Electricity bills expected to rise

[Clair]

Electricité: hausse des factures attendue     (Electricity bills expected to rise)

[Benjamin]

My bill to the end of June has on it:

Les tarifs de l’électricité augmentent de 2% le 15/08/2008.

Vous trouverez plus d’informations sur www.edf.fr.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Benjamin"]My bill to the end of June has on it:

Les tarifs de l’électricité augmentent de 2% le 15/08/2008.

Vous trouverez plus d’informations sur www.edf.fr.

[/quote]

Hi,

 Let's hope it stops there, EDF have asked the government to approve a 20% rise over the next 3 years. Hopefully this will not be politically possible.

[Martin963]

Leaving aside the standing charge,  French electricity prices have been very stable in comparison with those of us unfortunate enough to have to pay British prices.

In the ten years we've had a house in 24 the increase has been a few %,  whilst in Britain they have -  quite simply - doubled.

And I know which country I think it more likely to have the lights going out in 2015.......

[danny]

According to E Control and VaasaETT prices as of June 2009 are as follows for the UK and France to include all taxes and distribution taxes.

London UK 13.93€

Paris France 12.32€

I make that 1.61€ or 12.45% difference per kWh.

Using the figures that you quoted the prices in the UK have been much lower than France for the majority of the last 10 years.

[Martin963]

Puzzling.  I'll look out my bills tomorrow.

What do those figures you give actually mean?  Per month?  Per week?   They aren't the price per kWh,  that would be an outrageous rate!!

I was just looking at the price per kWh (and doing it from memory,  I actually did the calc about two years ago). 

I'll take another look when time allows.   What I do know is that our Devon EDF kWh rates went up in leaps and bounds particularly over the last three years.   We moved to Scottish Power which has reduced them back (a bit) to 11 p kWh peak and 5 p kWh off-peak,  with higher charges of about 16 p for the first 220 kWh per quarter on the peak rate (representing the standing charge).   EDF wanted over four bob per kWh for the first 200 nits a quarter.  FOUR BOB!!!!

Laters

Current France tariff peak € 0.0803, off peak € 0.0472 per kWh

tariff in March 1999  peak FF 0.5311,   off peak FF 0.3242  soit  € 0.0809 and €0.0494.

Unless I'm missing something the unit costs for the actual electricity are virtually unchanged here in Perigord at least,  as I suspected.   Whereas they've doubled in Devon.   I have not accounted for standing charges,  but the only additional "autres prestations" seems to be €0.0045 per kWh which on our bill comes out at €3.72 last quarter.

[NormanH]

Don't forget 'taxes locales' and TVA

On a 'consommation' of

 of 560 euros worth of electricity + 95 euros of  'abonnement' these (plus 'autre prestations') took my bill up to 890. this last year

That is to say 240 euros of taxes, and 95 euros of standing charges.

[Martin963]

No indeed.   But I have said twice that I am looking at the price per kWh only,  and comparing the increase in that figure for Britain and for France.

I'm trying to see how the cost of electricity has changed,  not a whole load of other add-ons.

As for the standing charge,  we now pay €20.35 per month.  in 1999 it was FF 124.60,  ie € 18.99.   A very small increase.

It still seems to me that French customers (mainly presumably because of nuclear energy prices being stable) have a lot lot less to complain about than those of us with supplies in rip-off Britain.   Maybe the howls of anger over the increase in electricity and gas prices in Britain over the last three years simply don't register amongst the ex-pat community,  who then are scandalised by a couple of % increase here in France.......

But I would be the first to concede that labour's trashing of the £ makes everything seem more expensive in France.

[krusty]

[quote user="Martinwatkins"]
As for the standing charge,  we now pay €20.35 per month. 

[/quote]

Our standing charge is 28.22 and a friends is 27.24

 

[Martin963]

Well you're doubtless on a higher capacity tariff than we are.   We are 3 phase 12 kW,  which roughly equates to a maximum current on each phase of 20 A

3 phase of 20 A max each gives a total max current of 60 A.

60 amps x 220 V = 13200 W = approx 12 kW,  leaving a lot of theory about AC on one side and making a number of simplifying assumptions!

You may well be on the 15 or 18 kW tariff,  for which you will pay a higher standing charge.   Ours was 18 kW originally,   but we took out some heaters and rebalanced some of the loads on individual phases and persuaded EDF that we could come down two notches.

Still doesn't detract from my central point that the *INCREASE* in France over the last ten years has been minimal,  whilst in Britain it's bordered on licensed banditry!

[Panda]

Prices for electricity have always been pretty high in France so perhaps Clare is right that it has stayed high whilst the UK has caught up and overtaken, I remember that from my move in 2003, price of oil was really low though in France then but now of course that has more than doubled.  It's all swings and roundabouts, it's about the same all round when gains and losses in both directions

[Théière]

Is the standing charge linked to the size of the supply selected on the compteur?

What are the hours of off peak?

[velcorin]

Energy prices will increase dramatically here over the next 2-3 years, but not sure the domestic user will notice, it will be mainly industrial customers. But there are some very nasty surprises in store in the near future on energy prices. EdF is not a normal business as Brits would understand the term. I have the misfortunate of having to deal with them very closely in business, basically EdF have a rigged market. But' it's all about to change.

1 The EU Commission is forcing EdF realign it's illegal pricing structure. Historically domestic users have subsidised the industrial users. Domestic bills should go down by about 20%, and industrial bills increase by about 25%.

2 EdF is financially responsible for decommissioning the nuclear plants. It will start in 2011, UK paid GBP 100billion to decommission 12 plants, so about EUR 10billion per plant. So far EdF have put aside EUR 5billion, so as from next year they will have to find an extra 10billion a year, in a business that turns over 40billion. 'Lecky prices up by 25% across the board?

3 EdF is now responsible for it's employees pensions. Historically the Government picked up the bill, roughly EUR 5billion per year will need to be put aside. 'Lecky prices up by 15% across the board?

4 EdF will have to pay a market price for future nuclear plants. Historically Areva built the plants, the Government paid for them, and EdF paid a nominal sum to buy them off the Government. Not any more. Roughly EUR 5billion per year needs to be put aside. Another 15% increase across the board?

As always politics will stop it happening, but prices should increase by about 50% in the next 2-3 years. Bets on Sarko finding some way of bailing out EdF? Free and fair competition in the EU? RWE. E-on and Iberderola are threatening legal challenges if the Government doesn't implement the full cost increases. Will the Government abolish the 1% surcharge on bills that goes to Works Council to pay for EdF employees free electricity and the colonies de vacances for their free holodays in Guadeloupe, etc? Nope.

Good luck. I being moved to Switzerland, so can watch from the sidelines.

[Martin963]

Panda - I give up.      Yes,  *standing prices* are higher than in Britain.   I've quoted the kWh figures,  (the cost of the actual electricity)  but still it seems I'm not believed.   I will make no further comment,  other than to say that some of you should actually TRY having an electricity supply in Britain and see how much *using* electricity costs.   We have reduced our UK costs by switching suppliers,  but EDF Britain wanted 3 bob a kWh even after the initial high costs units were consumed.   EDF here ask for €0.0803 per kWh,  which even with the collapsed £ is only 7 p per kWh. 

Teapot - yes,  your standing charge increases with the "capacity" of the supply that EDF and you elect to use.  This is of course limited by the size of the cable that links you to the network,  but sometimes one can persuade EDF to drop one down even though it leaves them a bit out of pocket (as of course they don't change the incoming cable!!)  

If you are on the 12 or 9 or 6 kW tariff you may find that if you try to use too many appliances at once your trip switch will cut you off,  and power can only be restored by unplugging something and then resetting. 

And if like us your supply is 3 phase it only takes one phase to be overloaded for the trip to go.

You can tell what tariff you are on by close inspection of your bill.

I think Heures Creuses vary but ours are 22.30 - 06.30 regardelss of winter or summer (ie national France time applies all year). 

[Martin963]

@ velcorin -  thank you for your very informed explanation.   Seems to fit in with what I've been saying,  maybe unit prices are lower in France because as you say people here haven't being paying the "true" costs. 

[suein56]

[quote user="teapot"]

Is the standing charge linked to the size of the supply selected on the compteur?

What are the hours of off peak?

[/quote]

Yes, we are with EDF and our rating is 9 Kw and our standing charge is 14€11 per month.

Our heures creuses are 02h05 til 07h20 and 14h20 til 17h05; I understand these can vary from area to area, and that this split system might no longer be available. BTW our house was built in 1995 and still has the original tariff.

Sue

[Théière]

Thankyou Matinwatkins and Suein56 time to look at my bill [geek]

[Panda]

[quote user="Martinwatkins"]@ velcorin -  thank you for your very informed explanation.   Seems to fit in with what I've been saying,  maybe unit prices are lower in France because as you say people here haven't being paying the "true" costs. 
[/quote]

Now I'm really confused, I see Velocorin statng there will be a huge increases in prices in France via EdF (to pay for the decom of power stations) and that in the past domestic users have subsidised industry making the prices high not low.

How does that fit in with what you've been saying

[krusty]

[quote user="Martinwatkins"]

You may well be on the 15 or 18 kW tariff,  for which you will pay a higher standing charge.   Ours was 18 kW originally,   but we took out some heaters and rebalanced some of the loads on individual phases and persuaded EDF that we could come down two notches.


[/quote]

No ours is 9kw and our friends is 6kw ..........who knows the mysteries of EDF[Www]

edit ps sorry just realised French bills are 2 monthly [:$]

[Doodle]

Hi Krusty, our bill is also 28.22 for the 2 months and we also are on 9kw.

October last year we had electric heating installed and were advised to move up from 6kw, the abonnement was 14.11 which doubled when we moved up to 9kw. We increased to 9kw as we had already witnessed several instances in winter late at night when we had 4 electric plug in rads working, the TV on, a couple of lights and if we forgot to turn off one of the rads to put the kettle on - Bang we went into overload zone. Not nice searching for a torch in the pitch black !

Chris

[Martin963]

Panda - suggest you re-read the prices I have given for Britain and France..   As I say,   no further discussions from my end.

[NormanH]

I think that the original post was that 'Electricity bills are expected to rise'. It refers to prices in France.

Nobody seems to think any different, and as has been pointed out the 2% rise has already been announced, and EDF have asked for 20% over the coming few years.

Whether prices in the UK ( or anywhere else) are higher or lower makes no difference, if you don't live there, nor does whether they have increased more or less matter,  as the point in the price cycle in two countries may be different

Nor does it matter what the unit costs are. You have to pay the bill, however it is broken down.

I merely wished to point out the very high percentage of the bill  in France that is made up of non-electricity.

In my example 37% comes from taxes/charges etc.

[Clair]

For info:

The current EDF tariffs are shown here:

http://www.edf-bleuciel.fr/accueil/j-ai-besoin-d-energies/electricite/les-tarifs-electricite-141626.html

The details of the power, tariff (and low-rate hours if applicable) are shown at the back of each EDF bill.

More info here (click on verso on the left and see 16 for details of the tariff):

http://www.edf-bleuciel.fr/accueil/mon-quotidien-avec-bleu-ciel-d-edf/comprendre-la-facture-141970.html