tell you what a real canker is - it's the scourge upon UK society that we have, which is 'chavdom' for want of a better word - I won't call it 'chav culture' since I abhor the use of the term 'culture' used in that way - which makes it impossible for decent, kind, gentle people like us to live free from vandalism / anti social behaviour / yobs everywhere / transport un - usable / London impossible..etc etc etc.

Given this, why can't we buy a little bit of peace to enjoy for 5 weeks a year (yes, that's all he gets)to compensate for the vast taxes he pays so the rest of you can claim your 'Family Credit' and your 'Incapacity allowance' and all the rest?

[Miki]

which makes it impossible for decent, kind, gentle people like us to live free from vandalism / anti social behaviour / yobs everywhere / transport un - usable / London impossible..etc etc etc.

Given this, why can't we buy a little bit of peace to enjoy for 5 weeks a year (yes, that's all he gets)to compensate for the vast taxes he pays so the rest of you can claim your 'Family Credit' and your 'Incapacity allowance' and all the rest?

I have no problems with people having second homes, we know of several French persons who do not own their main residency but own a second home in the country or by the  sea, it is an extremely popular thing to do amongst the French. 

We ourselves had an appartment in France at one time before we moved over but, I do object to people who say ".. decent, kind, gentle people like us to live free etc etc" All the kind, gentle nice folk I know, would have a lot of sympathy for those who have to live on benefits through no fault of their own. To generalise "so the rest of you can can claim your........" is not a very nice trait is it ?

Because one might not understand others and their way of life, is not a reason to try and belittle their existence any more than you personally can't accept criticism of your style of life.

And to then accuse people of sponging off the back of your husbands toil is not fair to many tens of thousands of people who find themselves in need of family credit or incapacity benefit. 

Not everyone claiming benefits are fag smoking, booze binging desperadoes. Lots of people get caught in the poverty trap for many reasons, again, please don't belittle those that would love to be like you and your husband but, for various reasons will never aspire to such heights.

There but for the grace etc etc...................

 

[Teamedup]

Well bully for him, if he worked in France, to do 72 hours a week he would be working in a restaurant and getting around 900/1000 euros a month pay and no lousy chance of even buying a first home never mind a second one. And ofcourse no fancy cars or anything else fancy come to think.

Toil, you bettchya it is hard work.