no tax in france

[Belle]

Friends of ours have been in france for just over two years, they have not, and are not going to go to the tax office here in france, we have said that they are probably paying more tax in uk than they would here, but they have said that they will live with that rather than go to all the bother of sorting out their finances and filling in complicated forms, can this be right, my gut instinct says not, how will all this end up for them.

[cooperlola]

What they are doing is illegal, and when the authorities catch up with them they'll get - at the very least - a hefty fine.  But honestly, don't worry about them.  My attitude to people like this is that you'll never persuade them to do the right thing so why waste your breath?[Www]

[AnOther]

................and I'll bet they're still running around in a car on UK plates too [6]

 

[Belle]

no they do have a french car, and gites, and are always at the doctor, so something may happen shortly, don't you think, won't cpam cotton on.

[cooperlola]

Well, eventually, when their E106s run out then they will probably be asked for their French tax returns by their CPAM.  If these aren't forthcoming then they will be unlikely to get into CMU, imo.  Still, if they're willing to pay UK levels of tax they won't mind coughing up for private insurance will they?

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Belle"]no they do have a french car, and gites, and are always at the doctor, so something may happen shortly, don't you think, won't cpam cotton on.[/quote]

 

Give the impots a ring and URSSAF     .

Bet they are not declaring their Gite income

[gosub]

My guess is that they are retired and using E121's  and they don't have to produce an earnings declaration for their health-care to CPAM. so for now they can get away with it, but what happens when they want to sell their property? assuming that they do own one, they will not be able to show proof of residence to the notaire.

[Clair]

Even with an E121, they are required to declare their rental income in France.

[andyh4]

of course they are Clair, but unlike E106 earners there is no check or balance in the system to make them do it.

 

This of course is what a lot of people in similar situation on E106s thought until the health care changes were proposed and then its suddenly, "Ive been in France for 7 years and they want to throw me out of the system".

[Belle]

Thank you for all your comments, I kept feeling it wasn't right, we will see what happens, 'madam Guilotine'  springs to mind.

[Ron Avery]

Sadly the chances of them being caught are low.  Its no wonder France is in the red.  I know people who are in the CMU which is supposed to be linked to the tax system and they do not declare tax in France, they just show a P60 to CPAM as evidence of income and tax paid, as they equally cannot be bothered, which says a lot about the attitude of English functionaries!!  However, at least their income is properly taxed in the UK.

To be honest BaF I doubt that the tax office would be interested, a friend had an ex tax office employee as a French teacher and asked about people she knew who did not pay tax, the teacher said they will be picked up some day when they need welfare!! 

[JMB]

I hope they have thigh high wellies, 'cause they're more than knee deep in the doo doo. 

When the system catches up with them, and it will, they are in for a nasty surprise.  From many conversations I've had with people, two years seems to be a recurring timeframe for people living off-the-record to get caught out. 

It would be no bad thing to impress upon your acquaintances that the longer they let this run, the worse it will get.

[Jay]

[quote user="John Martin BRADLEY"]From many conversations I've had with people, two years seems to be a recurring timeframe for people living off-the-record to get caught out. 

[/quote]

Do you really think so? I have friends that have had a home here for 15 years and lived here permanently for 8 years. They had Gites income and an E111 in case they got sick. Their daughter goes to school here. They have never paid taxes. Recently they sold their large home and purchased two smaller properties. They have a big problem now, of course, if the want to join the healthcare system.

[JMB]

Certainly not a thing to advocate or expect to get away with if you're planning to move to France. 

I've spoken to people who have had a dreadful time when the proverbial "knock at the door" came - including three families who had to leave France after having completely lost their shirts.

It must be tremendously stressful worrying about what is goign to happen if you get caught.   Much better to do the "right thing" and pay your dues in my humble opinion.

Two years of back-payment of cotisations (not such an issue with gite income) is normally enought to put most people in serious trouble.  Fifteen years is another matter altogether.  

Not to say that if you are going to benefit from what your host country has to offer it is only right to make your contribution (even if it is a horrendously large proportion of your income).

Wasn't there an amnesty for this sort of thing in the Dordogne a couple of  years ago?

[KathyF]

The mind boggles, Jay! Presumably they were happy for their daughter's education to be paid for by other people's taxes? I wonder if they even paid any UK taxes to cover their E111.... And there are people who call immigrants to the UK scroungers! [:@]

[Clair]

[quote user="John Martin BRADLEY"]Wasn't there an amnesty for this sort of thing in the Dordogne a couple of  years ago? [/quote]

Quite the opposite in fact...

Discussed here:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1/586704/ShowPost.aspx

and a few other links, found by googling "Britanniques RMI":

http://archquo.nouvelobs.com/cgi/articles?ad=societe/20060121.FAP1139.html&host=http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/

http://www.lexpress.fr/info/societe/dossier/arnaque/dossier.asp?ida=437648

http://www.humanite.fr/2006-02-08_Societe_Tous-les-Anglais-ne-sont-pas-fraudeurs-du-RMI

http://forums.france2.fr/france2/europe1/complexe-thatcherien-fraudent-sujet_10673_1.htm

http://www.lefigaro.fr/france/20060429.FIG000000644_les_britanniques_a_la_conquete_de_la_france.html

[Will]

[quote user="Jay"]Recently they sold their large home and purchased two smaller properties.

[/quote]

So at least they got caught for plus values (capital gains tax)

[Val_2]

Surely if they are paying in the UK won't the revenue there inorm their french counterparts sooner or later to check things out? I would be sh*****g myself I can tell you because if the french do come after them for their share, it could bankrupt them. They do it for artisans caught on the black and make them pay back years of cotisations the fisc deem to be owing and this is no different.

[Ron Avery]

I must agree with Jay at the moment you would have too be very unlucky to get caught.

If anyone watched France 24 yesterday "Reporters" , about illegal workers in Parius and the French attititude to them, you would have seen that the chances of anyone getting caught not paying taxes is very low.

One Cleaner in Paris was an illegal worker but she had actually gone and collected a tax form each year had paid taxes for three years but had not been identified as having no Social security number, she believed that if she had  evidence of working and paying taxes for five years she could be accepted in France just shoprtt of five years in France wqorking illegally, she approached the tax office for a SS number as she wanted to join the Healthcare system and she asked the tax office what to do, they said get your employer to sort it out for you. 

There were fake T de S being sold for 250€ good enough to fool an employer and Pass ports for 5000€.  On one building site the boss admitted that he had lost a lot of his worke force from Mali during a raid as they had no papers but they were all back working using other people's papers.  A reporter asked for a job and said he had no papers as he was an illegal and the supervisor told him to borrow somebody else's papers.

[mint]

I, too, am very sceptical about anyone being caught.

The worst, but not the only, case I know of involves a couple on E121 who have lived here for nearly 4 years.  They have never filled in a tax form, have full CPAM cover, top-up, the lot.  Naturally, they own a couple of vehicles both still on British plates.

They own a large property back in the UK , which is let for a very handy 4 -figure sum - pay no tax in UK.  In receipt of state and government pensions, all very comfortable.

Last year, they asked me whether I knew how they could claim for a reduction in their taxe d'habitation as they are "only 2 old pensioners" and they thought this tax was excessive!

As I say, not by any means the only people I know who live happily and seemingly trouble-free in France without paying impots and with perfect impunity. 

[Sunday Driver]

I wouldn't be too skeptical about it...

The 'lutte contre des frauds' has been on the political agenda for some time now.  There is already information exchange between the impots, douanes, social security, more recently CAF, as well as co-operation with foreign authorities.  Three weeks ago, they passed a new decree authorising the setting up of new regional and departmental agencies under the direction of the procureur de la republique tasked with the detection of fraud involving public finances and the recovery of such funds.

Remember too, that all new immigrants must register with their mairie and provide proof of sufficient resources.  These registrations are reported to the prefecture, so there's no reason to believe they won't be copied to the impots....

I suspect the days of cheating expats are numbered, so just listen out for the squeels.....

 

 

[Val_2]

That is just how it was when we first came here to live permanently, all resources had to disclosed via the mairie to the local Prefecture and the Police HQ for the dept so that the Carte de Séjour could be issued when investigations had been carried out into our application. An Australian who used to live a couple of kms from us had to keep visiting the Channel Islands every three months because the authorities refused him residency here due to drug convictions years previous and for which he had not disclosed and the french woman he was living with was not married. It got difficult eventually and they all went back to Oz.

[chessie]

Sweet 17  -

Please don't jump to conclusions about 'people not paying tax' . The people you mention in your post will most definitely be paying tax in the UK.  Unless you are renting out your property privately (which is difficult if you live in France) - it is impossible to receive rental income without the tax authorities knowing because the letting agents either keep 20% of rental income or the rental is passed on to the owner gross provided a UK tax form has been completed. And the Tenants Deposit Scheme means Customs & Revenue 'match up' Landlords and tenants...and HMCR are cracking down hard on Landlords not declaring rental income....

So your couple will be paying UK tax on their rental income; and by doing so they will also be completing UK self-assessment forms...and if they have Civil Service pensions HMRC 'grab' those first as well...

So please don't make such sweeping statements - I don't believe it is possible to live in France, have UK income - and NOT be taxed on it either in the UK first or subsequently in France.

If they are avoiding the HMRC on their rental income, the tenants deposit and their pensions, then of course they're in deep trouble - but it would take nerves of steel, no morals and they'd have to be pretty astuste to completely avoid tax in the UK and France.

But I do think the idea of them trying to reduce their taxe d'habitation is just asking for trouble if they're not in the French system.  If you feel so strongly about their circumstances maybe you should 'encourage' them to get it reduced !!!!

Abientot - Chessie

[mint]

No, Chessie, I have not been guilty of making sweeping statements at all.  It's simply not my style to shoot off about things when I don't know the facts.

I know this couple and their financial circumstances quite well as they never cease to go on and on about them.  They have let their properties in the UK privately, having a relative to check up for them occasionally on their tenants.  The rent is paid by the tenants into a UK bank account.

They have told Newcastle that they are now living in France, therefore they were issued with their E121s.  One of them is in receipt of a government pension (SERPS) and one of a state pension.

As they keep telling me, who is to know where and for how long they are in each country?  They keep up their UK address for things like the DVLA and have even been back to see their GP, no questions asked.  One of their tenants forward all their mail.  Their pensions are paid full into the UK accounts and they only cash such money as they need in France.

They go back a few times a year, more often than not when there are problems with the rent being paid or when the cars need their yearly MOT.

If you think it's not possible to "get away" with doing all this, I invite you to think again.  I assure you it's happening under the authorities' noses, no probs.

And no, I don't feel that strongly about it; that is, I think they are cheats and disgraceful to humankind but I will not wilfully "shop" them or deliberately steer them in a direction to get them into trouble.  I just don't like "sneaking".  But, it's no skin off my nose; I shall know soon enough when (IF) they get into trouble and come running to me to read official letters and ask for advice.

[Ron Avery]

Sorry Chessie, but you are being totally naive if you think that there are only isolated cases of abuse.

I was going to say we must know the same people Sweet 17 but you are nowhere near me.   One lot have "dissapeared" and pay nothing, no tax no health care, nothing.  Flat in London rented out via family and payments banked in the UK. 

Another couple have property rented out in the UK, UK GP still treats them as they use the house as UK address,  tenants forward the mail, UK registered car, cash from the hole in wall and UK C/C in the supermarket, so who knows apart from their neighbours and their tenants that they live in France for 10 months in the year?  When she vgets an E 121 they will " move" to France. Yes this couple pay tax in the UK, but no Sociale charges on interest received nor CMU payments which they should have been paying as they left the UK permanently years ago. 

Over the many years that I holidayed in France, few of the payments for the gites went to France, most to relatives in the UK, some owners even took their cars to the UK to get MOT'd so as not to register any presence in France and to avoid tax and healthcare payments, had the E111 for emergencies and dentist visit while getting car Mot'd in Dover.