Declaring foreign bank accounts

[richyrich2]

Am I the only one who thinks the amount of information required by the french tax offices, when declaring accounts is inviting fraud. Given the amount of personal data already available to them, I really don't want to give them all my bank details too.

[parsnips]

[quote user="richyrich2"]Am I the only one who thinks the amount of information required by the french tax offices, when declaring accounts is inviting fraud. Given the amount of personal data already available to them, I really don't want to give them all my bank details too.[/quote]

Hi,

    If you receive interest from the accounts the french tax people already get information about them under the EU savings directive rules.  By not declaring you are just risking penalties for no good reason.   You only give bank name and account number--the same as when you give anyone a cheque if it's a current account

[Aly]

If you have accounts where you receive no interest do you also need to declare these? Or where interest falls outside the French tax year for a first return

[cooperlola]

It's nothing to do with interest payments.  You should declare all non-French bank accounts.

[Simon-the-censored]

Yep - coops is completely correct - you need to declare all non French accounts opened, closed or used during the tax year in question. Use form/s 3916 on-line or the paper version.

The fines for not doing this are pretty hefty ranging from 1,500 € up to 10,000 € depending on where the account/s are located (i.e. fiscal agreement with France or not) and they are multiplied by the number of years of non declaration!

By the way - same goes for Assurance Vie contracts taken out.

Simon :-)

[Judith]

Oh dear - I've just handed in the forms today, and I forgot to do the foreign bank account details (I did them last year and they haven't changed.)

Should I worry?

What would you advise me to do now?

[andyh4]

Why do we think this is a French thing?

 

It is also required by UK, US and German tax authorities - and probably a lot more as well.

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="Judith"]Oh dear - I've just handed in the forms today, and I forgot to do the foreign bank account details (I did them last year and they haven't changed.)

Should I worry?

What would you advise me to do now?


[/quote]

Well Judith - should you worry? Depends on whether or not you want to risk the fines......

You need to declare accounts that have been opened, closed or used.

Here's a link to form 3916 (sections 1 and 4 are normally sufficient for accounts in the EU) - fill in and hand in would be my advice!!

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/deploiement/p1/fichedescriptiveformulaire_6896/fichedescriptiveformulaire_6896.pdf

Simon :-)

 

[Loirette]

Hi Simon

I understand having to declare non French bank accounts, but not sure what you mean about declaring Assurance Vie contracts.  How and where should they be delcared?

[Alex H]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]Yep - coops is completely correct - you need to declare all non French accounts opened, closed or used during the tax year in question. Use form/s 3916 on-line or the paper version.

The fines for not doing this are pretty hefty ranging from 1,500 € up to 10,000 € depending on where the account/s are located (i.e. fiscal agreement with France or not) and they are multiplied by the number of years of non declaration!

By the way - same goes for Assurance Vie contracts taken out.

Simon :-)[/quote]

Interesting!

Having just filled my first return and taken it to the Hotel d'Impots and had it checked by the staff, I asked about declaring bank accounts in the UK and was told 'No you don't have to do that'.

I'll fill in a form anyways :-)

[AnOther]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]The fines for not doing this are pretty hefty ranging from 1,500 € up to 10,000 € depending on where the account/s are located (i.e. fiscal agreement with France or not) and they are multiplied by the number of years of non declaration![/quote]Neat bit of scare mongering there Simon.

You are of course quoting potential penalties for attempted tax evasion through deliberate and complete non disclosure of foreign accounts and are hardly likely to visited on the average Brit on a modest income who has submitted the information but neglected to repeat it annually.

Should you do it - legally yes.

Will they come and take you away in handcuffs if you haven't - of course not.

What you would probably get initially would be a polite letter asking if you had made a mistake and if so inviting you to correct it and if there were nothing more sinister than failing to repeat the information they already had - end of story.

Personally I think the requirement is poorly drafted as after an initial declaration there is no logical for them to need the the same information over and over again so the only obligation should be to declare any new accounts opened.

[AnOther]

[quote user="richyrich2"]Am I the only one who thinks the amount of information required by the french tax offices, when declaring accounts is inviting fraud. Given the amount of personal data already available to them, I really don't want to give them all my bank details too.[/quote]

Yes, you probably are, where do you imagine your tax details go, Nigeria [:-))]

Would you fail to disclose required information the HMRC on the same basis ?

I'd love to be in the court when you used fear of fraud by the relevant tax authority as a defence against a charge of tax evasion [:D][:D][:D]

[Aly]

Hi Judith

I checked with the accountant, we compiled a list with account nos and name of bank and added it to our form 2042

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"]The fines for not doing this are pretty hefty ranging from 1,500 € up to 10,000 € depending on where the account/s are located (i.e. fiscal agreement with France or not) and they are multiplied by the number of years of non declaration![/quote]Neat bit of scare mongering there Simon.


[/quote]

Scare mongering ? Nope - just honest advice / facts - completely up to you what you do. No warning letters by the way - you just get the bill / fine.

Only trying to help......blimey!

Simon :-)

 

 

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="Loirette"]

Hi Simon

I understand having to declare non French bank accounts, but not sure what you mean about declaring Assurance Vie contracts.  How and where should they be delcared?

[/quote]

Bottom of page 4 of your 2042, box 8TT and attach / input details of the contract as per your annual attestation from your AV provider.

Simon:-)

 

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="Aly"]Hi Judith

I checked with the accountant, we compiled a list with account nos and name of bank and added it to our form 2042
[/quote]

Absolutely right Judith - you can attach a list with the details if you prefer.

Look - it's all pretty straightforward - 2 little boxes on page 4 (bottom) of your tax return:

Contrats d’assurance-vie conclus à l’étranger joignez la liste des contrats . . . . . . . . . . . . 8TT COCHEZ

Comptes bancaires à l’étranger?joignez la déclaration n° 3916 ou la liste des comptes sur papier libre . . . . . . 8UU COCHEZ

Simon :-)

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"][quote user="Loirette"]

Hi Simon

I understand having to declare non French bank accounts, but not sure what you mean about declaring Assurance Vie contracts.  How and where should they be delcared?

[/quote]

Bottom of page 4 of your 2042, box 8TT and attach / input details of the contract as per your annual attestation from your AV provider.

Simon:-)

 

[/quote]

Hi,

     All you declare are the company name, policy number, and date policy commenced. No need to show how much is in it , or any other details.

[Aly]

Hi my accountant did it for me. he didn't list any commencement dates? Just the account and bank names. Maybe you need the dates for the AV as there are tax advantages

[parsnips]

[quote user="Aly"]Hi my accountant did it for me. he didn't list any commencement dates? Just the account and bank names. Maybe you need the dates for the AV as there are tax advantages

[/quote] 

  Hi,

       That's right , the main advantage is the abattement (4 600€ -single and 9 200€  -married : off of the gains or interest  ) that starts after 8 years (with the 7.5% fixed rate on the balance (if that's less than your marginal rate)).

[Simon-the-censored]

Actually parsnips, although the abatements are pretty good after the 8 year period, the main advantage of an AV is that you are only taxed on the growth element of any withdrawal (no qualifying period).

Simon :-)

[AnOther]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]....just honest advice / facts....No warning letters by the way - you just get the bill / fine.[/quote]Really, you have verifiable proof of this, seems a bit harsh and summary even for France ?

I'm sure we are all trying to help but partial quoting my actual reply is not exactly in the spirit [;-)]

[Judith]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]

[quote user="Aly"]Hi Judith

I checked with the accountant, we compiled a list with account nos and name of bank and added it to our form 2042

[/quote]

Absolutely right Judith - you can attach a list with the details if you prefer.

Look - it's all pretty straightforward - 2 little boxes on page 4 (bottom) of your tax return:

Contrats d’assurance-vie conclus à l’étranger joignez la liste des contrats . . . . . . . . . . . . 8TT COCHEZ

Comptes bancaires à l’étranger?joignez la déclaration n° 3916 ou la liste des comptes sur papier libre . . . . . . 8UU COCHEZ

Simon :-)

[/quote]

Well that will be helpful for next year.  As they had the list last year (when I did attach a list of them, though they weren't in the least interested in the tax office), and since I declared a small amount of interest from the UK, we'll see what happens.

There seems to be some disagreement about how much it is really necessary, especially if the bank accounts haven't changed.  I rather suspect that they have far too much to do at this stage especially for  small amounts.

But when I am less pressed, I will probably send a list which will be exactly the same as the year before, with a covering letter, unless they chase first (which given their workload I suspect is unlikely).

As I said already, the form was delivered BEFORE I read this email, so telling me to cochez at 8TT etc after the event is a little pointless.

[cooperlola]

Is it necessary?  Well, your tax form - which you sign as complete says in Section 8:

"Comptes bancaires a l'etranger joigner la declartion no. 3816 ou la liste des comptes sur papier libre".  Then it asks you to tick the box 8UU.  (As SCL says) Now, fines or not, and enforced or not, your tax form does ask you to do it so why not?  What is neither on the form nor any notes, is anything to the effect that you only need to to do this once, nor is there any mention of whether they are active/interest bearing accounts nor anything else.  I get the distinct impression that my list just goes in the bin each year but honestly, what's the problem folks - is this such an effort?[:-))]

[Bonner01]

In my opinion, you must declare accounts that have been opened, closed or used. I mean you must declare all non-French bank accounts.

[allanb]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Now, fines or not, and enforced or not, your tax form does ask you to do it so why not?  [/quote]I agree, and I think there's a stronger reason.  If the tax people ever get aggressive over a wrong calculation or some other sin I've allegedly committed, I don't want them to be able to say "Oh, and by the way, it looks as though you've also failed to declare a foreign bank account."

It will probably never happen, but why take the risk?