IB

[Benjamin]

And the crime rate is falling.  [:-))]

Edit: aimed at WB's bros comment about Government figures.

[woolybananasbrother]

[quote user="Benjamin"]And the crime rate is falling.  [:-))]

Edit: aimed at WB's bros comment about Government figures.

[/quote]

I am just so gullible

[Russethouse]

Frankly it is very interesting to see how many people who are genuine claimants get so quickly offended by others being tired of applicants who are not genuine, claiming.

What is that about ? Surely if the non genuine claimants were weeded out there would be more in the pot for them and other genuine needs.

Just FYI there is a  trade in 'blue badges' and they are sold for cash in many instances.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Frankly it is very interesting to see how many people who are genuine claimants get so quickly offended by others being tired of applicants who are not genuine, claiming.

What is that about ? Surely if the non genuine claimants were weeded out there would be more in the pot for them and other genuine needs.

Just FYI there is a  trade in 'blue badges' and they are sold for cash in many instances.

[/quote]

We get offended on the basis that if something which the majority of claimants know is untrue gets repeated enough times then it passes into "I've heard it so many times so it must be true" realm.

[tegwini]

Well, even government ministers accept that a lot of IB claims are fraudulent - and they say so.

And yes,  a sales rep was on IB - and not the Volvo estate car,  that was another IB claimant, but whatever car he had it was funded because he was on IB.  Many reps do not work long hours.  Surprising that someone on IB Invalidity Benefit can still work?!  Cars may not be entirely free, but the rest of us have to fund the entire cost of a car.

It is common knowledge that Blue badges are illegally used - clearly worth having & worth money- even here in the sticks,  it costs as much as a £  for 30 mins parking in town. Irrelevant who issues them - they are worth money to IB claimants, and I read that there is even a black market where they are sold for as much as £1500   - .http://www.lga.gov.uk/lga/core/page.do?pageId=41821

So thank you for an unjust attempt to assume I don't know what I am talking about- the reform plans to stop the massive frauds are proposed by both sides of the house of parliament, and not just by beleagured UK tax payers like myself.   I am still in the UK & thus can see what is happening, apart from reports in the media - and NO,   I am not a Sun or Mail reader, but prefer the broadsheets.

  If you read my posts you could read that I stated that some people needed and deserved funding, but a great many do not.   Clearly changes to the system will have to come,  sadly  the national deficit will probably reach £1000 billion soon.  A large % of the GDP.      The highest in the EU.   IB is about £16 billion including housing & council tax benefit,  and rising, much more than it was in 1997,  & a far higher % of the UK population is now claiming. 

Taxes - direct & indirect, are the highest they ever been,  and we tax payers  and workers now pay well over 50% of our pay.   Doesn't sound a lot, but most people cannot afford pay any more tax to support fraudsters and the lazy.  The government's net debt is 39.3% of GDP - a huge amount & the highest since the mid 1980s.   11 million people now support the rest of the population of 60+ million, including nearly 3 milion IB claimants.

How can anyone defend IB fraud ?

Tegwini 

[mint]

tegwini's post is of interest to me but not as much as it would have been were I still a UK taxpayer!

As for the badges, "my" couple, who have featured in some of my posts for some months now, have a badge given them back in the UK.  By his own admission, he gave out an almight "ouch" when he was examined by a Pakistani doctor in Wales (who was perhaps a little on unsure grounds) and was enabled to get the badge.

Now, we're not just talking parking here, we're talking about the £5 (or whatever it is now to cross the Severn Bridge) and he gets all of that for free.

Also, he bought top-up insurance here in France one month before his hip replacement in a private clinic.    Nothing to pay and, needless to say, he has not surrendered his Disabled Badge.  So, it's win-win for some, don't you see?

As for me, I fail to see why you get to cross the Severn for free just because you are in receipt of IB.  But thank goodness, none of this affects me too much now that I live in France.

True, lots of other "stuff" affects me but that's not for this thread.

[ali-cat]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Frankly it is very interesting to see how many people who are genuine claimants get so quickly offended by others being tired of applicants who are not genuine, claiming.

What is that about ? Surely if the non genuine claimants were weeded out there would be more in the pot for them and other genuine needs.

Just FYI there is a  trade in 'blue badges' and they are sold for cash in many instances.

[/quote]

If I came on spouting about gite owners not filling in tax forms & taking "cash in hand" payments I suspect you would have a rather heated debate.  Generalisation is a very hard thing to take & incredibility insulting to those affected.

[Russethouse]

 I'm sorry I think thats rubbish - surely as a genuine claimant you should be the harshest critic of those claiming who shouldn't be, just as gite owners would  (and often do) object if others in their trade do not do the correct thing.

From personal experience I can tell you that when I traded in antiques, did my paperwork and paid my taxes I was very disparaging of those who did not.

No one is making it up - the Government (both the main parties) and the media both publicize facts that there are too many cheating the benefit system, and IB is one of those benefits.

Frankly as a UK tax payer I'm' incredibly insulted' as you term it, that it seems among some of you at least, IB benefit recipients seem to be some sort of holy cow that shouldn't be commented on or investigated. What's the problem ? - Genuine claimants have nothing to worry about, do they?

Just an example a typical current attitude to benefit - a lady I know told me her elderly mother gets £60 p.w. in benefit, it is some sort of allowance connected to attendance allowance. Is she ill ? No, she is not, she is fit as a fiddle and uses the money for social outings, dances etc. Her daughter admits that her mother doesn't really justify whatever it is 'but we've all paid in long enough, haven't we?'

 It was suggested that as my mother relies on my sister and I we should claim attendance allowance, the reality is we both see her on a weekly basis, do household tasks and take her shopping etc. Its what we would expect to do for an aged parent, nothing exceptional.Why would be expected to be paid - better the money goes to someone who really deserves it.

I'm told the key is having someone 'in the know' fill in the form.......well I'm sorry, but all these people 'in the know' are costing us a fortune and we just can't afford it any longer.

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Benjamin"].........gets repeated enough times then it passes into "I've heard it so many times so it must be true" realm.[/quote]You mean like keeping your car on UK plates ?

Sorry, sorry sorry..........................[6][6][6]

 

[Panda]

[quote user="ali-cat"][quote user="Russethouse"]

Frankly it is very interesting to see how many people who are genuine claimants get so quickly offended by others being tired of applicants who are not genuine, claiming.

What is that about ? Surely if the non genuine claimants were weeded out there would be more in the pot for them and other genuine needs.

Just FYI there is a  trade in 'blue badges' and they are sold for cash in many instances.

[/quote]

If I came on spouting about gite owners not filling in tax forms & taking "cash in hand" payments I suspect you would have a rather heated debate.  Generalisation is a very hard thing to take & incredibility insulting to those affected.

[/quote]

Just coming in on the end of this debate but I am confused here, to use the above analogy, if I were a gite owner not filling in tax forms then I would be annoyed at the point being made perhaps but if  was a full tax paying gite owner I would be glad that those people who are taking my business whilst not paying taxes are being found out, surely that's the point.  If you are getting IB legitimately then I would be happy that those who do not qualify are found out. 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

And that's the point RH, there is no pot that would give people genuinely on IB more money, it would all - quite rightly - remain in the exchequer and reduce the percentage of GDP that it currently occupies.

And it is the same as the tax return thing - genuine claimants of IB and any other benefit do get incensed because of the thieving b******s who give genuine claimants a bad name, in the same way that legitimate tax payers get incensed by the duckers and divers (aka creative thinkers, also thieving b******s when it comes down to it) and the people who blatantly break the traffic laws about car registration when they are still running round on UK plates three years after bringing the car to France.

And the quote button still isn't working properly.

[Russethouse]

But reading this thread the message is that those who speak against people wrongly claiming IB are somehow in the wrong for passing an opinion, ie 'its incredibly insulting' For goodness sake, I didn't like being tarred with the same brush as antique dealing  tax evaders, but I didn't feel the need to be incredibly insulted - it happens.

[5-element]

[quote user="ali-cat"][quote user="Russethouse"]

Frankly it is very interesting to see how many people who are genuine claimants get so quickly offended

What is that about ? [/quote]

 Generalisation is a very hard thing to take & incredibly insulting to those affected.

[/quote]

And as someone who is not affected by IB one way or another, I find that this level of insinuation, RH, to be very interesting too.

It seems to me that the level of debate is not JUST spurred on by indignation about those who fraudulently obtain benefits. It is also about questioning, over and over again, the well-foundedness of those who receive those benefits, whoever they are. 

I must lead a very sheltered life insofar as I know very few people who do get IB - maybe 2 or 3, and none of them could be in the cheating category. multiple sclerosis confined to a wheelchair,  Crohn's disease with  fecal incontinence , peritoneal dialysis. None of those could be seen to lead a normal life.- except perhaps, hold a paintbrush for a couple of hours, have a telephone conversation, yes, that is possible on good days.

What I have been wondering is, for people on this forum, WHAT kind of activity or life would be acceptable for IB recipients to lead?

In order to comply with the reasons for receiving the benefit, exactly how much do YOU think one should be able to do? Walk, sometimes? Speak? See? Urinate and open their bowels like most people? Stand up? Cook? Make love?

I wonder what criteria would the indignant people apply, if it was left to them. And I get the very uncomfortable feeling that unless one is tetraplegic, bed-bound, aphasic, blind, then one would be called a scrounger.

Somehow this reminds me of the way that rape victims, can be treated: how they have to keep on proving, over and over again, to a variety of people, that they really HAVE been raped, that no, they were NOT willing, or responsible for the rape. Then, even if they fulfil all the conditions, there are always those who don't quite believe that there are genuine rape victims. What is happening here is curiously reminescent of a similar outlook

It is a very difficult line to tread. I do think that there should be a ruthless clampdown on fakers and fraudulent claimers. But why, oh why is it, that in order to do that, there is suspicion immediately cast on everyone, giving only give lip service to the fate of those unfortunate enough to have to live with disabilities - there is enough lack of understanding and compassion for them enough, without adding insult to injury. Most disabled people suffer physically, they also feel like failures and outcasts (often). Many would dearly love to be able to contribute to the world, to  do some work that is going to give them a sense of self-worth, and accomplishment. They would do just about anything to lead a normal life.

They really don't need to be told "You protest too much, maybe YOU have something to hide, eh?" - in most cases, that is really going too far, and that really does bother me with this thread.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="5-element"]

It is a very difficult line to tread. I do think that there should be a ruthless clampdown on fakers and fraudulent claimers. But why, oh why is it, that in order to do that, there is suspicion immediately cast on everyone, giving only give lip service to the fate of those unfortunate enough to have to live with disabilities - there is enough lack of understanding and compassion for them enough, without adding insult to injury. Most disabled people suffer physically, they also feel like failures and outcasts (often). Many would dearly love to be able to contribute to the world, to  do some work that is going to give them a sense of self-worth, and accomplishment. They would do just about anything to lead a normal life.

[/quote]

As I've said previously on here, I'd love to be well enough to do a full week's work.  I can potter around, go to the market etc but one thing a day usually.  I'm not socialising at the moment because I feel so ill.  My spleen is causing me serious problems because it's so enlarged (and no, can't have it out, mortality rate too high), blood numbers are all over the place and feeling generally like merde.  This form of leukaemia isn't immediately life threatening but if I wanted to I could be on the UK's 'special rules' for people terminally ill because of the treatment I receive and the seriousness of my condition.

Could I work?  Yes but as I've said previously, even the DWP washed their hands of me in the UK because I'm 'unemployable' having taken early retirement on health grounds twice and because of my sickness record.  So I set up my own business and eventually that all because too much - ok having clients but they need a service which I could no longer provide.

I potter round, don't do any DIY/renovation but maintain our garden, could I work, probably but only for a couple of hours a day and atm, not at all.

When people meet me I look and sound fine - a side effect of the condition is that my face always looks tanned and red, caused by the blood imbalance but it dosn't detract from the fact that if I were in the UK I could get a blue badge (quite rightly I don't need one so wouldn't apply for one) I would get an Oyster card in London as premarutely retired on health grounds and IB and DLA.  But to many who meet me casually, they's wonder why I get any form of benefit - if I told them I was getting it - because I look so well and seem so healthy.

As my specialist tells me, apart from the PRV/leukaemia, chronic asthma, chronic hypertension caused by the PRV, gout and all the other things that PRV people have, I'm fit and well - and when they're all sorted out, he'd be happy to see me go back to work.

Not saying anything else on this IB issue now - got a blinding headache, a spleen 10/12 times bigger than it should be, chronic pain in my side, continual nausea, raging pruritis which is so bad I want to cut myself to make it go away and I haven't had a decent night's sleep for a week.

Ill gotten gains if I get IB and could theoretically work - go figure!!  And if you get IB and really really don't deserve it, well, I'd get banned for giving my opinion of you!!

 

[Polremy]

Please, why can't you all stop going on about people you are aware of who are claiming this benefit and. shouldn't be.

Just report them.

There is a number to phone and nobody will know it was you.

Then the powers that be are duty bound to investigate.

Then you can relax and know that you have done your civil duty and all this bitterness will disappear.

[woolybananasbrother]

[quote user="Puzzled"] The question was asked in Parliament some time ago, re how many claimants live overseas. Other than envy, I don't see where a person is ill or incapacitated really matters.

[/quote]

The problem with people who live abroad is that is MIGHT be more difficult to be sure that they are not working, their chronic bad back having had undergone a miracle cure for example, or that the doctor is carrying out the health checks to the standard required. Seems reasonable to me.

This however does not preclude people being outside the UK at all though under the proposed new regime this does not look possible.

[Russethouse]

Oh, come on, I've had IBS, colitis etc, my OH has Dupuytrens contracture

Sponsored Link

and rheumatism in his hands and is a typesetter/graphic artist, we never claimed, perhaps we hould ?

 

[woolybananasbrother]

what illness is 'sponsored link' RH. And yes you should have claimed.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Benjamin"]

They just come onto public fora like this and post drivel. When asked to substantiate this with facts it is simply ignored.

 

[/quote]

Still no facts emerging.

Try this report.

http://www.delni.gov.uk/incapacity_benefit_survey_report.pdf

[AnOther]

A fascinating document Benjamin (taken the liberty of making it a live link).

At 77 pages (the last 30 being tables and credits) I've obviously only glossed over it but I would strongly suggest that anybody seriously interested in the subject take the time to read at least some of it.

.

[ali-cat]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Oh, come on, I've had IBS, colitis etc, my OH has Dupuytrens contracture

Sponsored Link

and rheumatism in his hands and is a typesetter/graphic artist, we never claimed, perhaps we hould ?

 

[/quote]

Claimed what – a medal?

Sorry RH but there is a difference between having a little discomfort (nearly every symptom you mentioned plus many more either Mr Cat or I worked with for over 20 years) & suddenly becoming so ill that work is absolutely impossible. At the start of this thread it was said that surely all IB claimants could find some sort of menial work (I think the example given was working in a call-centre) which suggests that no-one on IB is deserving of it. How can I not see that as a personal insult?

If yet another10 page thread about cheating, lying antique dealers was here I am sure even you would start to feel it as a personal slur on your profession.

I have never said there are no cheats, or described IB recipients as a “holy cow”. If I knew someone who was fraudulently claiming (& not through 2^nd hand Chinese whispered type stories) I would not hesitate to report them & wish more people would feel the same.

Why would we have willingly given up jobs when we were financially secure for the first time in our lives to have to start from scratch, constantly worrying about money? We didn't choose to be in the situation we are in nor would we want anyone else to have to live the way we do now.

This thread has only demonstrated that some members of this forum see all IB claimants as cheats or “blood sucking leeches” (I believe that was the expression used earlier) even if they make some backhanded comment about “genuine cases” or not.

[Cat]

Bumped back into active posts view.

[Russethouse]

Do you know what Dupuytrens is ? Why do you see the need to to view expressions such as genuine cases as 'backhand' ?

The fact is that the UK Government is going to spend a great deal of time and money getting those that can work back in a job, if people are not available for those jobs they will not get the benefit, end of.

I must have a broader back than you - lots of 'antique dealers' didn't declare their earnings, but the government cracked down and started sending inspectors to Car Boots, asking antique centres and fair organisers for details of stall holders, watching ebay - that weeded out a fair few and a similar thing will happen with benefits, (all benefits)cheats will be weeded out

 

[Hagar]

Benjamin - you ask for facts - Let's start with the original article in the Independent - just a simple political point scoring exercise ("we told you so" kind of thing ) - shame on the Independent for publishing it.

Secondly your survey - Interesting as it is , it is still just a survey and limited to N.Ireland which has historically had its own special problems with employment and can hardly be considered representative of the Uk as a whole.

At the risk of someone shouting "lies, damned etc" here are the Governments own figures.

The Government’s expenditure plans 2005–06 to 2007–08

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/dwp/2005/dr05/tables/analysis.asp

“People of working-age

Spending is stable at just over a quarter of the total over the forecast period; most spending is through income-related benefits or Incapacity Benefit.

Spending on this group is dominated by benefits aimed at unemployed people and those unable to work. Generally, claims for key benefits¹¹⁰ from unemployed people and lone parents are falling (each group accounts for around 15–18 per cent of all working-age claimants). The trend in numbers of sick or disabled claimants is flat, at around 64 per cent of the total. Overall, benefit spending on working age people is forecast to fall by just over 1 per cent a year in real terms up to 2007–08.

The largest proportion of spending on working-age people comes from income-related benefits (mostly Income Support, Jobseeker's Allowance, Housing and Council Tax Benefits), which account for nearly two-thirds of the total”.

As far as fraudulent claims are concerned again the Government’s own figures show that IB is barely in the top five. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070130/text/70130w0023.htm

The top four are Income Support, Pensions, Child Benefit and JSA (the old unemployment benefit).

Interesting that you never hear of a politician calling for a crackdown on pension fraud.

Rgds

Hagar

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="ali-cat"]At the start of this thread it was said that surely all IB claimants could find some sort of menial work (I think the example given was working in a call-centre) which suggests that no-one on IB is deserving of it. How can I not see that as a personal insult?[/quote]The comment was mine ali-cat and I stand by it but if you care to revisit it (22/07/2008, 15:12) you'll see that that is not what I said or suggested and that your interpretation is a self serving gross distortion. I used the call center example to make the point that not all work is physically or mentally demanding, that does not define it as menial.