IB

[woolybananasbrother]

Here they go again:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/welfare-reform-plan-to-get-thousands-to-work-872991.html

 

[AnOther]

With unemployment on the rise and predicted to hit 2m exactly where are these 'hundreds of thousands of people' going to find jobs ?

Perhaps they could have gangs of 'yoofs' going round creating graffiti followed closely by squads of workers cleaning it up, jobs for life and problem solved [I]

Do you think those who live outside UK and get taken off IB will get a travel allowance [6]

[Benjamin]

No no, they'll become prison guards and drug clinic enforcers as in.........

quote

Unemployed drug addicts who lie to get benefits will be forced to repay the

money and could face jail, while jobless people who take drugs will be

banned from receiving dole money unless they accept treatment.

unquote

Which planet do these people live on?

[Cat]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Do you think those who live outside UK and get taken off IB will get a travel allowance [6]

[/quote]

Interesting question.  I know nothing about IB, but is it meant to be a payment to help meet expenses incurred due to a disability or illness, or is it meant to compensate people for the wages they would have been able to earn if they were fit enough to work (and so a kind of long-term unemployment benefit)?

How long is unemployment benefit payed by the UK to Brits seeking work after moving to France?

[AnOther]

Someone else will no doubt pop up with chapter and verse but basically it's intended for those physically incapable of working as an alternative to being officially unemployed and claiming benefits.

Unfortunately, to massage the unemployment figures, for years this government encouraged the placement of people on IB who in all honesty shouldn't have been. In a simple case people who been out of work for a number of years and had some sort of medical issues which their doctor could use to justify it were put on it and essentially you were then there for life.

The problem now is that with the government coffers empty, and with falling tax revenues due to the economic situation, they are looking to reduce expenditure and IB is a prime soft target. The can call any recipient in for a reassessment at any time which is why a not inconsiderable number of people who have left UK and rely on IB for a significant part of their income are probably not sleeping as well as they otherwise might.

[quote user="Cat"]How long is unemployment benefit payed by the UK to Brits seeking work after moving to France?[/quote]To qualify for UK unemployment benefits you must be resident there and actively seeking work which is pretty hard to demonstrate if living in France [blink]

[Clair]

[quote user="ErnieY"][quote user="Cat"]How long is unemployment benefit payed by the UK to Brits seeking work after moving to France?[/quote]To qualify for UK unemployment benefits you must be resident there and actively seeking work which is pretty hard to demonstrate if living in France [blink][/quote]

Jobseeker's Allowance (JSA)

Contribution-based JSA

You

cannot usually get contribution-based JSA outside the EEA, but you may

be able to get contribution-based JSA in the EEA for up to three months

if you:

• are entitled to contribution-based JSA on the day you go abroad
• have registered as a jobseeker for at least four weeks before you leave. This can be less time in special circumstances
• are available for work and actively seeking work in Great Britain up to the day you leave
• are going abroad to look for work
• register
  for work at the equivalent of a Jobcentre in the country you are going
  to within seven days of last claiming JSA in the UK. If you do not, you
  may lose benefit
• follow the other country's system for claiming benefit, such as being available for and actively seeking work

Income-based JSA 

If you are going abroad permanently you cannot get income-based JSA.

You cannot usually get income-based JSA if your stay abroad is only temporary.

Check

with your local Jobcentre or Jobcentre Plus office if you need to fill

any forms in before you go abroad, or if you need more information

about JSA.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/BritonsLivingAbroad/Moneyabroad/DG_4000102

[Benjamin]

Lifted off the DirectGov website....

How much do you get?

Current weekly amounts

Weekly rate	Amount	Amount if you're over State Pension age
short-term (lower rate)	£63.75	£81.10
short-term (higher rate)	£75.40	£84.50
long-term basic rate	£84.50	You're not eligible for long-term basic rate IB

You

may be able to get an 'age addition' with your long-term Incapacity

Benefit if you were under 45 when you became too ill or disabled to

work.

You may be able to get extra benefit for your spouse or civil partner or the person who looks after your children.

Hardly a significant amount to live on Ernie.

[AnOther]

Please don't twist my words Benjamin, I said "rely on IB for a significant part of their income"

I have no idea what determies which rate of IB one receives however the average of the rates you quote is a shade over £4k pa and I think you might find that a good number of people would rightly regard that as significant [blink]

 

[woolybananasbrother]

reading between the lines, it will be very much more difficult or even impossible to get IB and live outside the UK.

[Tony F Dordogne]

This isn't a Labour idea at all.  It's the original US idea of the New Deal which the Tories picked up in the late 70's/early 80s - I know because I managed several of the management agencies that were set up to do the 'good works'.  It was an absolute bloody nightmare, people of 25/30 who had never worked and didn't really want to, people who had no idea about the disciplines of work (like getting up, let alone getting in on time) and generally trying to get anything done.

At one stage, I had 250 trainee gardeners working for me across London, some of whom were excellent, good workers and had some idea what they wanted to do with their lives.  But mainly they didn't have a clue like the day I made them dig us the several thousand bulbs they had planted the previous day because they were all upside down - I kid you folks not, they planted with the pointed end downwards 'cos that's what roots look like, innit?'

But in the main, it's an old idea which worked in the USA because of the investment involved, didn't work in the Thatcher era and almost certainly wont work now, the problems in the Uk seem to be even more entrenched.

As for getting people back to work who are claiming IB, until the government sorts out the doctors who, though claiming to be professional, seem to hand out certificates like confetti, the UK doesn't stand a chance.

And if anybody in the Uk wants to give an early-retired, twice retired on health grounds person a job, knowing I've got my blood thingy and all that goes with it, I'd be happy to speak to them.  As I said on here previously, I WANTED to work and couldn't get any help at all from the UK authorites, they could have been French, sharp suck at teeth and shake of head, 'no way mate, nobody in their right mind would give you a job'!!  Perhaps outsourcing - which I would normally oppose - just may be the kick in the bum some of the Job Centre staff need also. 

[Benjamin]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Please don't twist my words Benjamin, I said "rely on IB for a significant part of their income.

[/quote]

That wasn't my intention so apologies if it came across that way.

If you look at a "significant" part of income to be just over 5.000€ then I don't think this will support the G & T on the terrace sort of lifestyle that is conjured up in most people's minds when a thread on benefit claimants comes up.

If however you're talking about the UK pensioners here and in other European countries who are maintaining a ficticious address and still receiving winter fuel allowance on top of other benfits then this can certainly fund that lifestyle.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="Benjamin"]
If however you're talking about the UK pensioners here and in other European countries who are maintaining a ficticious address and still receiving winter fuel allowance on top of other benfits then this can certainly fund that lifestyle.

[/quote]

Benjamin, I think you'll find that it's paid to people whom the UK authorities know to be in other EU countries and who have declared their new permenant addresses to the appropriate authorities.

It depends on when you were first paid relevant to your age and date of leaving the UK or something as complex, as everything else to do with benefits in the UK.  One illusions needs to be dispelled - if you claim properly, getting benefits of any kind isn't easy, even when the law - like DLA reclaimants from EU addresses at the moment - is clearly on the claimants side.

[mint]

Tony F is right about winter fuel payment.  Apparently, if you were already in receipt of it, you continue to be paid it even if you move to warm, sunny Spain or wherever.

My OH receives it and all relevant authorities, tax, pension, etc. know full well we are here full-time.  We do not and have not since the day we set foot in France kept any sort of address, fictitious or otherwise, in the UK.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="woolybananasbrother"]reading between the lines, it will be very much more difficult or even impossible to get IB and live outside the UK.[/quote]Well, it will certainly be important if the new form of benefit doesn't carry an E121 with it, which is a possibility isn't it?  Something for anybody planning a move after 2009 to be aware of.

[Russethouse]

There were some figures on the news last night. If I remember correctly 47% of claimants are due to 'mental illnesses' and another 12% due to people with back injuries and rheumatism.

It seems unjustified and fraudulent claims cost each UK taxpayer £135 per year.

More regular checks seem the minimum that is going to happen. The truth is the UK just cannot afford to support people who are not genuine claimants.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

unjustified and fraudulent claims [/quote]I just love this expression!  Where do these figures come from?  If claims are known to be fraudulent then the authorities should prosecute the claimants and those who sign them off.  Not hit over the head those least able to defend themselves.  Sledgehammers and nuts spring to mind.

And why the inverted commas around "mental illness", R/H?  Mental illness can be as debitating to the sufferer as any physical illness you care to name.  And it can have fatal results too.

[Boiling a frog]

Due to the small number of confirmed fraud cases found during the

review (3), it is not possible to produce a robust central estimate of the

total annual value of benefit overpaid due to fraud for IBST(H) and

IBLT. However, an indicative upper limit has been produced. It is

estimated that the amount of overpayment is less than £19m, i.e. less than

0.3% of all expenditure on cases in receipt of these rates of IB.

Similarly, it is estimated that the percentage of all IBST(H) and IBLT

cases that are fraudulent is less than 0.5%.

Extracted from The benefit review of incapacity benefit 2001.

 

However what I find puzzling are the howls of protest from alleged genuine claimants about how unfair this new system is going to be.

I would have thought if the new system did away with the perception that most people on IB are scroungers and just do not want to work that would be a good thing for the genuine claimants.

 

[Russethouse]

Well there are degrees of mental illness and I'm just wondering what the authorities include - does stress come under that heading for example ? If your stress is work related will it mean you will be expected to take up or train for another vocation now?

If you are claiming as you have have a bad back, can you no longer run marathons etc ? ......(yes it happened)

There is now a BBC program once a week, I think it's called 'On the fiddle'  - very illuminating........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/closeup/qa/fraud.shtml

This is an interesting article:

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2008/01/is-britain-goinhtml/

It's the same old thing those that abuse the system are spoiling it for those with genuine claims.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Russethouse"]It's the same old thing those that abuse the system are spoiling it for those with genuine claims.[/quote]'twas ever thus - and unfortunately the irresistable temptation to pursue the 'soft' targets, will inevitably be what rules the day [:'(] 

The truth is though that the sheer scale of the numbers of people claiming these benefits, and in a great many cases the duration of those claims, cannot help but give rise to doubts.

I have every sympathy for the genuinely ill or the incapacitated, these are the very raison d'être for the NHS after all, but, hand on heart, which of us here can honestly say that they don't know someone, either in UK or France, who is in receipt of benefits to which there is at least a suspicion they should not really be entitled ?

Your neighbour with the chronic bad back who laid 10 sq/m of paving slabs last week [;-)]

Yes some illnesses can come and go and vary in their intensity but I would venture that it is a minority who are utterly incabable of performing some sort of light work on a part time basis, how physically fit do you need to be to say work in a call center where all you have to do is answer the telephone and read from a script and/or tick a few boxes on a computer screen ?

 

[Hagar]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

how physically fit do you need to be to say work in a call center where all you have to do is answer the telephone and read from a script and/or tick a few boxes on a computer screen ?

 

[/quote]

It's not exactly back-breaking but it can test your sanity and self-worth.

Wonder how many of those people receiving IB for a mental illness/incapacity used to work in call centres ? I know at least two.

rgds

hagar

 

[AnOther]

I'm sure some call center jobs can be be stressful, I know I've stressed a few operators out in my time ([:'(]), but it was of course meant simply as an illustration.

 

[mint]

So, Erns, you are the awkward s o d who kept ringing me about your credit card problems, not to mention your savings bond, etc. etc.

God, trying to get you off the phone and to at least stop shouting long enough for me to explain things to you damn near did my head in.

All us operators at the Call Centre now have a flagging system for when you call.  Next time you ring, don't be surprised if all you get to hear is a bit of Mozart, like for 29 minutes or so until you hang up.

Some people just have no idea the abuse we have to endure.  It's enough to get you to sign off sick and go on IB.

Don't forget, it's people like you who are reducing us to a lifetime of ill health.[6]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Lifted off the DirectGov website....

How much do you get?

Current weekly amounts

Weekly rate	Amount	Amount if you're over State Pension age
short-term (lower rate)	£63.75	£81.10
short-term (higher rate)	£75.40	£84.50
long-term basic rate	£84.50	You're not eligible for long-term basic rate IB

You may be able to get an 'age addition' with your long-term Incapacity Benefit if you were under 45 when you became too ill or disabled to work.

You may be able to get extra benefit for your spouse or civil partner or the person who looks after your children.

Hardly a significant amount to live on Ernie.

It is if you also have a good pension income coming in from one member of the family as seems to be the case for quite a few people here, funny they seem to be able to work OK on their houses and gardens in France but could not lift a finger in the UK.

These measures will not affect the genuine cases who need and deserve IB although they may have to have a more rigourous assessment and go to the UK for it, but hopefully will really hit the shirkers hiding out in France and Spain and about time too.  Its not just the IB they are fiddling they also get 70% of their healthcare costs paid for them and their spouses as they don't pay 8% of that income into the CMU.   Remember, only one person has to get IB for an E121 to be forthcoming, and that believe me saves a lot of people here a small fortune.

Ernie, the unemployment figures have been massaged by IB since Thatcher's days thanks to generous GPs, not just by this government.

Jobs, well how did 1/2 million Poles find one if there aren't any?

[/quote]

[Benjamin]

The first time we learned what an E121 was after having a conversation with an ex-DSS employee shortly after we moved to Spain in 2000. We applied to Newcastle for one, which was promptly issued, on the grounds that Mrs Benjamin was in receipt of Incapacity Benefit. Bear in mind that at the time the Spanish health service was free at the point of delivery.

We took it along to the local Social Services office to register it and we werer asked why I wasn't included as a dependant. I explained that there was nothing wrong with me, I wasn't retired etc etc.

Doesn't matter said the assistant: 'phone Newcastle (her words) and ask them to issue another, which they did. The upshot is that my health cover was then being paid for by the UK Government/taxpayer.

To this day I still can't see the logic of this arrangement but who was I to argue?

Of course when we moved to France a replacement E121 was issued and then we began to realise, as Ron points out above, the real monetary benefit that this arrangement brings to the "dependant".

However, if you want to discuss why a UK taxpayer is denied other benefits such as DLA or Carer's Allowance just because thgey live in another EU country and not the UK.............[6]

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="Benjamin"]
However, if you want to discuss why a UK taxpayer is denied other benefits such as DLA or Carer's Allowance just because thgey live in another EU country and not the UK.............[6] [/quote]

But at least we may get a result on DLA Benjamin - which reminds me, must give them another call today to see whether they want me to send any further papers from my old file considering they don't have any of their own.