Patf Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 What if these foreign landlords refuse to pay the extra tax? Unless they have a french bank account it will be difficult to track them down in many cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Well the authorities could ask the British revenue to share info on all your assets, they can prosecute. The tax office can fine you.They are far less understanding abt mistakes even when its there own. They can as a final resort confiscate property much in the same way as bailifs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="HoneySuckleDreams"][quote user="Aly"]PM says that they will go to war against tax dogers or frauisters. This is a super nanny state after all. . [/quote]Does that include all the french artisans who trouser a considerable sum by working on the black? There are considerable more people who don't declare the correct amount of earnings than are non-resident second home owners. Or will the artisans start bleating that he's picking on them when he should be screwing the "rich"[/quote] Looks like a lot of "dobbing in " may be about to take place when this kicks in then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="HoneySuckleDreams"][quote user="Aly"]PM says that they will go to war against tax dogers or frauisters. This is a super nanny state after all. . [/quote]Does that include all the french artisans who trouser a considerable sum by working on the black? There are considerable more people who don't declare the correct amount of earnings than are non-resident second home owners. Or will the artisans start bleating that he's picking on them when he should be screwing the "rich"[/quote]There is little to support small enterprise. Impossible to hire staff and tax and contributions that makes working and earning to much unprofitable.The only ones the govt support are the state workers. Who willl be added to in number.They are also going to save the french car industry - to be announced nexet week, probably by using EU funds. The fact that they are non competitive is not important.British Leyland and the seventies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Russethouse"]Renting must have costs, will these be able to be offset ?Even if this goes through I can't think it will profit the French exchequer much, my guess there will be lots of ways round it.......[/quote]The costs of renting can be offset for tax but not for social charges, another reason to be clear about the distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Sprogster"]Unless I am missing something the major deterrent factor with the proposals for non resident owners is that they will not be able to get double tax relief, as the additional charges will not qualify as tax under double tax agreements.[/quote]As I posted earlier, the DTT specifically categorises CSG and CRDS as "taxes" which can therefore be offset in the UK. The problem arises if the UK resident is only liable for the lower rate of UK tax, in which case the extra paid in France cannot be offset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Patf"]What if these foreign landlords refuse to pay the extra tax? Unless they have a french bank account it will be difficult to track them down in many cases.[/quote]I presume that you mean UK residents who are letting out their second homes on an ad-hoc basis, because anyone else is going to have a heck of a job operating in France without a French bank account. In any case the Fisc can (will, and does) seize your property and sell it at auction. You can run, but you can't hide ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 How Le Figaro is reporting this issue (relying quite a bit on parts of the Telegraph article) Love the photo, showing a typical British lady (in French eyes)http://www.lefigaro.fr/impots/2012/07/05/05003-20120705ARTFIG00541-hausses-d-impots-les-anglais-de-france-peu-inquiets.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="NormanH"]How Le Figaro is reporting this issue (relying quite a bit on parts of the Telegraph article) Love the photo, showing a typical British lady (in French eyes)http://www.lefigaro.fr/impots/2012/07/05/05003-20120705ARTFIG00541-hausses-d-impots-les-anglais-de-france-peu-inquiets.php[/quote] Interesting thing Norman was reading the comments from the French. As has already been said, in most areas property prices haven't exactly boomed so the capital gains tax effect to house sellers will be minimal, unless of course you bought to let, but then that was a business decision and business's go up and down all the time. Unlike the UK; where property hopping is a national past time, Brits who buy in France buy to enjoy and tend to stay put. I bought a house in France because I could afford it and wanted to spend time in a country that I like and in an environment that is different from my residence in the UK. If I'd been worried about a few Euros tax I wouldn't have bought in the first place Although the spin doctors and purveyors of doom would like us to think differently. [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Patf"]What if these foreign landlords refuse to pay the extra tax? Unless they have a french bank account it will be difficult to track them down in many cases.[/quote]I presume that you mean UK residents who are letting out their second homes on an ad-hoc basis, because anyone else is going to have a heck of a job operating in France without a French bank account. In any case the Fisc can (will, and does) seize your property and sell it at auction. You can run, but you can't hide ...[/quote] I find it strange that people in France automatically assume that if a Brit has a holiday home .Then they MUST be letting it out and lining their pockets . Because thats what they probably would do , Even the Notaire when I bought my place remarked that I could " rent it out now " . What it had to do with him what I did with it I dont know .. I dont rent it and never will . But I have had the boys in blue check me out They made a point of asking if I rented it out and employed a French agent to act for me in doing so . It seemed even they expected it to be rented out with a beach 10 minutes down the road in their eyes it HAD to be . They filled in a form and off they went so no doubt there is a record kept somewhere on the use of second homes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Perhaps I hear wrongly, but some government spokesman seemed to be saying on the radio that people doing DIY on their (second) homes will face an additional tax as they are denying work to local artisans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]Perhaps I hear wrongly, but some government spokesman seemed to be saying on the radio that people doing DIY on their (second) homes will face an additional tax as they are denying work to local artisans?[/quote]I hereby vote this to be the wind-up of the day! Naughty banana! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Aly"][quote user="Sprogster"]The big problem in extending social security charges to EU non residents, is that they would be discriminated against in that unlike French residents they cannot enjoy social security benefits for which they would be contributing. Also these proposed charges would not qualify for relief under any double tax treaty for non residents, not being a tax.Apparently the UK government have said they will challenge through EU courts if implemented.Meanwhile not good at all for values of properties in regions popular with second home owners.[/quote]The social charges have nothing to do with social security or services. Despite the name they are a tax. They were bought in years ago to help with the national debt.[/quote]Hi, The social charges are now specified as a tax which is covered by the "new" double tax treaty (Article 2) the reason they are being applied to french second homes and gite rents is that the same treaty (Article 6) lays down that income arising from real estate (capital gains and rents) is "taxable" in the country where the real estate is situated -in this case France). Unlike government pensions which the treaty says are "taxable ONLY" in the country of origin , the wording of Article 6 leaves it open for the UK also to tax such french income, after giving credit for french tax paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Frederick"] I find it strange that people in France automatically assume that if a Brit has a holiday home .Then they MUST be letting it out and lining their pockets.[/quote]I hadn't intended to give that impression in my comments - in any case I am a UK-resident second home owner with French investments to pay the bills on the French property. It's bad enough when close friends and family borrow the place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote user="Frederick"][quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Patf"]What if these foreign landlords refuse to pay the extra tax? Unless they have a french bank account it will be difficult to track them down in many cases.[/quote]I presume that you mean UK residents who are letting out their second homes on an ad-hoc basis, because anyone else is going to have a heck of a job operating in France without a French bank account. In any case the Fisc can (will, and does) seize your property and sell it at auction. You can run, but you can't hide ...[/quote] I find it strange that people in France automatically assume that if a Brit has a holiday home .Then they MUST be letting it out and lining their pockets . Because thats what they probably would do , Even the Notaire when I bought my place remarked that I could " rent it out now " . What it had to do with him what I did with it I dont know .. I dont rent it and never will . But I have had the boys in blue check me out They made a point of asking if I rented it out and employed a French agent to act for me in doing so . It seemed even they expected it to be rented out with a beach 10 minutes down the road in their eyes it HAD to be . They filled in a form and off they went so no doubt there is a record kept somewhere on the use of second homes . [/quote]Given the aversion that some people have to paying thei taxes is it really so strange that a government does some checks to see that everything is in order. I feel they wouldbe failing in their duty if they do not do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 In both the UK and France there are moves to combine "social charges" with income taxes - hence in the UK there is a project to incorporate NI into income tax, producing an 11% higher income tax rate - and incidentally also thereby effectively extending NI to "unearned" income such as bank interest and net rental income. The concept of NI and of social charges would therefore disappear, thus avoiding the claim of discrimination on the part of non-resident taxpayers on the grounds that they do not benefit from the social charges. The last I heard, the subsuming of NI into an expanded income tax was due to happen sooner than the French equivalent. The announcement that we have just seen in France (along with the content of the latest DTT) could be seen in context as part of that process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Given the weakness of the French effort to reduce government spending so far (See Mr Moskovici's comments of yesterday), the fact that most of French industry seems to be closing down or trying to (60000 or so redundancies in the pipeline) and Mr Hollande's cuddling up to the Italian PM, Mr Monti, it strikes me that what is really happening is that the French Socialists want to take France from the northern block of relatively better off countries, to join the PIIG nations. Which would make them the F PIIGS or the FIIGS or something similar. This is either to blackmail the Germans into bailing them out too or to create a new block of permanently poorer and grumblier nations, all of whom have current or recent experience of the benefits of socialism. Except the Irish who are governed by a teashirt or somesuch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]Given the weakness of the French effort to reduce government spending so far (See Mr Moskovici's comments of yesterday), the fact that most of French industry seems to be closing down or trying to (60000 or so redundancies in the pipeline) and Mr Hollande's cuddling up to the Italian PM, Mr Monti, it strikes me that what is really happening is that the French Socialists want to take France from the northern block of relatively better off countries, to join the PIIG nations. Which would make them the F PIIGS or the FIIGS or something similar. This is either to blackmail the Germans into bailing them out too or to create a new block of permanently poorer and grumblier nations, all of whom have current or recent experience of the benefits of socialism. Except the Irish who are governed by a teashirt or somesuch. [/quote]UK a candidate for this group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 What is UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 A small state on the fringe of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]What is UK?[/quote]That's a rather profound question for a wet (at least where I am) Friday, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]What is UK?[/quote]How about ....it's a Sovereign Country with lots of history and tradition,normally disliked by most European countries because, in the past, it has fought many wars with them and generally won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 You be careful, PD, one can be arrested these days for even hinting at patriotism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Its just a place where Friday is a hell of a lot wetter ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 So, breaking the habit of a computer's lifetime and going back to the original topic, where do the various recent pronouncements leave us NOW?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/francois-hollande/9379074/French-second-home-tax-grab-unconstitutional.htmlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9390225/David-Cameron-reassured-over-French-tax-grab-on-holiday-homes.htmlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/francois-hollande/9390219/Francois-Hollande-backtracks-on-holiday-homes.htmlWas Hollande really saying that "Britons will not be facing higher taxes" (in regards to ownership of holiday homes) or was he just saying, in effect, "those of you who own second homes are probably on the UK's higher marginal tax rate and therefore overall you won't be paying more tax"?I know that we can never take anything for granted until the decree appears in black and white but I'm now rather confused as to what the heck is going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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