IB

[5-element]

[quote user="Rose"]

   Maybe once the review/tightening of the system is sorted then attidtudes and public opinion towards IB may change

[/quote]

Like hell they will.

Just like immigrants to the UK, you know, the ones who get free healthcare, free housing and other handouts, who take jobs away from the locals, who send all the money back home and weaken the British economy. Have you noticed how much public opinion and public attitude have changed about that, in spite of the real facts being widely available? No, it doesn't, public opinion doesn't give a hoot about facts and figures, especially when it comes to finding a good scapegoat.

Now of course, no wonder there are people who are angry and feel cheated, if they seriously believe that irritable bowel, localised osteo-arthritis and Dupuytrens'contracture could secure Incapacity Benefit...

 It is just as well that the decision of whether someone should receive IB is left to doctors and specialists...  I would love to see what would happen if a jury made up of some forum members here, had to make the decision of who exactly is entitled to IB...Just like I notice that nobody has, yet, answered a question I asked before: WHO exactly do YOU think should be entitled to IB? In your opinion, what should be the criteria?

It is grossly objectionable that some punters here feel they can set themselves up as judges and medical experts, believing they are in a position to determine who is well, and who is not, who is curable, and who is not, what is mental illness (a minefield in itself), etc.. There are professionals out there who have trained for many years and have much clinical experience, and they are the only ones who are habilitated to make the decisions.

I also wonder if  those who emit opinions have ever seen the IB assessment  form to be completed by patient and doctors,  and the points system for entitlement to IB? If anyone can find that form, and post it here, it might be an educational opportunity... not that it would be taken by everyone, of course. Don't ever let facts get in the way of your opinions. Scapegoating and stereotyping is so much easier, as history has shown over and over again.

For the record, I will repeat that there should be a clampdown on fraudsters of all kinds. And I do mean, all kinds.

 

 

[5-element]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

I save my empathy for those who deserve it thanks, not feckless fiddlers living in France.

[/quote]

Is it the being in France that particularly gets to you?

Would it be better if the "feckless fiddlers" stayed in the UK?

Who are the people who deserve your empathy? Not sick people? Or if so, which ones?

[ali-cat]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

As always, this subject has generated a lot of opinion and little or no intelligent discussion or empathy.

Back in 'sacred Cow' territory then !

I save my empathy for those who deserve it thanks, not feckless fiddlers living in France.

[/quote]

Well. At last we're finally getting to the truth. Its not about benefit fraud per se or saving the UK taxpayer's hard earned money or even the dignity or work. Its all about 'feckless fiddlers living in France' (the Sun would be proud of that one!).

Anyone in particular in mind RH?

 

[Ron Avery]

Anyone in particular in mind RH?

I'll answer that.  The changes will not affect any person who is unable to do any form of work.

If that is you and Mrs Cat, you have nothing to worry about have you? 

If the changes do affect you, you cannot say that you were not advised to rely on benefits to fund your life in France. this link may remind you of the discussion.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/644657/ShowPost.aspx

The changes which are also backed by the Tories so they will become law, will affect all those who can do a day's work but have chosen not only not to look for a job but also to fraudulently claim a benefit to which they are not entitled to. 

According to your many previous posts on the subject Mr Cat you seem to believe that its not the claimants who are getting this IB wrongly that are at fault, its the system for allowing it.  Well at last the system is changing which you must surely welcome and will now stop the payments and other associated benefits to anyone who is able to do some form of work.  People will be offered jobs like a desk job or even seasonal vegetable or fruit picking, not just do the job that they left or aspired to.  There is of course a choice with this, if the fraudulent claimants who can work don't want to leave Spain, France wherever, they can take early retirement like the rest of us and stay in Spain/France, but not receive the benefit anymore. Seems very fair to me doesn't it you?

[5-element]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

  People will be offered jobs like a desk job or even seasonal vegetable or fruit picking, not just do the job that they left or aspired to. 

[/quote]

People with mobility problems will get work in call-centres (which after all, can be done lying down), and people with cognitive, behavioural, or other mental health problems can go and pick cockles in Morecambe Bay.

There, sorted. It should not be too difficult to persuade an employer to take them on.

And forgive me for interfering with any personal vendetta, I had not realised that Mr and Mrs Cat were specifically targetted, and that Ron A was a spokesperson for Russethouse. It gets a little confusing when you don't know the people involved, as you don't know the subtext.

 

[woolybananasbrother]

Mr and Mrs A Cat have not been targetted at all as far as I can see but are somewhat anxious as they depend for a part of their income on IB. If the system is redesigned, they may well find their life disturbed. This is not to suggest in anyway that they do not deserve the IB they receive (I think it is only Mrs AC), but it might be found that a bad back does not preclude being able to work.

[Ron Avery]

I had not realised that Ron A was a spokesperson for Russethouse

Me, I'm the spokesman for all those against the criminals living anywhere in the world that are falsely claiming benefits, whether it be IB, job seekers, housing benefits but I didn't realise that you were now the spokesperson for those in France falsely claiming IB.

I happen to agree with what RH is saying and yes, if cockle picking is an option then yes send them there.

Are you saying that this work and vegetable picking is good enough only for immigrants and not suitable for stressed out academics and teachers?

You also asked a question, then claimed that it wasn't answered and yet it has been several times. 

Q Who exactly do You think should be entitled to IB? In your opinion, what should be the criteria?

A Any person who is unable to do any form of work.

I'll ask a question, why should any form of benefit related to UK employment be paid to anyone who disqualifies themselves from work by moving  to another country?  You don't get job seekers allowance paid abroad except for a short time, so why should anyone who has decided to move away from the UK get IB?

[AnOther]

[quote user="5-element"]I notice that nobody has, yet, answered a question I asked before: WHO exactly do YOU think should be entitled to IB? In your opinion, what should be the criteria?[/quote]OK I'll answer it then as it's dead easy.

The people who should be entitled to IB are those who qualify for it under the rules as defined by the DWP and applied according to the BMA guidelines.

Despite the heated discussion and polarisation who can honestly say they disagree with that, not me ?

The fundamental problem is that IB has become a virtual passport to benefits for life, indeed a culture, which can never have been the intent and is neither fair nor just. The welfare reforms are a long overdue attempt to correct this.

 

[Cat]

No one is saying that genuinely ill people should not be receiving IB, no one is saying that they should be forced back to work if they are not able to work, how quickly this topic always degenerates into arguments.

I have another question. How is being self employed viewed in relation to IB?  Can one be self employed in the UK and still receive IB?

[woolybananasbrother]

No Cat, that is not allowed. So, running a little gite business to earn a few extra bob is seen as work and would tend to disallow IB. Extensive gardening when you are off for a bad back might also but SOME people are very adept at feigning injury or illness. Just look at the recorded cases to see examples; google Incapacity Benefit fraud.

[Russethouse]

Can any one who is criticizing the fact that IB benefit fiddlers are being commented on tell me what is so special about that sector of scroungers as opposed to any other ?

Earlier in the thread I mentioned being tarred with the same brush as dishonest antique dealers, the difference there was that it was honest dealers who were the harshest and most critical - whats the difference ?

 

[woolybananasbrother]

honest antique dealers? now there is a subject for a wet afternoon's posting!

[Russethouse]

I'm hurt - how dare you !!![:D]

[Rose]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

[quote user="5-element"]I notice that nobody has, yet, answered a question I asked before: WHO exactly do YOU think should be entitled to IB? In your opinion, what should be the criteria?[/quote]OK I'll answer it then as it's dead easy.

The people who should be entitled to IB are those who qualify for it under the rules as defined by the DWP and applied according to the BMA guidelines.

Despite the heated discussion and polarisation who can honestly say they disagree with that, not me ?

The fundamental problem is that IB has become a virtual passport to benefits for life, indeed a culture, which can never have been the intent and is neither fair nor just. The welfare reforms are a long overdue attempt to correct this.

[/quote]

Sounds fair enought to me Ernie... support should be in place for those that need it and any system should not be open to abuse... I really dont see why anyone can have a problem with this? [:$]

[5-element]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 

Me, I'm the spokesman for all those against the criminals living anywhere in the world that are falsely claiming benefits, whether it be IB, job seekers, housing benefits but I didn't realise that you were now the spokesperson for those in France falsely claiming IB.

 

Are you saying that this work and vegetable picking is good enough only for immigrants and not suitable for stressed out academics and teachers?

 

Q Who exactly do You think should be entitled to IB? In your opinion, what should be the criteria?

A Any person who is unable to do any form of work.

I'll ask a question, why should any form of benefit related to UK employment be paid to anyone who disqualifies themselves from work by moving  to another country?  You don't get job seekers allowance paid abroad except for a short time, so why should anyone who has decided to move away from the UK get IB?

[/quote]

 

And where did you see me as a spokesperson "for those falsely claiming IB"?

I was very clear with every post, to condemn  fraudsters. Maybe you only read parts of posts.  I have never claimed to be a spokesperson for anyone! As I said earlier, I have not personally encountered anyone who receives IB for some fake condition, although those people obviously exist, and are causing untold grief to the fraud police.

As for "who should be entitled to IB, what should the criteria be?", as Ernie says, those criteria are established by experts in the field and the guidelines  should be followed as set out. Not rocket science. But somehow, even that is very unsatisfactory for some who think they know much better????

Mentioning, "any" work is interesting. There are people who are very severely mentally and physically challenged, who do engage in some level of activity, which might be considered work. More often than not, it is considered ocupational therapy. But perhaps you  think that if someone can lay a table, even if it takes them a whole afternoon, that should be considered work, therefore, no IB. Or if someone can occasionally feel well enough for a few hours a week  to go for a walk in a park, then they should not get IB. In fact, the only people who should qualify for IB would be quadraplegic, aphasic, and bedbound. Is that what you mean? Fortunately, some other guidelines have been set. Within those guidelines,  some formal or informal therapies might resemble, and sometimes include, bits of "work". - often encouraged by the medics.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting me again, (or perhaps trying unsuccessfully to score a cheap point) when you imply that I said vegetable picking and cockle gathering is work suitable only  for immigrants? Provided work conditions comply with all regulations and health and safety,  it is good enough for anyone who can do it. I don't know much about stressed out academics and teachers, but it is true that manual work and/or physical activity, is excellent for mental stress. So I cannot really see the point you were trying to make.

However, one point keeps recurring: if someone qualifies for long term incapacity benefit (i.e. for a condition which is never going to improve, just like an amputee's limbs are never going to re-grow), then that person has to remain in the UK forever until they die.

According to you, that is a condition sine qua non for continuing to receive Incapacity Benefit. So, the real problem is not so much obtaining IB, but leaving the UK. That has to be punished? This is very strange, because if someone is getting long-term Incapacity Benefit for a severe medical problem what will never improve, what difference does it make whether that person lives in the UK, or in France? I genuinely don't understand what the problem is, except for some odd kind of misplaced jealousy somewhere? Wherever the person is, they still have to live on their £84 a week or so... it doesn't cost the taxpayer any more if the person is here or there?

[Russethouse]

So you don't think that benefit fraudsters of any ilk somehow think that that going 'abroad' will help them evade the checks and inspections required for them to continue on benefit ?

Don't you think you could be just a tad naive ?

[Hagar]

[quote user="5-element"]Wherever the person is, they still have to live on their £84 a week or so... it doesn't cost the taxpayer any more if the person is here or there?[/quote]

Probably costs the taxpayer a lot less if they have emigrated. A lot of ancillary benefits they would no longer qualify for.

rgds

Hagar

[Ron Avery]

Too long I'm afraid I suffer from long post fatigue and like you don't read entire posts, I have just applied for IB for it.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, the rules are changing well before the proposals in the Green paper become law, and although Ernie's definition is correct today, it will not be correct for too much longer, payments in future will  be made on the ability to work.

In October 2008, a new benefit employment and support allowance will replace IB and unemployment benefit for new claimants and will be paid in accordance with the ability to work.  This will be extended progressively to all claimants over time and short term IB will finish by 2010   There will also be assistance for those who are returning to work off IB.  At the end of this, the rate paid to those poor people who really cannot work will go up,  they will receive more than they do at present, who said that would never happen?

These are the figures and expanatory notes

16 July 2008 : Column 473W

Incapacity related benefits: estimated benefit expenditure, £ millions —nominal terms
	2007-08 estimated outturn	2008-09	2009-10	2010-11
Incapacity benefit	6,580	6,210	5,570	4,920
Of which:
Short-term lower rate	280	170	0	0
Short-term higher rate	340	270	20	0
Long-term rate	5,710	5,570	5,370	4,760
Earnings related	240	210	180	160
Other incapacity-related benefits
Severe disablement allowance	750	730	710	680
Income support for sick and disabled	5,230	4,920	4,240	3,670
Return to work credit	0	70	120	120
Statutory sick pay	50	50	50	50
Notes: 1. Figures presented are also available on the DWP website through the following link: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/expenditure.asp 2. Incapacity benefit is payable at short-term lower, short-term higher, long-term rates plus an earnings related rate for ex-invalidity benefit claimants. 3. Incapacity benefit is replaced for new claimants by employment and support allowance in October 2008. 4. Severe disablement allowance closed in April 2001 to new claimants. 5. Income support for the sick and disabled covers incapacity-related income support payments to those who experience short-term sickness, for a period up to one year, and for those who qualify as long-term sick or disabled. 6. Return to work credit is financial support to those experiencing incapacity, (subject to qualifying benefits), for the first year in which the individual returns to work. 7. Figures for statutory sick pay relate to estimated employer recoveries from the Government, based on information held by HM Revenue and Customs. 8. Figures are rounded to the nearest £10 million. Components may not sum to totals due to rounding. 9. All figures relate to individuals of working age.

[Boiling a frog]

Extract from the guidlines to receive IB

 

 

Although the Personal Capability Assessment will normally be applied from the 29th week of incapacity, the procedures for assessment may be started before the 29th week. The ‘own occupation’ test will apply during the first 28 weeks to most customers with a regular occupation.

The ‘own occupation’ test will be based on a statement (form MED 3) from the customer’s own doctor that the customer should refrain from work. Statutory Sick Pay will continue to be paid for up to 28 weeks to most people who work for an employer. Incapacity Benefits will continue to be paid until the assessment process has been completed.

Once the Personal Capability Assessment applies Jobcentre Plus staff will attempt to identify those customers who are exempt from the information gathering stages of the assessment – see ‘Exempt categories’ on pages 14–15. Such cases will be sent to the decision maker for an immediate assessment as to whether the customer should be treated as meeting the threshold of incapacity. Other customers will be sent a questionnaire to complete (form IB50).

The questionnaire will seek the customer’s views on the effects of their medical condition in each of the functional areas in the assessment. The customer will be asked to identify (by a tick in a box) the descriptor in each affected area which best describes the effect of the medical condition, and to give any further information they think should be taken into account. It also gives the customer the opportunity to provide information on any special needs they may have. Special needs may include the customer requiring an interpreter at their examination.

The customer’s own doctor will provide a statement (form MED 4), the first time the Personal Capability Assessment is applied during a spell of incapacity, setting out the diagnosis of the customer’s condition and its disabling effects. The doctor may include additional information, but they will not be required to read, or to comment on, the customer’s information in the questionnaire, or to provide an opinion on whether the customer is incapacitated for benefit purposes.

The customer will then return the questionnaire and statements to Jobcentre Plus. A decision maker will consider whether there is sufficient information to decide entitlement to benefit. Given the wide variability of effects of medical conditions between individuals, the majority of cases will be referred for a medical opinion from an approved healthcare professional.

The approved healthcare professional will consider all the available evidence on the claim. The approved healthcare professional may form the view that they can give advice to the decision maker on the basis of that evidence.

The approved healthcare professional may consider that further information from the customer’s own doctor is required and/or that the customer should be medically examined. No customer will be found as not meeting the threshold of incapacity without either having a medical examination or having been offered one.

The medical examination

An examination does not always mean that the approved healthcare professional will undertake a physical examination of the customer.

 

In order to be eligible for IB you need a score of 15 or more

Descriptors and scores for each activity

Sitting in an upright chair with a back but no arms

Descriptor Points

a Cannot sit comfortably 15

b Cannot sit comfortably for more than 10 minutes

without having to move from the chair because the

degree of discomfort makes it impossible to continue

sitting 15

c Cannot sit comfortably for more than 30 minutes

without having to move from the chair because the

degree of discomfort makes it impossible to continue

sitting 7

d Cannot sit comfortably for more than one hour

without having to move from the chair because the

degree of discomfort makes it impossible to continue

sitting 3

e Cannot sit comfortably for more than two hours

without having to move from the chair because the

degree of discomfort makes it impossible to continue

sitting 0

f No problem with sitting 0

Rising from sitting from an upright chair with a back but no arms

Descriptor Points

a Cannot rise from sitting to standing 15

b Cannot rise from sitting to standing without holding on

to something 7

c Sometimes cannot rise from sitting to standing without

holding on to something 3

d No problem with rising from sitting to standing 0

Bending and kneeling

Descriptor Points

a Cannot bend to touch knees and straighten up again 15

b Cannot either bend or kneel, or bend and kneel, as

if to pick up a piece of paper from the floor and

straighten up again 15

c Sometimes cannot either bend or kneel, or bend

and kneel, as if to pick up a piece of paper from

the floor and straighten up again 3

d No problem with bending and kneeling 0

Standing without the support of another person; may use a walking stick

Descriptor Points

a Cannot stand unassisted 15

b Cannot stand for more than a minute before

having to sit down 15

c Cannot stand for more than 10 minutes before

having to sit down 15

d Cannot stand for more than 30 minutes before

having to sit down 7

e Cannot stand for more than 10 minutes before

having to move around 7

f Cannot stand for more than 30 minutes before

having to move around 3

g No problem with standing 0

Walking on level ground with a walking stick or other aid if normally used

Descriptor Points

a Cannot walk at all 15

b Cannot walk more than a few steps without

stopping or severe discomfort 15

c Cannot walk more than 50 metres without

stopping or severe discomfort 15

d Cannot walk more than 200 metres without

stopping or severe discomfort 7

e Cannot walk more than 400 metres without

stopping or severe discomfort 3

f Cannot walk more than 800 metres without

stopping or severe discomfort 0

g No problem with walking 0

Walking up and down stairs

Descriptor Points

a Cannot walk up and down one stair 15

b Cannot walk up and down a flight of 12 stairs 15

c Cannot walk up and down a flight of 12 stairs

without holding on and taking a rest 7

d Cannot walk up and down a flight of 12 stairs

without holding on 3

e Can only walk up and down a flight of 12 stairs

if going sideways or one step at a time 3

f No problem with walking up and down stairs 0

Manual dexterity

Descriptor Points

a Cannot turn the pages of a book with either hand 15

b Cannot turn a sink tap or the control knobs

on a cooker with either hand 15

c Cannot pick up a coin which is 2.5 centimeters

or less in diameter with either hand 15

d Cannot use a pen or pencil 15

e Cannot tie a bow in laces or string 10

f Cannot turn a sink tap or the control knobs

on a cooker with one hand but can with the other 6

g Cannot pick up a coin which is 2.5 centimetres

or less in diameter with one hand but can with the other 6

h No problem with manual dexterity 0

Reaching

Descriptor Points

a Cannot raise either arm as if to put something

in the top pocket of a coat or jacket 15

b Cannot raise either arm to their head as if

to put on a hat 15

c Cannot put either arm behind their back as

if to put on a coat or jacket 15

d Cannot raise either arm above their head as

if to reach for something 15

e Cannot raise one arm to their head as if to

put on a hat but can with the other 6

f Cannot raise one arm to their head as if to

reach for something but can with the other 0

g No problem with reaching 0

Lifting and carrying by use of upper body and arms

Descriptor Points

a Cannot pick up a paperback book with either hand 15

b Cannot pick up and carry a 0.5 litre carton of

milk with either hand 15

c Cannot pick up and pour from a full saucepan

or kettle of 1.7 litre capacity with either hand 15

d Cannot pick up and carry a 2.5 kilogramme

bag of potatoes with either hand 8

e Cannot pick up and carry a 0.5 litre carton of

milk with one hand but can with the other 6

f Cannot pick up and carry a 2.5 kilogramme

bag of potatoes with one hand but can with the other 0

g No problem with lifting and carrying 0

Vision in normal daylight with glasses

Descriptor Points

a Cannot tell light from dark 15

b Cannot see the shape of furniture in the room 15

c Cannot see well enough to read 16 point

print at a distance greater than 20 centimetres 15

d Cannot see well enough to recognise a friend

across the room at a distance of at least 5 metres 12

e Cannot see well enough to recognise a friend

across the room at a distance of at least 15 metres 8

f No problem with vision 0

Speech

Descriptor Points

a Cannot speak 15

b Speech cannot be understood by family or friends 15

c Speech cannot be understood by strangers 15

d Strangers have great difficulty understanding speech 10

e Strangers have some difficulty understanding speech 8

f No problem with speech 0

Hearing with a hearing aid if used

Descriptor Points

a Cannot hear sounds at all 15

b Cannot hear well enough to follow a television

programme with the volume turned up 15

c Cannot hear well enough to understand someone

talking in a loud voice in a quiet room 15

d Cannot hear well enough to understand someone

talking in a normal voice in a quiet room 10

e Cannot hear well enough to understand someone

talking in a normal voice on a busy street 8

f No problem with hearing 0

Remaining conscious without having epileptic or similar seizures during waking moments

Descriptor Points

a Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered

consciousness at least once a day 15

b Has (as above) at least once a week 15

c Has (as above) at least once a month 15

d Has had (as above) at least twice in the six

months before the test is applied 12

e Has had (as above) once in the six months

before the test is applied 8

f Has had (as above) once in the three

years before the test is applied 0

g Has no problems with consciousness 0

Continence (other than enuresis – bed wetting)

Descriptor Points

a No voluntary control over bowels 15

b No voluntary control over bladder 15

c Loses control of bowels at least once a week 15

d Loses control of bowels at least once a month 15

e Loses control of bowels occasionally 9

f Loses control of bladder at least once a month 3

g Loses control of bladder occasionally 0

h No problem with continence 0

Full text

http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/WorkingAgeBenefits/008025.xml.html

No wonder they are changing the rules if you can qualify for IB just because you cannot pick up a kettle

[5-element]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

So you don't think that benefit fraudsters of any ilk somehow think that that going 'abroad' will help them evade the checks and inspections required for them to continue on benefit ?

Don't you think you could be just a tad naive ?

[/quote]

A while ago here in France, I helped with  the translation of a UK Incapacity benefit form (long, complicated, repetitive). I understand that the patient is being re-assessed every  two years (even though this is a case where no improvement can ever be expected). And it is not a case of "self-assesment", it is a normal, medical re-assesment. In this particular case, each of the French specialists monitoring that person had to write a comprehensive and detailed report.  Whether the assessment is conducted by a British doctor in the UK, or a French doctor in France - each has to assess the patient's ability, or inability, to work, according to the same criteria. Or perhaps you assume that French doctors are more lenient, or less able to detect genuine inability to work?

I cannot say what happens in other countries than France. And I can only talk about IB, I don't know about other benefits, and was under the impression that IB has been so far (since it is all changing anyway), the only transferrable one.

[Cat]

I'm shocked,

The questionnaire will seek the customer’s views on the effects of their medical condition in each of the functional areas in the assessment. The customer will be asked to identify (by a tick in a box) the descriptor in each affected area which best describes the effect of the medical condition...

... The doctor may include additional information, but they will not be required to read, or to comment on, the customer’s information in the questionnaire, or to provide an opinion on whether the customer is incapacitated for benefit purposes...

 

[8-)]

[5-element]

Thank you BAF, that is the form I had in mind.

What a shame I never realised I could have have claimed IB when I couldn't pick up a mug (let alone a kettle) when I had acute and severe tennis' elbow. I could have joined the ranks of the happy fraudsters then. Unless someone, somewhere, had realised it was not sufficient grounds....

Unfortunately it is that sort of jocular remark that turns into derision something that may be a terrible ordeal for some people - who, amongst many other problems, cannot even pick up a kettle. A bit like making fun of "spastics".

 

[Boiling a frog]

It was not a jocular remark

If you cannot pick up and pour a kettle containing 1.7lts with either hand you obtain 15 points and are therefore entitled to IB.

You protest too much

[Cat]

I don't see the connection you're trying to make in that last sentence 5E. 

Are you talking about BaF's remark or your own?  Clearly, from the guidelines posted, the ability to pick up a kettle, or indeed the score from the questionnaire, isn't a deciding factor until 29 weeks of sick leave have been completed.  I'm no expert, but I don't think a doctor would grant 29 weeks sick leave based on someone's ability to pick up a kettle (or even a mug).

 

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Cat"]

I don't see the connection you're trying to make in that last sentence 5E. 

Are you talking about BaF's remark or your own?  Clearly, from the guidelines posted, the ability to pick up a kettle, or indeed the score from the questionnaire, isn't a deciding factor until 29 weeks of sick leave have been completed.  I'm no expert, but I don't think a doctor would grant 29 weeks sick leave based on someone's ability to pick up a kettle (or even a mug).

 

[/quote]

 

Not an expert either but I assume that

Firstly one would need to have some sort of medical condition such as  Severe back pain and then if as a result of the medical condition you were unable to do the task(such as pick up the kettle) you could then be entitled to IB.